SE Finecast Midland LMS 4F - Kit Build

[ianLMS]

Following on from the Airfix 4F topic (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49173-airfix-4f/) where the merits of the old model was discussed, and after attempts at modifying an Airfix 4F, building out my first etched kit (LMS Horsebox - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132943-falcon-brass-kit-lms-horsebox-dia-1956/) and am currently working through my first loco kit (Craftsman Johnson Midland 1P 0-4-4T - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134455-craftsman-0-4-4t-lms-1p-kit-build/) , I decided to take the plunge and I purchased an old SE Finecast LMS 4F loco and tender kit from Ebay.

 

It appears the kit is the newer version from SE Finecast - F159 with the FC159 chassis etches, however, the box looks very old and exactly the same as the Wills Finecast kit so not 100% sure.

 

The kit has brass frames and various etched parts, and the body is all white metal. I needed to purchase wheels, motor and gearbox so have gone for the Romford wheel set for the 4F. I have also purchased a Canon 1620 motor and GB8/15 50:1 two-stage gearbox (Comet) from Wizard Models. 

 

I will commence the build once I have completed the Craftsman 1P, but am looking for any hints, tips or things to look out for before embarking on this one.

 

Thanks

Ian

[MarkC]

You may find that the body is old - it was originally intended to fit onto the Triang 0-6-0 chassis.However, SEF did produce an etched chassis at one point, which matches the inaccurate Triang wheelbase, allowing a better looking model. Easy check - the accurate wheelbase is 8' x 8' 6", which is 32mm x 34mm. As a stand alone model, though, it will look fine

[uax6]

Are you going to solder it together? I hadn't soldered a w/metal kit before the weekend before last, and I have to say is addictive.

 

The tools I use are:

Fibreglass pencil (For cleaning joint faces)

Files (For cleaning up the castings)

Lidl temperature controlled soldering iron (300* for general use, 220-230* for wiping to fill voids)

70* solder

9% (13% would probably be better) liquid flux

Cheep kiddies style plastic paintbrush (for applying the flux)

 

Have fun, and if you do melt anything, call Dave at SEF and a replacement can be bought.

 

Looking forward to seeing progress.

[hayfield]

Ian

 

The 4F is one of the older kits which Southeastern Finecast have revised, but there have been several versions

 

As said the original version was a Wills model designed to fit on to the Triang Jinty chassis. from memory then Wills made a cast whitemetal chassis available. I think next under the Will Finecast brand and possibly under the early Southeastern Finecast banner an etched brass chassis (without brake gear) I think FC102 comes to mind was the tender version of the Jinty chassis. Followed by the revised kit from Southeastern Finecast which has a cab interior.

 

The FC159 is the updated new chassis, so if its not got either FC102 or FC202  etched into the fret you have a new style chassis 

 

As for the loco body, the easiest way to distinguish it is, does it have a firebox backhead and cab detail, if so its the updated loco kit. If not then a large self addressed envelope with a stamp on with a request for a kit parts list, will be supplied by Dave and you can order the parts required to bring it up to date. 

 

Its not uncommon for an old kit to have a new chassis with it, the original kit was a bodyline kit and many modellers belatedly bought new chassis. Do check (if an old body) that the footplate fits the chassis, if it doesn't either modify the casting or buy a new one 

[ianLMS]

Thanks Andy,

I do intend to solder, and the kit building bug has definately got me! I am in the middle of my first loco kit build which is moslty brass with white metal fittings. I have soldered the WM parts on and so far, I am relatively confident I wont make a complete hash of it.

 

I use a temp controlled de-soldering station which has a 200-450 soldering iron, but for WM, it has a 100-450 degree hot air blower. Its great as all I do is snip off a little 70 degree solder, lay it next to the join, flood in the flux and apply the hot air. Its hot enough to quickly melt the solder, but leaves the part intact unless you linger!

 

Hopefully, I will be starting the kit in a couple of weeks. 

 

Cheers.

Ian

Edited July 10, 2018 by ianLMS

[ianLMS]

Ian

 

The 4F is one of the older kits which Southeastern Finecast have revised, but there have been several versions

 

As said the original version was a Wills model designed to fit on to the Triang Jinty chassis. from memory then Wills made a cast whitemetal chassis available. I think next under the Will Finecast brand and possibly under the early Southeastern Finecast banner an etched brass chassis (without brake gear) I think FC102 comes to mind was the tender version of the Jinty chassis. Followed by the revised kit from Southeastern Finecast which has a cab interior.

 

The FC159 is the updated new chassis, so if its not got either FC102 or FC202  etched into the fret you have a new style chassis 

 

As for the loco body, the easiest way to distinguish it is, does it have a firebox backhead and cab detail, if so its the updated loco kit. If not then a large self addressed envelope with a stamp on with a request for a kit parts list, will be supplied by Dave and you can order the parts required to bring it up to date. 

 

Its not uncommon for an old kit to have a new chassis with it, the original kit was a bodyline kit and many modellers belatedly bought new chassis. Do check (if an old body) that the footplate fits the chassis, if it doesn't either modify the casting or buy a new one 

Thank you John - its definately the newer kit then - the chassis etch has FC159 on it and the kit has the backhead included with it. 

[hayfield]

Thank you John - its definately the newer kit then - the chassis etch has FC159 on it and the kit has the backhead included with it. 

 

It may be that the previous owner bought the parts to upgrade it. What's on the kits instructions ?

[ianLMS]

It may be that the previous owner bought the parts to upgrade it. What's on the kits instructions ?

Good point - i will check tonight when I get in. 

[Gordon A]

Could we have some pictures of the kit please?

 

Gordon A

[ianLMS]

Could we have some pictures of the kit please?

 

Gordon A

I will take some tonight and post them tomorrow

[Barry O]

try to avoid glassfiber pencils for "cleaning" joints.. better to use some fine wet and dry. The glass fiber can leave a slight residue.

 

Baz

[ianLMS]

Thank you Baz - I am finding that with my other kit where the tiny fibres are trapped in with the flux residue and are embedded in the joins. Hopefully a wash with viakal and a toothbrush will remove them.

[hayfield]

Good point - i will check tonight when I get in. 

 

 

Good to see you are building a nice range of differing makes of kit, I enjoyed making a Craftsman kit several years ago. Dave Ellis has really taken the Wills kits and greatly improved them. The chassis being a good example of a balance between detail and buildability  

[ianLMS]

I am happy to try most kits if I think I can manage them. I started off with the plastic Parkside wagons, then the brass Falcon horsebox before I was offered the Craftsman kit. I enjoy a challenge and I am really enjoying learning as I go. The instructions could always be better for a complete novice like me, but as long as I am happy with it, thats all that matters. I dont intend selling them or making them for anyone else, so mistakes can be easily ignored on my layout.

 

Would would really be the icing on the cake is if other modellers gave it a go based on me sharing my experiences.

 

Ian

[ianLMS]

As requested, here are pics of the kit

[hayfield]

Ian

 

Definitely a Southeastern Finecast kit, and a much better version than an upgraded Wills kit, as not only do you have the correct cab details (rather than a big hole) but have the extra etchings and castings as well as the scale chassis.

 

Looking at the other thread you bought it at a decent discount, and probably far cheaper than buying an old Wills kit and buying the chassis, etchings and extra castings separately. Dave does a great job supplying spares, but like all things spare parts will be dearer simply due to the cost of handling and splitting up parts from casting sprues.

 

The building of the kits should be quite straight forward as its quite basic, might be worth buying an etched chassis for the tender. Would be extra work and a bit of kit bashing/modification . Iain Rices books on loco construction are not only very good reads, but are also packed with lots of very useful instructions and tips

[ianLMS]

Thank you the response which has given me much more confidence. I believe there is a fret for the tender, just not easily seen in the photo's. From what I can tell, it has the chassis frames with it (see photo below). 

 

Hopefully I wont need to order too many spares providing I dont destroy them when I solder it all together. I am not 100% sure if the Comet gearbox/motor I have ordered will fit, but I guess we will find out soon.

 

It will be a couple of weeks before I get around to starting, which is time for Markits to send me the wheels (took around 4 weeks last time).

Edited July 11, 2018 by ianLMS

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I am not 100% sure if the Comet gearbox/motor I have ordered will fit, but I guess we will find out soon...

 The 16mm motor width in particular will be a challenge. Not saying it won't go, but it will require great care in positioning, and some of the castings very much reduced in wall thickness. If you want a fully concealed two stage drive with the whole mechanism in the loco with no visible external compromises, a 1220 motor would be a significantly easier job.

[ianLMS]

 The 16mm motor width in particular will be a challenge. Not saying it won't go, but it will require great care in positioning, and some of the castings very much reduced in wall thickness. If you want a fully concealed two stage drive with the whole mechanism in the loco with no visible external compromises, a 1220 motor would be a significantly easier job.

Thank you for that. In the instructions it mentioned that they used a 1620 motor in a vertical position using the rear wheel for the gear drive, so I will give it a try. If not, I will hunt down a 1220 and I am sure the 1620 will get used in future kits. 

[hayfield]

Thank you the response which has given me much more confidence. I believe there is a fret for the tender, just not easily seen in the photo's. From what I can tell, it has the chassis frames with it (see photo below). 

 

Hopefully I wont need to order too many spares providing I dont destroy them when I solder it all together. I am not 100% sure if the Comet gearbox/motor I have ordered will fit, but I guess we will find out soon.

 

It will be a couple of weeks before I get around to starting, which is time for Markits to send me the wheels (took around 4 weeks last time).

 

Ian

 

I missed the chassis fret, thought it might have one

 

Thank you for that. In the instructions it mentioned that they used a 1620 motor in a vertical position using the rear wheel for the gear drive, so I will give it a try. If not, I will hunt down a 1220 and I am sure the 1620 will get used in future kits. 

 

I see there is a gearbox included, or is it the one you bought, I prefer High Level gear boxes as they seem to work straight from the box, where as with the older style motor mounts always seem to need a tweak or two.

 

If the motor is too big, save it for the next job and buy a smaller one

[ianLMS]

 

I see there is a gearbox included, or is it the one you bought, I prefer High Level gear boxes as they seem to work straight from the box, where as with the older style motor mounts always seem to need a tweak or two.

 

If the motor is too big, save it for the next job and buy a smaller one

The gearbox in the photo is what came with the Craftsman 0-4-4T kit which is currently spare and meant for the XO4 motor. I just happened to put it in the 4F box for safe keeping.  I used the High Level Kit for the 0-4-4T with the motor that came with it (a 1624 I believe), but the Comet motor/gearbox set option seemed a good try as the SE instructions mention it. The motor or bearbox wont go to waste if it doesnt fit. That combination can be used with the Comet chassis for the Airfix 4F conversion (as recommended by Comet).

[ianLMS]

I am almost at the stage where I can commence the build on the SEF 4F. Unpacked everything last night, new 1620 motor and gearbox from Comet (Wizard) has arrived and had a good read through the instructions. Checked out the frame spacers. For some reason, the screws are too large to fit in the spacer. I assume the proper screws were removed from the kit at some stage. I have ordered new frame spacers from Phoenix which should be here in the next day or two. 

 

All being well, the build will commence after next week. I checked the motor in the firebox and it will fit, but as mentioned earlier, i will need to ensure axle/gearbox/motor positioning is exact in oder fo rit to sit properly inside the body. A few dry runs will help. Failing that, a 1220 motor will be ordered which will give me a bit more flexibility.

 

Looking at it closely, it looks a very nice kit indeed. 

 

Looking forward to getting stuck in!

 

Ian

[ianLMS]

Construction has commenced!!!

 

Gearbox has been constructed, motor mounted and tested. A little noisy due to the metal gears but seems to run ok in both directions. 

 

I eventually found the correct screws for the frame spacers so was able to bolt up the frames and test fit the wheels, rods and gearbox/motor. All fitted well except for a little tight spot. I soldered up the axle bushes to see if that made a difference, but it remained so will probably very gently open up the rod holes a little with a reamer. After test fitting the gearbox in the chassis, the gearbox will snag one of the etched spacers. I can cut this down slightly without too much of an issue though.

 

3 of the wheels in the Romford wheel pack were non-insulated. Rather than run a "live" chassis, I will order 3 more insulated wheels so will need pick-ups both sides. Looking at the Markits catalogue, it appears the wheels are 21mm 16 Spoke for the 4F (5'3"). 

 

For the body, I managed to line up and solder the white metal side footplates and I dry fitted boiler and firebox. Loose fitted, the firebox drops just nicely over the motor (1620 in the vertical position) and hopefully still leaves room for the decoder/stay-alive. 

 

Hopefully I will work on it a couple of evenings this week and get some pics together.

 

Ian

Edited August 20, 2018 by ianLMS

[hayfield]

Ian

 

Good to see you are still at it, speaking with the chaps on the Southeastern Finecast stand at one of the shows I enquired as to the meshing issues I had with a kit built Q1 I got off eBay. The reply I got is its best th run in the motor mount on the bench prior to fitting into the chassis adjusting the meshing by adding some shim between the motor and mount face plate.

 

As for the chassis try it without a motor and gearbox, to see if it will run freely in both directions simply by elevating the track its on. 

[ianLMS]

Cheers for that John. I will have a look tonight. Much appreciated.

 

Ian