Mid-1930s LMS Coaches - what types?

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi all,

Im helping a friend who is researching a new layout that will be based somewhere in the Peak District, probably on the Ambergate-Millers Dale-Chinley route, set in the mid to late 1930s, before the war.

 

We have been trying to work out what types of coaching stock would have been used on the likes of Derby-Manchester locals and London-Manchester expresses.  From some online and older reference books we also believe there were some Summer Saturday Nottingham-Blackpool workings over the route.

 

Can anyone point us in the right direction, either in terms of the formations or carriage types (I believe the Period II were non-corridor, where as Period III were corridor - am I right?) ... or can you recommend any books that are a good source of info.  Im sure there must be something in Midland Record, but cannot seem to find an index for it?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Cheers

Richie

[Steamport Southport]

There are lots of "typical" formations on the Comet Models website.

 

Click on the Products page and then click on LMS Coach Kits. If you click on PDF on each carriage you get a potted history of each type with some formations.

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/

 

I would definitely try and find a copy of this though.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Train-Formations-1923-1983-LMS-LM/dp/0711016062

 

 

 

Jason

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi Jason,

Many thanks. I didn't know about that book - I have the LNER one which is superb, but have passed the details on to my friend for him to purchase!

 

I'll also go take a look at the Comet Models website.

 

All help gratefully received.

 

Richie

[bike2steam]

... or can you recommend any books that are a good source of info. 

 

'The LMS Coach 1923-1957', Essery & Jenkinson. https://www.amazon.co.uk/LMS-Coach-1923-1957-R-J-Essery/dp/0711000743/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1531335699&sr=1-2&keywords=lms+coaches

Edited July 11, 2018 by bike2steam

[kevinlms]

Hi all,

 

 

Can anyone point us in the right direction, either in terms of the formations or carriage types (I believe the Period II were non-corridor, where as Period III were corridor - am I right?) ... or can you recommend any books that are a good source of info.  Im sure there must be something in Midland Record, but cannot seem to find an index for it?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Cheers

Richie

Not right about Period II & Period II. Both styles were constructed as a mix of corridor & non corridor. 

 

Some basic information on the various Periods, can be found here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaches_of_the_London,_Midland_and_Scottish_Railway#Coaches_built_by_the_LMS

[Richie Kynaston]

Kevin/Bike2Steam,

Thanks for your comments and assistance. My friend has purchased the book suggested by Jason so that will hopefully help, and we have noted the other book mentioned.

 

Can anyone tell us what types of vehicles would have been used for the St Pancras-Manchester expresses in the period? Would Derby-Manchester stopping services have been non-Corridor types?

 

Other than Ian Kirk, does anyone else do O gauge LMS coach kits? Its not my area of knowledge but not many options seem to be coming up.

 

Richie

[jim.snowdon]

Other than Ian Kirk, does anyone else do O gauge LMS coach kits? Its not my area of knowledge but not many options seem to be coming up.

Richie

Sidelines do quite a good range of LMS and pre-LMS carriages IN 7mm scale.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

In the 1930s there would still be plenty of ex-Midland vehicles about, even on expresses though perhaps as strengtheners. Mostly Bain 54' corridor clerestory types. There could also be ex-LNWR corridor carriages; probably mostly 57' elliptical roof types - the LNWR was very much bigger in the passenger business than the Midland so many older carriages would be cascaded to the Midland division of the LMS as they were displaced from West Coast expresses by the latest LMS designs. The LMS-built stock would predominantly be the wood-panelled Period I designs that were built in large numbers in the 1920s. There would be very few of the steel panelled Period III carriages. 

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that with the exception of the very latest Period III carriages, all these carriages would have been in the fully lined out Midland-style livery. 

 

Your friend is going to have an interesting time modelling these carriages - I hope he will find reading up on Midland, LNWR and early LMS carriages as fascinating an aspect of the hobby as I do.

 

EDIT: I've used the word "would" several times here as these remarks are based on my general knowledge of LMS and constituent carriages rather than a detailed analysis of photographs and documents for this route at this period. I'd be interested to see a write-up of such research - a shame LMS Journal is long gone.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Compound2632

[Joseph_Pestell]

St Pancras - Manchester was a prime route. So some period 3 coaches would be right on the principal trains. But mainly period 2.

[Compound2632]

St Pancras - Manchester was a prime route. So some period 3 coaches would be right on the principal trains. But mainly period 2.

 

Period II was rather brief; chiefly rather grand stock for the Euston - Lancashire services. The OP's friend is going to have a happy time sitting down with his carriage books and and marshalling instructions he can locate, identifying carriage types from photos. Have a look at this snippet of film of the Thames-Clyde express leaving St Pancras sometime in the 1930s. The three or four carriages we see are all Period I; no one would suggest that the Thames Clyde wasn't one of the Midland Division's principal trains. 

 

The engine's a Compound, by the way, not a Jubilee. The same would go for the Manchester expresses; they didn't get Jubilees until 1938. Don't fall into the trap of projecting the 1950s back onto the 1930s.

 

I've just had a quick leaf through Bill Hudson's Through Limestone Hills which must be on the OP's friend's reading list. There are very few photos of passenger trains from the mid-late 1930s; rather more from c. 1930-1932, including several of ordinary passenger trains (Derby - Manchester Central) pretty much entirely composed of ex-Midland clerestory carriages - quite a few non-corridor.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think the mid-30s is an unsatisfactory period to be modelling. If you want the LMS in its Stanier glory - Jubilees, Rebuilt Scots, Period III carriages - the model the 1950s - oodles of documentation. Otherwise, if you're going for Compounds and fully-lined out carriages, why not roll the clock back to the late pre-grouping/early LMS period?

Edited July 14, 2018 by Compound2632

[The Johnster]

This raises the general point of cascading of older coaches on the 'traditional' railway.  Nowadays passenger trains are in fixed mulitple unit sets and replaced as whole sets, but back in the day the coaches of even premier route express passenger trains would usually be a mixture of probably the most recent 3 or 4 types, brand new back to several decades old; this was largely the case until the early 60s, when main line trains were overwhelmed with the supply of mk1s available at the same time as traffic, and train lengths, were decreasing. Many BR built Hawkworths, Staniers, and Thompsons, had very short lives, and Bullieds did not last much longer!  Pre 1960, only the high profile trains, the marketing dept's pet named expresses, got whole rakes of new coaches (particularly on the LNER), and this was not usually maintained for very long after introduction.  There was an apparent rule on the GW, continued by BR (W), that if, due to unpreventable circumstances two coaches of the same general design and profile accidentally got marshalled next to each other, care had to be taken that the liveries didn't match...

 

The older designs had some advantages.  Outside doors to each compartment enabled faster and easier boarding and detraining, especially with luggage or kids, where a more modern full window compartment had to be awkwardly accessed through end doors, vestibules, and corridors blocked by others doing the same thing, but wartime overcrowding had conditioned people to this and most just grumbled and got on with it; the British character has it's own unique way of dealing with trains, to often comic effect.  

 

Many people, especially the more nervous sort of lady but I'm not claiming they were the only ones, were nervous of using the gangways, even when the train was not moving; these were dark and scary places of the sort to induce claustrophobia in anyone vulnerable to it.  With the train in motion, they were noisy, draughty, unpredictable in movement, and terrifying; the American system where you stepped across the gap in the open but could at least see what was happening may have suited some folk better!  The 'Pullman' gangways of mk1, Thompson, and Bullied stock were a big improvement here, and Hawksworth's bow enders at least reduced the distance between coaches.

 

For main line modelling purposes, if one is modelling any period before about 1963, I would suggest that one needs to have a bulk of passenger stock of the type from about 20 years from before the date modelled, with a smattering of older and newer examples.  4mm RTR caters well enough to this for most periods between about 1930 and 60, before that and you need a good number of pre-grouping types and things get a bit harder, which is a bit at odds with Compound's advice, though I can see what he's getting at.

 

Same goes for liveries to some extent; it takes about 20 years for a new livery to completely oust it's predecessor(s), by which time another livery variation or two has come along; GNR/LNER teak may be hard to apply but at least it covers a good time span; the GW changed it's mind every 5 minutes...

Edited July 14, 2018 by The Johnster

[TheSignalEngineer]

Not on that particular line, but LMS Midland side, the stock on the Derby - Birmingham - Bristol line would have been quite similar.

Local trains c1935 seem to have been largely Period 1 stock with some Midland coaches and an occasional Period 2 coach.

Expresses depended on the type of service. The top trains had a small number of Period 3 coaches but were still mainly Period 1 and Period 2. 'Ordinary' through services and Summer dated trains could throw up almost anything, indeed there are pictures of pre-grouping stock on holiday trains at New Street as late as 1952.

[Richie Kynaston]

Guys,

Thanks to everyone for their help and support with this.  My mate tells me the first book arrived this afternoon, so he has some reading to do!  Both of us also have a bit more of an idea about LMS coaches now!

 

The engine's a Compound, by the way, not a Jubilee. The same would go for the Manchester expresses; they didn't get Jubilees until 1938. Don't fall into the trap of projecting the 1950s back onto the 1930s.

 

I've just had a quick leaf through Bill Hudson's Through Limestone Hills which must be on the OP's friend's reading list. There are very few photos of passenger trains from the mid-late 1930s; rather more from c. 1930-1932, including several of ordinary passenger trains (Derby - Manchester Central) pretty much entirely composed of ex-Midland clerestory carriages - quite a few non-corridor.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think the mid-30s is an unsatisfactory period to be modelling. If you want the LMS in its Stanier glory - Jubilees, Rebuilt Scots, Period III carriages - the model the 1950s - oodles of documentation. Otherwise, if you're going for Compounds and fully-lined out carriages, why not roll the clock back to the late pre-grouping/early LMS period?

 

I believe his choice of the late 1930s, was primarily because he liked the more opulent liveries of the coaching stock, and the ability to run private owner coal wagons in reasonable length rakes, while having a love of 'Black 5s', '8Fs' and 'Jubilees', all of which construction started in or by the mid-1930s.  So its not so much as trying to project backwards, more ensure that the locos could have been around.

 

I know he wanted to shy away from the 1950s/1960s, because of the general run down of things, he did not want diesels on the layout, and wanted to shy away from the common Mk1 coaches.  IT also lost the LMS style liveries and some of the earlier coaches.  I suspect there was also an element that the majority of steam era layouts are 1950s onwards and he wanted to do something different.

 

When we were talking the late pre-grouping era was the initial choice, with the ability to portray the Midland Railway over the group, but the downside was that it lost him the 8Fs (one of his favourite classes).  'Black 5s' and 'Jubilees' were more of a nice to have than a must have.  The other thought, was that it was a period where neither of us knew much about what loco classes would have worked over the peak line.  I think 4Fs were just about around, being a MR design, but what else was there is a mystery to both of us.  Im happy to be educated if anyone wants to pick up this line of thought tho!

 

Richie

[Compound2632]

Guys,

Thanks to everyone for their help and support with this.  My mate tells me the first book arrived this afternoon, so he has some reading to do!  Both of us also have a bit more of an idea about LMS coaches now!

 

 

I believe his choice of the late 1930s, was primarily because he liked the more opulent liveries of the coaching stock, and the ability to run private owner coal wagons in reasonable length rakes, while having a love of 'Black 5s', '8Fs' and 'Jubilees', all of which construction started in or by the mid-1930s.  So its not so much as trying to project backwards, more ensure that the locos could have been around.

 

I know he wanted to shy away from the 1950s/1960s, because of the general run down of things, he did not want diesels on the layout, and wanted to shy away from the common Mk1 coaches.  IT also lost the LMS style liveries and some of the earlier coaches.  I suspect there was also an element that the majority of steam era layouts are 1950s onwards and he wanted to do something different.

 

When we were talking the late pre-grouping era was the initial choice, with the ability to portray the Midland Railway over the group, but the downside was that it lost him the 8Fs (one of his favourite classes).  'Black 5s' and 'Jubilees' were more of a nice to have than a must have.  The other thought, was that it was a period where neither of us knew much about what loco classes would have worked over the peak line.  I think 4Fs were just about around, being a MR design, but what else was there is a mystery to both of us.  Im happy to be educated if anyone wants to pick up this line of thought tho!

 

Richie

 

For goods engines, looking at Rowsley's allocation would be very informative. In addition to Bill Hudson's Through Limestone Hills, another must have reference is Rowsley: A Rural Railway Centre, by Glyn Waite and Laurence Knighton (Midland Railway Society, 2003). This gives an allocation in Sept 1935 that includes six 2F, two 3F, four ex-Midland 4F, and seven LMS 4F 0-6-0s, along with a couple of G2s and three Crabs.

[Richie Kynaston]

Thanks Stephen,

I've passed the comment about 'Through Limestone Hills' on, but hadn't come across the Waite & Knighton volume, i'll add that to his list!  The addition of a couple of former LNWR G2s will certainly spark his interest!

 

I find that these kind of things are as much of knowing what books are out there, as finding the actual information!  For that both of us are very grateful to those of you who have chipped in with info and sources of reference.

 

Cheers

Richie

[Richie Kynaston]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for all your help.  Just to advise that my friend has now purchased the first couple of editions of 'Midland Record' for general background reading, and has also acquired the 'Through Limestone Hills' book which he tells me is due for delivery tomorrow.

 

Following your comments, he's also coming round to the idea of a Midland Railway/LMS layout based in the mid-1920s!  Although, I suspect the odd time machine would appear, to allow an '8F' to crank through occasionally ... no doubt in the dead of night so that any "railway talk" could be dismissed as pure rumour!

 

Richie

Edited July 20, 2018 by Richie Kynaston