Frog Juice

[cromptonnut]

What are people's recommendations for frog automatic polarity switchers these days?

 

A few years ago I'd simply have used the Hex Frog Juicers because that was the best available at the time, however I'm a bit out of touch in DCC developments so I was wondering if there were recommended alternatives these days.

 

My current project has 3 frogs on one board (including a double slip) and 3 on another that need switching. 

 

Is the Gaugemaster DCC80 DCC Autofrog considered a good item?  These would indeed work out cheaper than a frog juicer.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited July 15, 2018 by cromptonnut

[amdaley]

How are you switching your points ?

[Oldddudders]

As AMD asks, the answer is related to your choice of point control. I have found DCC 80s work very well, on a layout where I simply don’t need point motors. But some motors, if so you choose, may have changeover contacts that do the whole job for you. Tortoise is the trad example, but there are others.

[cromptonnut]

My plan was simply to use the Peco motors, as I have those and am familiar with them.  Slow action is not required on this layout.  I know of the Peco accessory switches but tend to have trouble with reliability (most likely my fault) hence preferring electronic means - previous experience of Juicers as explained but wondering about the Gaugemaster ones, which are considerably cheaper so are they as good?

[Danemouth]

As AMD asks, the answer is related to your choice of point control. I have found DCC 80s work very well, on a layout where I simply don’t need point motors. But some motors, if so you choose, may have changeover contacts that do the whole job for you. Tortoise is the trad example, but there are others.

 

Following the failure of a couple of frog juicers, several years old, I've changed to polarity switching using the auxiliary switches on the Cobalt point motors. All works well including the three way point and double slip.

 

Dave

[amdaley]

My plan was simply to use the Peco motors, as I have those and am familiar with them.  Slow action is not required on this layout.  I know of the Peco accessory switches but tend to have trouble with reliability (most likely my fault) hence preferring electronic means - previous experience of Juicers as explained but wondering about the Gaugemaster ones, which are considerably cheaper so are they as good?

You can get an accessory switch which fits to the Peco point motor. They seem to be pretty reliable.

https://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=0&P_ID=17646&strPageHistory=search&numSearchStartRecord=1

[cromptonnut]

You can get an accessory switch which fits to the Peco point motor. They seem to be pretty reliable.

https://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=0&P_ID=17646&strPageHistory=search&numSearchStartRecord=1

 

I'm aware of those but have had reliability issues myself in the past.  Hence wishing to use a non-mechanical alternative.

[amdaley]

I'm aware of those but have had reliability issues myself in the past.  Hence wishing to use a non-mechanical alternative.

To be honest you have so little frogs that need switching I would go for Tortoise motors. Each has two switches built in.

I have lots of them & have never had a failure.

[Suzie]

The PL15 switch is completely reliable in my experience. Very adjustable to get it to operate nicely. Not to be confused with the old PL13 switch which is pretty useless.

 

If you want low cost and reliability power your Peco motors from DC or a CDU and use twin coil latching relays to switch the frog polarity. It is easy to mount them on a piece of stripboard with screw terminal blocks to make a neat and reliable solution.

[Pete the Elaner]

I'm aware of those but have had reliability issues myself in the past.  Hence wishing to use a non-mechanical alternative.

I had 2 out of 8 PL-13s fail on a layout. Too high a failure rate for my liking.

I see tortoise have been suggested. I found these reliable but they were rather large. They were fine for the high level section but need very deep framework to protect them from knocks when mounted below the board.

[daltonparva]

Tam Valley do frog juicers for 1, 2, or 6 frogs. I've only used the dual ones for turntables, and I've got them from Digitrains.

[Colin_McLeod]

The Gaugemaster item seems to be an electronic solution like the frog juicer. Has anyone any experience of it?

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCC80

[dhjgreen]

Mallard60022 on here is using DCC80s. He had some issues when the bus voltage was too low, but otherwise seem OK. I would post a link to the topic but there is more than the usual drift on SOS Junction

[daltonparva]

The Gaugemaster item seems to be an electronic solution like the frog juicer. Has anyone any experience of it?

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCC80

That has a relay in it, and from what I have been told that makes it slower and potentially more likely to cause problems than purely electronic ones.

[daltonparva]

Forgot to mention, the electronic juicers are for DCC only, they don't work on DC.

[cromptonnut]

Mallard60022 on here is using DCC80s. He had some issues when the bus voltage was too low, but otherwise seem OK. I would post a link to the topic but there is more than the usual drift on SOS Junction

 

"Drift" is a bit of an understatement  where that thread is concerned

 

 

Forgot to mention, the electronic juicers are for DCC only, they don't work on DC.

 

Apologies, I should have mentioned that I am using DCC, Lenz although that shouldn't make a difference.

Edited July 15, 2018 by cromptonnut

[RFS]

No-one's mentioned the Gaugemaster GM500 yet.  This is a simple DPDT relay designed to work together with your chosen solenoid point motor. It's DC or DCC, and if you have a crossover requiring two frogs to be switched differently, then only one GM500 is needed.  It's not a frog-juicer (so no worry about DCC shorts etc) and seems to me a simple solution.  It's much preferable to the mechanical PL-15 and much cheaper too.

 

Just search on GM500 here for the options - http://www.gaugemaster.com/index.html

[Oldddudders]

The Gaugemaster item seems to be an electronic solution like the frog juicer. Has anyone any experience of it?

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=DCC80

See post #3?

[Suzie]

No-one's mentioned the Gaugemaster GM500 yet.  This is a simple DPDT relay designed to work together with your chosen solenoid point motor. It's DC or DCC, and if you have a crossover requiring two frogs to be switched differently, then only one GM500 is needed.  It's not a frog-juicer (so no worry about DCC shorts etc) and seems to me a simple solution.  It's much preferable to the mechanical PL-15 and much cheaper too.

 

Just search on GM500 here for the options - http://www.gaugemaster.com/index.html

 

The GM500 is a latching relay mounted on a small PCB for a similar cost to a PL15 switch. If you need six of them you will save half the cost mounting latching relays yourself on stripboard and can have screw terminals rather than having to solder wires direct to the PCB.

 

Rapid parts required:-

 

10x 21-4006 = £3.85 - 3-way terminal blocks (seven required, order quantity is ten) 

6x 63-1533 = £12.60 24V Latching relays

Bit of stripboard and wire and for less than £17 Robert is your uncle...

 

These relays are double pole, so best to wire both poles in parallel to give 8A switching capability which is more than enough for a Lenz system even if shorted. You just need to make sure that your CDU provides at least 18V on load.

[The Bigbee Line]

I've used the DCC80's.  With Roco / Lenz equipment.  No problems.  Piece of cake to wire up.

[The Bigbee Line]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124772-tenterden-town-goods-curved-board-extension/

 

Post 3 refers

[RFS]

The GM500 is a latching relay mounted on a small PCB for a similar cost to a PL15 switch. If you need six of them you will save half the cost mounting latching relays yourself on stripboard and can have screw terminals rather than having to solder wires direct to the PCB.

 

Rapid parts required:-

 

10x 21-4006 = £3.85 - 3-way terminal blocks (seven required, order quantity is ten) 

6x 63-1533 = £12.60 24V Latching relays

Bit of stripboard and wire and for less than £17 Robert is your uncle...

 

These relays are double pole, so best to wire both poles in parallel to give 8A switching capability which is more than enough for a Lenz system even if shorted. You just need to make sure that your CDU provides at least 18V on load.

 

I actually made up some of these a few years ago when using Peco PL-10s for frog polarity. I'm now using Tortoises, and these relay boards are now being used connected to LS150s for DCC operation of Berko colour light signals. I only used them for crossovers on my layout, as only one board was needed to replace a pair of PL-13s. 

 

The board actually needs a few more components than you list. Stripboard is not cheap these days, plus you need 3 x 3-way terminal blocks for each (1 for turnout connection, 2 x DPDT switches). I used them with my Lenz 5A system and never had a problem with shorts needing both switches wired together as you suggest. After all you are only providing frog power and the rating of a single switch is more than enough to trip the Lenz immediately on a short. 

 

I also preferred not to solder the delicate relay direct to the stripboard, instead used one of the mounting sockets for these.  That meant I could swap a relay if one failed (none have so far). Plus my point power was AC so diodes were needed to convert that to DC. 

 

Here's a picture of my first working attempt - it actually has one more diode than actually needed.  Total cost was about £5. If the GM500 were available then I would have saved myself the trouble and bought them instead. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by RFS

[Suzie]

If making a board to do multiple frogs then you just need a 3-way connector for track left and right and CDU return, and a 3-way for each point with coil left, coil right and frog. Keeps the cost down to <£3 per point assuming that a piece of stripboard is available (it is a key item in my toolbox!)

 

Diodes required if you have an AC supply of course, but nowadays switchmode 24V DC PSUs cost less than a transformer anyway.

 

I think that as you say the relays are unlikely to fail, especially as the contacts are unlikely to be switched under load. The socket is likely to be more of a failure point!

[Crewlisle]

Once more I will stick my neck out & say that if you are using Peco Code 100 Electrofrogs there is no need for polarity switching if you keep the point blades clean as they can be used straight out of the box.  I have been DCC for 10 years using the Lenz LZV 100 Command Station & LH90 hand held controllers.

 

My layout 'Crewlisle' was started 45 years ago with Code 100 Insulfrogs modified to live frogs about 30 years ago & progressively installing the reliable but basic Peco solenoid motors as funds permitted,.  As they have grown old & weary like we all do, they have been replaced with Code 100 Electrofrogs, still using the reliable Peco solenoid motors.  Over the years, the number of both polarity or motor failures I have had at exhibitions or at home I can count on one hand.  Then they were only in sidings.  'Crewlisle' has 30 Code 100 Peco Electrofrog points & the only polarity switches on my layout are for the live diamond.

 

Peter

Edited July 16, 2018 by Crewlisle

[Oldddudders]

Humidity has a lot to do with conductivity, as we all know, and if the layout isn’t always in dry conditions then rail to rail contact can be compromised. Electrofrogs plus some form of feed to the frog provides reliability under all circumstances.