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Digitrax and Railcomn


WIMorrison
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A slight problem, I have afriend who had Digitrax command station and controllers with a variety of Zimo, ESU, Lenz and Diigtrax (also in various 3rd party implentations) and he has a large hidden storage yard. His challenge is that as get gets older (don't we all) he forgets what he has in which of the 15 tracks.

 

He has seen what I do with Railcom and is interested in having Railcom (he knows he will need to replace ~10 decoders) report to the basic version of iTrain or possibly RR&Co to get reporting of what train is in which line in the yard. I know I can do this easily in iTrain, I think I can do it in RR&Co bronze and possibly Rocrail or JMRI but they would be harder.

 

My question is how I can get Railcom to work and report through his Digitrax interface into a PC based program. I know that DCC4PC have a device (https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/dcc4pc/computer-interface-device) which seems to answer some of the issues in that it will generate a Railcom Cutout for the power into the yard, but how do I get that back through the PC interface? I would plan to use a DR5088RC which is a Loconet device to get the Railcom feedback on the tracks but I don't see how I can get this back to the PC.

 

Ideas on the feasibility and potential solutions would be greatly appreciated

 

Iain

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I don't think you can.  Digitrax use there own system (Transponding) which does the same sort of thing as RailComm.  As neither are NMRA standards, they likely won't travel through the same feedback bus.  What would be possible is to feed the DCC track power through a RailComm device as the final element and then send that back to the computer if you are running RR&Co as a seperate system.  I'm not sure how you would deal with needing the 15 Railcomm sections & power sections as well.  

 

I've used the Digitrax Transponding, and quite frankly, don't see much point if you use RR&Co.  Save the layout state at the end of the session, and the next time, start from there.  I have a sheet (and 15 staging yard tracks too...), that I use to write out the ID's of each loco/train on if I have made major changes by hand.  Since that's not very often...I don't use the sheet very often either !

 

James

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I have discussed with the chap the concept of fully instrumenting the layout and letting a control package run everything however that is not what he wants to do and to make any of the packages work correctly they need to what is where 100% of the time. His desire is simply to have the DCC ID read when the train enters the monitored area and this ID to display with the train name over the track where said train is. Had he chosen a Lenz system rather than Digitrax then this would have been a 5 min task, I think that it would have been possible with almost any other manufacturer but not Digitrax who have gone on their own rather that adopt the standard.

 

You say Railcom isn't a standard - I think NMRA consider it a standard as they describe it fully here https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf, whereas there isn't a single mention of Transponding on their site anywhere :(

 

It may be that TAMS Electronik has a way of injecting the cutout and then extracting the data via USB https://tams-online.de/epages/642f1858-c39b-4b7d-af86-f6a1feaca0e4.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/642f1858-c39b-4b7d-af86-f6a1feaca0e4/Categories/Produkte/Digital/Railcom (open it in Chrome for translation) and I will write and ask them.

 

any ideas on how this might be achieved are very welcome :)

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He may, or may not, have his layout electrically divided into sections/blocks:: - not required for dcc, or even dcc block detection (if optical or similar) _BUT unavoidable with Railcom®.   (I have used optical and RFid in previous layouts to avoid the need for many electrical sections - which would go against the principles of the simplicity of dcc - i choose my electrical areas for fault-finding diagnosis - and it means i can keep the 2 systems/aspects totally separate - a fault in one does not stop the other from working.

 

however. a Digikeijs Railcom reading module offers a choice of connecting busses with which to connect it to whatever (presumably software) is going to make use of the information .... if using a z21 it could be via that hardware, (or the digikeijs version) - or directly to the device running the software.  (RBus or Loconet offered)

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@Phil S - if he was using a  Z21 then I wouldn't have any issues and I wouldn't be asking solutions about how to get around the Digitrax kit that he has …

 

Blocks aren't an issue, they are easy to make and wire, just as easy to get rid of when not required - what is more challenging is the interoperability of equipment, especially Digitrax which is more closed than many :(

Edited by WIMorrison
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I have discussed with the chap the concept of fully instrumenting the layout and letting a control package run everything however that is not what he wants to do and to make any of the packages work correctly they need to what is where 100% of the time. His desire is simply to have the DCC ID read when the train enters the monitored area and this ID to display with the train name over the track where said train is. Had he chosen a Lenz system rather than Digitrax then this would have been a 5 min task, I think that it would have been possible with almost any other manufacturer but not Digitrax who have gone on their own rather that adopt the standard.

 

You say Railcom isn't a standard - I think NMRA consider it a standard as they describe it fully here https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf, whereas there isn't a single mention of Transponding on their site anywhere :(

 

It may be that TAMS Electronik has a way of injecting the cutout and then extracting the data via USB https://tams-online.de/epages/642f1858-c39b-4b7d-af86-f6a1feaca0e4.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/642f1858-c39b-4b7d-af86-f6a1feaca0e4/Categories/Produkte/Digital/Railcom (open it in Chrome for translation) and I will write and ask them.

 

any ideas on how this might be achieved are very welcome :)

I use a Lenz system with DCC4PC railcom readers in conjunction with traincontroller gold where I have to enable the TAMS RC link for the system to work , i'm unsure if i'm correct but I think that full railcom use is going to need some form of pc control ie Traincontroller iTRAIN JMRI etc

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If one adds a RailCom cutout device (eg. DCC4PC sell one) to the output of a Digitrax command station, you get RailCom on the lines.  Locos can then have their ID read by a suitable RailCom reader on the track segment.  I've seen others report that adding a Lenz booster will also do the same trick.

 

I've connected Digitrax command stations, using a DCC4PC cutout, and either the basic Lenz readout device, or a Hans De Loof reader (which in turn puts the loco ID onto LocoNet as a Transponding message, so any software which does Transponding will now work with RailCom instead).  

So, for the stated requirements, a DCC4PC cutout device and a Lenz RailCom reader/display works.  Or if willing to do some DIY soldering, Hans De Loof's reader will do rather more. 

 

 

There is a limitation - Digitrax use a short DCC pre-amble, so the RailCom cutout is only a short cutout, not a long one.  The consequence is that not every type of RailCom reading event will work, only the shorter ones.  So, single loco identification by a block section detector works, but other things (such as speed reading from loco) do not.  

 

 

An alternative approach would be to substitute the Digitrax Command Station with something which generates RailCom natively, and also has LocoNet capabilities.  Candidates would include Uhlenbrock (which I've tried and it works fine, long RailCom cutout is present), Digikeijs or Roco's Z21.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

Edited by Nigelcliffe
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Nigel

 

Very useful and very helpful. What you write confirms that I am not barking mad with my thoughts on how to enable Railcom for just the storage yard.

 

A question on the HDL loconet buffer - where would this be placed? I assume after the DCC4PC Railcom cutout generator? This would allow a PC to read the Railcom messages that are in the yard.

 

I know about Digitrax using 14 bits and the resultant short Railcom cutout and whilst I would dearly love to replace the Zephyr with something better the chap had all sorts of routes and things defined and wants to remain with the digitrax handsets - all he wants is a screen displaying what is in the yard and this seems to offer a solution.

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Nigel

 

Very useful and very helpful. What you write confirms that I am not barking mad with my thoughts on how to enable Railcom for just the storage yard.

 

A question on the HDL loconet buffer - where would this be placed? I assume after the DCC4PC Railcom cutout generator? This would allow a PC to read the Railcom messages that are in the yard.

 

I know about Digitrax using 14 bits and the resultant short Railcom cutout and whilst I would dearly love to replace the Zephyr with something better the chap had all sorts of routes and things defined and wants to remain with the digitrax handsets - all he wants is a screen displaying what is in the yard and this seems to offer a solution.

 

 

Bits needed:

 

 

1 - RailCom cutout device.  I've used DCC4PC example.  

There is a HDL device which can create a RailCom cutout onto LocoNet's RailSync, and thus drive a LocoNet based booster, but I have no experience of it:   HDL LocoRCC.

 

 

2  -  Reading device, on a block of track which has a single loco in it at any one time:  either Lenz LRC120 RailCom display (simple, but may do precisely the job required), or HDL LocoRCD  (I've built v1, but there is a v2 which has two detectors in the same device, designed for an "approach" and a "stop" track on approaching a signal).

 

 

3 - Display of information

 

If using Lenz LRC120, then the display is built into the device.

 

If using HDL LocoRCD, then option of either local display (original LocoRCD has that as an option),  or connect to LocoNet.  

 

Once on LocoNet, display options are either HDL LocoView (LCD/LED display, which needs a HDL LocoIO to drive up to four LocoView displays, no computer needed other than for setup/configuration), or require LocoNet to PC conversion device of choice, and whatever software is preferred - could be Digitrax PR3/PR4, or RR Circuits LocoBuffer(* see below), or HDL LocoBuffer.   

 

 

 

 

 

A single RailCom cutout device could feed multiple blocks with DCC signal, each with its own detector/reading device.   Thus different displays for different storage roads if required.  

Or, if a switch is used to swap track power between storage roads (wired as if for sections on DC running), then a single display device could cover multiple roads.

 

 

Were it me, for just a local display, I'd use the Lenz LRC120.    If networking of messages to either remote displays, or to a computer is needed, then the HDL stuff comes into play.    With a longer pre-amble, the HDL with display does more than the Lenz, but that long pre-amble isn't available with a Digitrax command station. 

 

 

 

 

(*) Note that the RR Circuits LocoBuffer is subtly different to a HDL LocoBuffer, so the HDL configuration software didn't used to work with the RR Circuits device, but does work with PR3 and HDL LocoBuffer.   Jeff Law published some tools to get around that, using the RR Circuits LocoBuffer (or any other LocoNet interface), or its possible through a somewhat clunky script I wrote to do it via JMRI many years ago. 

 

 

- Nigel

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Probably works, though uses kit combinations I haven't tried.  

 

However, two comments - 

  1. HDL LocoBuffer:  why that version over the RR=Cirkits "ready to use" item ?   ( Or for that matter a Digitrax PR3 / PR4 ) 
  2. Computer for displaying train details:   Is this over-the-top given the earlier stated requirements for a fairly simple display of loco identification ? 
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Nigel,

 

I chose the HDL kit based upon price, any loconet interface devide should work :)

 

The reason for the computer and itrain is that he doesnt just want it to say Loco #2, he wants Loco #2 to be translated in Brighton Belle, York Pullman, Mixed Freight, etc which is what he has seen on my layout. This is accomplished by the software reading the rialcom ID and it knowing that Loco #2 is pulling the Brighton Bell coach set as that is what you have defined within the train make up.

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Nigel and others

 

I have just had a long convcersation with Ray at DCC4PC and he has confirmed that thgis solution will work without any issues :)

 

Just need to get the friend who asked for it to buy the bits then we will be rockim' and rollin'

 

Iain

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No, I had a specific task for it to do and once I identified it would do that I stopped looking at that point :)

 

In the end I wont be using it as he has 'found' a PR4 that he forgot he had, therefore i wont need an interface.

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No, I had a specific task for it to do and once I identified it would do that I stopped looking at that point :)

 

In the end I wont be using it as he has 'found' a PR4 that he forgot he had, therefore i wont need an interface.

Thanks for the info.

 

Frederick

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