Frog Juice

[RFS]

Once more I will stick my neck out & say that if you are using Peco Code 100 Electrofrogs there is no need for polarity switching if you keep the point blades clean as they can be used straight out of the box.  I have been DCC for 10 years using the Lenz LZV 100 Command Station & LH90 hand held controllers.

 

My layout 'Crewlisle' was started 45 years ago with Code 100 Insulfrogs modified to live frogs about 30 years ago & progressively installing the reliable but basic Peco solenoid motors as funds permitted,.  As they have grown old & weary like we all do, they have been replaced with Code 100 Electrofrogs, still using the reliable Peco solenoid motors.  Over the years, the number of both polarity or motor failures I have had at exhibitions or at home I can count on one hand.  Then they were only in sidings.  'Crewlisle' has 30 Code 100 Peco Electrofrog points & the only polarity switches on my layout are for the live diamond.

 

Peter

 

But things are moving on.  The new bullhead points are Unifrog and Peco have said that as the tooling wears out, then all code 75/100 Electrofrog and Insulfrog points will be replaced by Unifrog versions.  Then you have a choice: accept a short dead frog if you install the points as-is from the box, or add a polarity switch. 

[shibushe]

DCC 80 Frog Switch. Great piece of kit used several, never failed to do what is says. Only 3 Wires.

Have Two unused packs. £10 each Free Post. PM me if interested.

[ianLMS]

I have around 10 DCC80's and no issues with them so far.  I also use the DCC Concepts ADS-8FX (no memory) & starting to swap over to the ADS8SX (with memory) to power the motors/LEDS etc. These have frog polarity built in so I intend to move all of my non-DCC80 points into the new control boards when I replace them all for the ADS8SX.

Edited July 19, 2018 by ianLMS

[NickC]

I have some DCC80s on my layout, work great, no problems with them and easy to wire up

[Mark Forrest]

I've used a Hex Frog Juicer on Fryers Lane, partly out of curiosity and partly out of laziness. One thing I don't like, that would potentially put me off using one again, is the noticeable spark when a wheel makes contact with a common crossing.

 

Have other users of these (or other similar devices) noticed this or is it something unique to my set up? In my case the DCC comes from a Roco Multimaus and the rail is steel so wondering if either of those are the cause of the spark or if its just "normal" when using these juicers?

[Nigelcliffe]

I've used a Hex Frog Juicer on Fryers Lane, partly out of curiosity and partly out of laziness. One thing I don't like, that would potentially put me off using one again, is the noticeable spark when a wheel makes contact with a common crossing.

 

Have other users of these (or other similar devices) noticed this or is it something unique to my set up? In my case the DCC comes from a Roco Multimaus and the rail is steel so wondering if either of those are the cause of the spark or if its just "normal" when using these juicers?

 

Normal.  There is a momentary short circuit, then the device kicks in and changes the polarity.  The spark is indicative of a microscopic metal erosion of the wheel or rail.   Its one of the reasons why some people (me included) argue that such devices are a poor solution.   Better solutions are either switching on the movement of the tie bar, or detectors ahead of the crossing which then change the polarity in advance of the train arriving.   

 

- Nigel

[SJR]

I've used a Hex Frog Juicer on Fryers Lane, partly out of curiosity and partly out of laziness. One thing I don't like, that would potentially put me off using one again, is the noticeable spark when a wheel makes contact with a common crossing.

 

Have other users of these (or other similar devices) noticed this or is it something unique to my set up? In my case the DCC comes from a Roco Multimaus and the rail is steel so wondering if either of those are the cause of the spark or if its just "normal" when using these juicers?

 

I have used the frog juicers and haven't had any issue with sparks. They operate without any issues. Have a Gaugemaster version which works well too.

 

Simon

[Mark Forrest]

Normal.  There is a momentary short circuit, then the device kicks in and changes the polarity.  The spark is indicative of a microscopic metal erosion of the wheel or rail.

 

Thanks Nigel, I suspected that might be the case.  That's enough to put me off using them in the future and consider removing the juicer on the current layout.

 

I have used the frog juicers and haven't had any issue with sparks. They operate without any issues. Have a Gaugemaster version which works well too.

 

Simon

Hi Simon, mind if I ask what DCC system are you using?  I'm wondering if on my layout me using a Multimaus (which I think I read uses a relatively high track voltage) is making the spark more noticeable or if steel rail is more "sparky" than (say) nickel silver.

[daltonparva]

Going back to previous postings, I think the spark is because of the relatively slow speed of switching when using a relay type juicer instead of the speedier electronic ones.

[RFS]

Going back to previous postings, I think the spark is because of the relatively slow speed of switching when using a relay type juicer instead of the speedier electronic ones.

 

And with these you run the risk of your DCC command station reacting faster to the short and tripping the system, plus some circuit breakers, for example the PSX from DCC Specialities, can also react more quickly because they are electronic and not relay-based. 

[Barry Ten]

Another vote for the DCC80s, they're the first I've used of any brand, but work fine for me.

[Crosland]

Thanks Nigel, I suspected that might be the case.  That's enough to put me off using them in the future and consider removing the juicer on the current layout.

 

Hi Simon, mind if I ask what DCC system are you using?  I'm wondering if on my layout me using a Multimaus (which I think I read uses a relatively high track voltage) is making the spark more noticeable or if steel rail is more "sparky" than (say) nickel silver.

 

Track voltage and trip current (I don't recall if it's adjustable on the juicer) will have a bearing on the sparkyness

 

Going back to previous postings, I think the spark is because of the relatively slow speed of switching when using a relay type juicer instead of the speedier electronic ones.

 

The "frog juicers" under discussion ARE electronic.

[RFS]

 

The "frog juicers" under discussion ARE electronic.

 

Gaugemaster themselves describe the DCC80 as "a simple relay".  The large enclosure on the circuit board would also seem to imply it contains a relay.

 

See http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/NEW-DCC-Autofrog-from-Gaugemaster

[Barry Ten]

Gaugemaster themselves describe the DCC80 as "a simple relay".  The large enclosure on the circuit board would also seem to imply it contains a relay.

 

See http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/NEW-DCC-Autofrog-from-Gaugemaster

 

You can hear it clicking when it operates.

[Mark Forrest]

Gaugemaster themselves describe the DCC80 as "a simple relay". The large enclosure on the circuit board would also seem to imply it contains a relay.

 

See http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/NEW-DCC-Autofrog-from-Gaugemaster

That may be the case, but my question about sparks related to a Hex Frog Juicer and not the Gaugemaster product.

[Dominion]

I've used a Hex Frog Juicer on Fryers Lane, partly out of curiosity and partly out of laziness. One thing I don't like, that would potentially put me off using one again, is the noticeable spark when a wheel makes contact with a common crossing.

Have other users of these (or other similar devices) noticed this or is it something unique to my set up? In my case the DCC comes from a Roco Multimaus and the rail is steel so wondering if either of those are the cause of the spark or if its just "normal" when using these juicers?

I've used a Hex Frog Juicer on Fryers Lane, partly out of curiosity and partly out of laziness. One thing I don't like, that would potentially put me off using one again, is the noticeable spark when a wheel makes contact with a common crossing.

Have other users of these (or other similar devices) noticed this or is it something unique to my set up? In my case the DCC comes from a Roco Multimaus and the rail is steel so wondering if either of those are the cause of the spark or if its just "normal" when using these juicers?

I have several hex frog juicers installed from Tam Valley. I have no sparking. They are electronic and much much faster than a relay. The running is excellent. I have had perfect reliability from them. I have them installed on peco and hand built track. I also have the PSX power circuit zone control boards, and the hex frog juicers are much faster than them too. There really is no visible impact on a loco approaching and crossing the frog at any speed.

Tom

[Mark Forrest]

I have several hex frog juicers installed from Tam Valley. I have no sparking. They are electronic and much much faster than a relay. The running is excellent. I have had perfect reliability from them. I have them installed on peco and hand built track. I also have the PSX power circuit zone control boards, and the hex frog juicers are much faster than them too. There really is no visible impact on a loco approaching and crossing the frog at any speed.

Tom

As I said above, my experience of them is somewhat different:

 

Can't fault it for reliability, but visual impact and potential risk of damage to rail and/or wheels has put me right off them.

[Crosland]

Gaugemaster themselves describe the DCC80 as "a simple relay".  The large enclosure on the circuit board would also seem to imply it contains a relay.

 

See http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/NEW-DCC-Autofrog-from-Gaugemaster

 

A frog juicer is NOT a DCC80, nor vice-versa. The discussion about sparks was started in relation to frog juicers, which are manufactured by Tam Valley http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccfrogjuicers.html

[Dominion]

As I said above, my experience of them is somewhat different:

GOPR0204.jpg

 

Can't fault it for reliability, but visual impact and potential risk of damage to rail and/or wheels has put me right off them.

 

My hex frog juices definitely do not do that.  I did once have a problem at one of my frogs but it turned out to be track related, not the hex frog juicer. Tom

[Colin_McLeod]

As I said above, my experience of them is somewhat different:

GOPR0204.jpg

 

Can't fault it for reliability, but visual impact and potential risk of damage to rail and/or wheels has put me right off them.

Ideal for Southern Region EMU layouts

[daltonparva]

As I said above, my experience of them is somewhat different:

GOPR0204.jpg

 

Can't fault it for reliability, but visual impact and potential risk of damage to rail and/or wheels has put me right off them.

As your Hex juicer controls 6 frogs do all of them spark, or just the one in the photo?

[Mark Forrest]

As your Hex juicer controls 6 frogs do all of them spark, or just the one in the photo?

The layout only requires 3 of the possible 6 terminals to be used, but it seems to spark equally on running through the common crossings wired to each of those.

[The Bigbee Line]

As I said above, my experience of them is somewhat different:

 

 

Can't fault it for reliability, but visual impact and potential risk of damage to rail and/or wheels has put me right off them.

Mark,

 

Your problem with the sparking could be the godsend for third rail modellers.  There maybe scope to replicate the arc when a shoe comes off the conductor rail...

 

This is not sarcasm

 

Thanks

 

Ernie

[Mark Forrest]

Mark,

 

Your problem with the sparking could be the godsend for third rail modellers.  There maybe scope to replicate the arc when a shoe comes off the conductor rail...

 

This is not sarcasm

 

Thanks

 

Ernie

 

I suppose that's one solution; I could install 3rd rail 

[WIMorrison]

As I said above, my experience of them is somewhat different:

GOPR0204.jpg

 

Can't fault it for reliability, but visual impact and potential risk of damage to rail and/or wheels has put me right off them.

Is this a sound loco with all the bells and whistles? If it is that would explain the arc as they draw a hefty current when re-establishing pickup. There are many accessories around that fall over completely due to the inrush of current drawn by sound locos.