Jump to content




The 2018 OO Wishlist is now live - please read the Guide pages here before voting.


Photo
- - - - -

Open Coach Windows - British Outline?





  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#1 Right Away

Right Away

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 125 posts
  • LocationNear 75A

Posted 09 July 2018 - 20:54

Not certain if this has been broached before, but here goes.

When considering the outstanding detail of British outline rolling stock achieved by manufactures today, I have pondered as to why there appears to have been no attempt to render at least some carriage windows in an open/semi open position.

Fleischman have produced some compartment coaches with these features which were particularly attractive.

British r-t-r 4mm and 2mm stock might well benefit from having some compartment windows in an open position thus relieving the uniform monotony of having a train looking as though it has just been through the washer or operating during the "train heating season".

Likewise, main line stock with some open top lights or an end door with the window down would add visual variety.

I cannot bring it upon my wallet (or my expensive models) to wield a scalpel in an attempt to achieve these kind of alterations. It is particularly pleasing to give close scrutiny of my stock and so from a personal viewpoint, the eye would be easily drawn to any half hearted surgical attempt.

Might it be possible to hope that Messrs H or B would take up the challenge?



#2 Dunsignalling

Dunsignalling

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,614 posts
  • LocationMilepost 154 3/4

Posted 09 July 2018 - 21:07

The problem with incorporating open lights in r-t-r coaches is that (unless it could be randomised in some way) there will be an inevitable "repeat" effect in a long rake.

 

There is also a very good practical reason for avoiding open windows on model coaches, especially for those whose layouts are situated in attics and garden sheds.

 

Preventing the ingress of small wildlife with consequent appearance of tiny, but massively overscale, webs in one's carriage interiors, along with the remains of the prey caught therein.  :jester:

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 10 July 2018 - 07:38 .

  • Agree x 5
  • Funny x 1
  • Like x 1

#3 wirey33

wirey33

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 401 posts

Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:34

In this age of digital control could we have a whole set of passengers protruding from various windows, only to withdraw and close the windows behind them when the train leaves the station?

 

On pre-order from Hornby now.....

 

R9876 - Animated Platform Figure c/w Hankerchief

R9877 - 1980's Window Hanging Railway Enthusiast

R9878 - Running Fare Dodger / Pursuing Revenue Protection Staff (Era 9)


  • Funny x 5

#4 31A

31A

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,195 posts

Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:39

The Hornby Gresley Buffet Car has some of the ventilators modelled in the  open position.

 

ISTR the original Bachmann Thompson coaches had some droplights moulded in a partially open position, but they spoilt the effect by making the glazing continuous behind the windows!


  • Agree x 1

#5 russ p

russ p

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,390 posts
  • Locationnorth norfolk

Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:07

In this age of digital control could we have a whole set of passengers protruding from various windows, only to withdraw and close the windows behind them when the train leaves the station?
 
On pre-order from Hornby now.....
 
R9876 - Animated Platform Figure c/w Hankerchief
R9877 - 1980's Window Hanging Railway Enthusiast
R9878 - Running Fare Dodger / Pursuing Revenue Protection Staff (Era 9)


Limited edition set with collector's danger do not lean out of the window sticker with synthetic blood filling syringe and spare head.
  • Like x 3
  • Funny x 2

#6 cheesysmith

cheesysmith

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,797 posts
  • Locationescafield

Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:11

Limited edition set with collector's danger do not lean out of the window sticker with synthetic blood filling syringe and spare head.

 

Someones been watching too much of the young ones. Would said headless person be a punk?

 

On a serious note, the weather we have in the UK makes windows closed a normal thing, except the 1 month of the year when we see that big yellow ball in the sky.


  • Like x 3
  • Agree x 1

#7 Andy Hayter

Andy Hayter

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,964 posts
  • LocationFrance

Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:16

Not certain if this has been broached before, but here goes.

When considering the outstanding detail of British outline rolling stock achieved by manufactures today, I have pondered as to why there appears to have been no attempt to render at least some carriage windows in an open/semi open position.
 

 

Looking at many historical photos of trains in motion - rather than just about to arrive or departing a station - and very few have obviously open windows.  The exception of course (as suggested humorously above) are the enthusiast specials.  But look back to 30s, 40s 50s pictures of trains underway and I doubt you will find (m)any pictures with open windows.


  • Agree x 2

#8 34theletterbetweenB&D

34theletterbetweenB&D

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,596 posts

Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:32

...an end door with the window down would add visual variety.

I cannot bring it upon my wallet (or my expensive models) to wield a scalpel in an attempt to achieve these kind of alterations. It is particularly pleasing to give close scrutiny of my stock and so from a personal viewpoint, the eye would be easily drawn to any half hearted surgical attempt.
 

A door drop light at the end of a vehicle is the easy one as the glazing panel end is removed, and a DIY top bar of the droplight then added to the aperture. I think you have to resolve on DIY for this one, because there is an issue: with the droplight down the interior is placed on view, and the excessive plainness or even unpainted constructional features then revealed are a tad unrealisitic, and also have to be attended to ...


  • Agree x 2

#9 SRman

SRman

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,371 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, Australia

Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:44

Even older models have done this in the past, although it is not a common feature. I'm thinking of the Hornby class 110 DMU, very good at the time it came out but not up to current standards. Quite a few of the opening vents in the main windows are modelled in the open position.

One down side of leaving windows open is the dust can get in, but it is much more difficult to get out again. I found this on a semi-scratchbuilt coach (a Maunsell open 2nd for a pull-push set) I did many years ago, where I left some of the large drop windows open or half open.



#10 Legend

Legend

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,758 posts

Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:14

Isn't the reality of the British climate (admittedly not at the moment) that its usually cold or wet and that therefore on average windows are more likely to be closed than open?



#11 Steamport Southport

Steamport Southport

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Location27C

Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:34

Looking at many historical photos of trains in motion - rather than just about to arrive or departing a station - and very few have obviously open windows.  The exception of course (as suggested humorously above) are the enthusiast specials.  But look back to 30s, 40s 50s pictures of trains underway and I doubt you will find (m)any pictures with open windows.

 

It was the guards job to close them when not in use. Still done on many heritage railways. Mainly to stop the train getting full of soot/steam and if you were in the first carriage, water from the water troughs.

 

Also have you noticed the way that older people close windows on trains and buses? Mainly to keep down noise, but also because it was "the done thing".

 

 

 

Jason


  • Friendly/Supportive x 1

#12 caradoc

caradoc

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,769 posts

Posted 10 July 2018 - 11:14

I regularly close the hopper windows on the Class 314 EMUs on my local route, because otherwise there is a howling draught through the coach once the train gets going ! Only on the hottest days do they really need to be open, as all the doors opening at every station ventilates the train quite effectively, especially in winter. 


  • Agree x 1

#13 Dunsignalling

Dunsignalling

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,614 posts
  • LocationMilepost 154 3/4

Posted 10 July 2018 - 11:17

Even older models have done this in the past, although it is not a common feature. I'm thinking of the Hornby class 110 DMU, very good at the time it came out but not up to current standards. Quite a few of the opening vents in the main windows are modelled in the open position.

One down side of leaving windows open is the dust can get in, but it is much more difficult to get out again. I found this on a semi-scratchbuilt coach (a Maunsell open 2nd for a pull-push set) I did many years ago, where I left some of the large drop windows open or half open.

Yes, for such a feature to gain wide acceptance, coaches would need to be made rather easier to open up than is currently the case, to facilitate occasional cleaning.

 

John


  • Like x 1

#14 Il Grifone

Il Grifone

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,634 posts
  • LocationEssex next to the LT&SR and Sardinia Costa dei Grifoni

Posted 10 July 2018 - 17:22

Most of the windows didn't open anyway*. Usually there were only the door droplights plus the small ventilators on Mk I coaches. The latter borne a label on the inside warning of draughts if they were opened more than a couple of inches.

 

Pre-nationalisation droplights (GWR at least) had a leather strap for opening them. This was often missing. Rumour had it (I was too young at the time to be concerned about it) that they made good razor strops. I would have thought that the holes in them at roughly six inch intervals (estimate from memory) made this use difficult.

 

It's quite easy to modry a droplight anyway (provided you can get into the coach!). File away part of the frame, add a new top and cut the glazing to suit.



#15 Steamport Southport

Steamport Southport

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Location27C

Posted 10 July 2018 - 18:52

I know we are talking about RTR, but some of the droplights on Comet sides/kits are down. Mainly the ones in the guards compartment or vestibule end.

 

 

 

 

Jason



#16 timbowilts

timbowilts

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 540 posts
  • LocationCalne

Posted 10 July 2018 - 20:34

One point to bear in mind is that opening the window was definitely Not A Good Thing in steam hauled days! It was also not a good idea if you were nearthe front in diesel-hauled trains. Both scenarios were/are due to the resulting ingress of soot and smuts, even with diesel engine exhaust.

Tim T

#17 Phil Bullock

Phil Bullock

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,238 posts
  • Location12" to the foot - Churchdown, Glos 4mm to the foot - Abbotswood junction

Posted 10 July 2018 - 21:39

One point to bear in mind is that opening the window was definitely Not A Good Thing in steam hauled days! It was also not a good idea if you were nearthe front in diesel-hauled trains. Both scenarios were/are due to the resulting ingress of soot and smuts, even with diesel engine exhaust.

Tim T

 

Open windows with diesels Tim? why ever not?

 

This thread served to remind me that there was a mini project sat on the workbench not started, so after half an hour this evening....

 

On a spring evening in 1969 a maroon Warship had charge of the last down train on the Cotswold line....the front droplight immediately behind the loco was free and beckoned - all the way from Oxford to Worcester Foregate Street. The Cotswold line runs through lovely countryside, we scattered the pheasants as we ran...

 

 

Thanks to Alan Butler at Modelu for the figure.

 

Post edited to add better pictures taken in evening light...

 

 

DSC01058.JPG

 

 

Phil


Edited by Phil Bullock, 12 July 2018 - 19:00 .

  • Like x 10
  • Craftsmanship/Clever x 3

#18 The Johnster

The Johnster

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,062 posts
  • LocationThe mean streets of inner-city Cardiff

Posted 10 July 2018 - 22:29

The leather straps on most pre-nationalisation stock (I believe some Bullieds and Thompsons had the sliding droplights as fitted to mk1s), lifted the droplight frame off it's ledge and you were able to adjust it's opening with a brass knob over which the holes in the strap engaged.  This meant that the droplight was at a more perpendicular angle to the tumblehome of the coach (or parallel in the case of Hawkworths which had vertical sides and no tumblehome) when the window was opened, which was very apparent if some of the windows were reflecting light at that angle.  This is an essential part of the appearance and not easy to incorporate into a model.

 

Some coaches, notably Pullmans and the GWR Centenaries, had 'Beclawat' sliding droplights in the compartment windows, but this was not common in the UK; I believe it was a feature of a lot of steam age European stock, though, whereas sliding ventilators were rare over there.

 

The BR mk1 CK had an inward opening light in it's own separate frame, hinged at the bottom, in the central of the 3 second class compartments; I have no idea why and have never seen a model of one opened.  In later years most were screwed shut anyway.

 

Windows in non-gangwayed stock seem to have been more commonly open in warm weather than main line stock, presumably because the ventilation was not so good in those vehicles and the trains ran more slowly anyway.  The NER Tyneside electric stock frequently ran with the sliding doors open in warm weather, despite having deep sliding ventilators, a thing unimaginable now but nobody ever seems to have fallen out of one!


Edited by The Johnster, 10 July 2018 - 22:33 .


#19 Steamport Southport

Steamport Southport

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Location27C

Posted 10 July 2018 - 23:54

The inward opening window was for carrying patients on stretchers.

 

https://www.flickr.c...009/5888641136/

 

 

 

 

Jason


  • Informative/Useful x 1

#20 timbowilts

timbowilts

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 540 posts
  • LocationCalne

Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:04

Open windows with diesels Tim? why ever not?
 
This thread served to remind me that there was a mini project sat on the workbench not started, so after half an hour this evening....
 
On a spring evening in 1969 a maroon Warship had charge of the last down train on the Cotswold line....the front droplight immediately behind the loco was free and beckoned - all the way from Oxford to Worcester Foregate Street. The Cotswold line runs through lovely countryside, we scattered the pheasants as we ran...
 
attachicon.gifDSC01057.JPG
 
Thanks to Alan Butler at Modelu for the figure.
 
Phil


Phil, I suppose in 1969 we didn’t know all the nasties that are in diesel exhaust!

Tim T
  • Agree x 1

#21 jonny777

jonny777

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,101 posts
  • LocationSomerset (but exiled yellowbelly)

Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:33

It was the guards job to close them when not in use. Still done on many heritage railways. Mainly to stop the train getting full of soot/steam and if you were in the first carriage, water from the water troughs.

 

Also have you noticed the way that older people close windows on trains and buses? Mainly to keep down noise, but also because it was "the done thing".

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

As an oldie, and as someone who has had a wealth of experience coping with relatives in their 80s and 90s, I'm not sure that noise is the main reason older people shut windows. They probably can't hear it in the first place. 

 

Draughts would be the main reason. It doesn't matter how hot it is outside when you get old, sitting in a seat with a wind blowing around the nether regions can be most uncomfortable.


  • Agree x 4

#22 Clive Mortimore

Clive Mortimore

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,707 posts
  • LocationMiddle of Nowhere Lincolnshire

Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:37

I suppose it depends on the time of year you are modelling. Many windows open in summer months, just the odd sliding vent open in winter.

 

I am modelling a terminus station so perhaps I should at least have the guards window down, if not his door open. It would be hard to replicate the doors being open as the train slowed down to the buffers but a few droplights down even in winter on a train entering the station would look right.

 

But not necessarily one leaving, which reminds me of a time when I caught a train from Liverpool Street back to Chelmsford. I never use to catch the first one I could when I arrived at the station but the next or even the third if that was already in the station, so I had a seat. This particular very hot day the train home was a 312, I was one of the first passengers on board. Myself and another chap opened all the windows at our end of the coach before many others boarded so the journey home would be comfortable. Seconds before the guard blew his whistle on gets this geezer, suit and coat on, closes the drop light as he closed the door. He plonked himself next to me. Within seconds of the train starting to move he got up and closed the other windows, without asking the 30 so nearby passengers if that was OK. I reopened the droplight before Bethnal green. He slammed it shut. "I don't like drafts". For the rest of his journey he sat next to me in his smelly coat and suit with sweat beads on his forehead. When he got off at Shenfield there was a mass opening of the windows. How one person who seem oblivious to the fact it was a hot day make the journey of 30 odd other people physically uncomfortable and by his actions emotionally uncomfortable as it wasn't a day to be confrontational is beyond me. Thank goodness for modern trains having air conditioning, plus when modelling them you don't have to think about open windows.


  • Friendly/Supportive x 1
  • Like x 1

#23 E3109

E3109

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 486 posts

Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:56

Many moons ago, my mate adapted some old carriages so that some of the drop lights were down, to haul behind Jouef class 40s, Lima class 50s and so on.

These were of course 'flailing' and 'bellowing' coaches, so beloved of the bashing fraternity that we were part of then, even if we didn't have that much money to go to many places.

The Bashers were made from Subbuteo figures! I seem to recall that they were a tad over scale.

#24 Steamport Southport

Steamport Southport

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,726 posts
  • Location27C

Posted 11 July 2018 - 09:03

As an oldie, and as someone who has had a wealth of experience coping with relatives in their 80s and 90s, I'm not sure that noise is the main reason older people shut windows. They probably can't hear it in the first place. 

 

Draughts would be the main reason. It doesn't matter how hot it is outside when you get old, sitting in a seat with a wind blowing around the nether regions can be most uncomfortable.

 

I take it you've not been on the Merseyrail Electrics then. The OAPs are always slamming the windows because of the noise in the tunnels. Including ones that aren't even near them.

 

It's not just kids and teenagers that have no manners.

 

 

Jason



#25 The Johnster

The Johnster

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,062 posts
  • LocationThe mean streets of inner-city Cardiff

Posted 11 July 2018 - 09:35

The inward opening window was for carrying patients on stretchers.

 

https://www.flickr.c...009/5888641136/

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

One wonders why a single compartment of a CK, and no other coach, was selected for this, but presumably a CK could be rostered and the compartment reserved for the stretchee and carers if it was pre-booked to carry a stretcher patient; unbooked emergency cases would probably have to take pot luck in the brake van!