westerner Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I wonder if any one could be of help? A simple question did Class 14's operate in the South West and during what time period before they were sold off? Many thanks in anticipation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Allocations and withdrawal dates here. http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=14&type=D&page=alloc Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Allocations and withdrawal dates here. http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=14&type=D&page=alloc Jason So basically Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol and that surprisingly Great Western outpost of Hull. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted July 16, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2018 Some were withdrawn after just over 30 months, which actually had the shortest lives and cut up? Its the same as it would be if 88s were being cut up today Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 Many thanks for that link, so a further question would any of the Bristol allocated one's have reached Devon or Cornwall? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Many thanks for that link, so a further question would any of the Bristol allocated one's have reached Devon or Cornwall? Not impossible, but very doubtful. Think about it this way; these locos were primarily intended for duties/diagrams previously undertaken using pannier tanks. It would have been extremely unlikely for a Bristol allocated pannier to have ventured any further west than Taunton, and I'd think even that would have been unusual. That said, whilst I don't know if it ever happened in reality, the fact that no Class 14's were ever allocated to sheds in the farther West Country doesn't preclude a possibility of the odd one being trialled in the area. That's probably skirting round the edges of Rule One though. By the time they entered traffic, nearly all the remaining work in Devon and Cornwall that might have suited them had already gone over to NBL Type 2s (CL.22). John Edited July 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Allocations and withdrawal dates here. http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=14&type=D&page=alloc Jason Its a shame this information does not show those that moved on to industrial use after withdrawal. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2018 Allocations and withdrawal dates here. http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=14&type=D&page=alloc Jason Explains why I never saw one. Started spotting at Temple Meads at the end of Summer 1967 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2018 So basically Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol and that surprisingly Great Western outpost of Hull. Some also worked in the Gloucester area, mainly on the Forest of Dean lines Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Some also worked in the Gloucester area, mainly on the Forest of Dean lines And on trips to wherever the Lister factory was; Dursley? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Its a shame this information does not show those that moved on to industrial use after withdrawal. Gordon A Gordon, . Hope this brief summary of D95xx industrial disposals helps D9500, D9502, D9504, D9508,D9511,D9513,D9514,D9517,D9518,D9521,D9525,D9527,D9528, D9531,D9535,D9536,D9540,D9545,D9555 - NCB D9503, D9507, D9510,D9512,D9515 (later exported to Spain),D9516, D9520, D9523,D9529,D9532,D9533,D9537,D9539,D9541,D9542,D9544,D9547,D9548 (later exported to Spain),D9549 (later exported to Spain), D9551,D9552,D9553, D9554 (power unit later exported to Nigeria) - Stewarts & Lloyds D9505, D9534 - Earles Cement (Derbys), then exported to Belgium. D9524 - BP Chemicals D9526 - APCM Westbury, also worked at their Dunstable (Beds) works. D9530 - Gulf Oil, Waterston, Pembs. later sold to NCB Mardy Colliery, Maerdy. D9538 - Shell Haven, Stanford-le-Hope, then sold to BSC Ebbw Vale via overhaul at BR Swindon, later transferred to BSC/S&L Corby for spares. D9543,D9546,D9550 - R.E.Trem, Finningley - believed for the power unit and component recovery, remainder scrapped by C.F.Booth. . Brian R 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Not impossible, but very doubtful. Think about it this way; these locos were primarily intended for duties/diagrams previously undertaken using pannier tanks. They came too late in the day, Had they been around in 1955 then they might have saved some branch lines, but why an 0-6-0? A 60 mph centre cab B-B in the style of the GE 44 tonners was needed to replace the Panners which could run at 60 mph and more when keeping out of the way of main line trains. As it was there was a requirement for one class 14 for the Forest of Dean most days and that was about it.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) They came too late in the day, Had they been around in 1955 then they might have saved some branch lines, but why an 0-6-0? A 60 mph centre cab B-B in the style of the GE 44 tonners was needed to replace the Panners which could run at 60 mph and more when keeping out of the way of main line trains. As it was there was a requirement for one class 14 for the Forest of Dean most days and that was about it.. Like a Class 17. , but you really wouldn't want to be on a pannier doing a mile-a-minute even if you could wind it up to that. Most of them got pretty "lumpy" at anything much over 35 IIRC.. By 1964, any pannier replacement would have been largely a solution in search of a problem as most such traffic had been given up. However, there were a few remaining trip workings, mainly covered (with some inconvenience) using 08s, that would have benefited from the higher service speed of a 14 (45?) One that springs to mind was the Exeter-Whimple trips for Whiteways Cider, which lasted until around 1980 IIRC. I think there were one or two other candidates, though Hemyock had already become Type 2 territory. There were also plenty of places that didn't need the short wheelbase of an 08 and where a 14 would have been more versatile. However, that had been the case long before they were conceived and an 08 variant with longer wheelbase and higher gearing would have been more logical as the rest of it could have been standard. Just another case of the "Great Western Region" having to be different? John Edited July 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Many thanks for that link, so a further question would any of the Bristol allocated one's have reached Devon or Cornwall? In short - no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Like a Class 17. , but you really wouldn't want to be on a pannier doing a mile-a-minute even if you could wind it up to that. Most of them got pretty "lumpy" at anything much over 35 IIRC.. By 1964, any pannier replacement would have been largely a solution in search of a problem as most such traffic had been given up. However, there were a few remaining trip workings, mainly covered (with some inconvenience) using 08s, that would have benefited from the higher service speed of a 14 (45?) One that springs to mind was the Exeter-Whimple trips for Whiteways Cider, which lasted until around 1980 IIRC. I think there were one or two other candidates, though Hemyock had already become Type 2 territory. There were also plenty of places that didn't need the short wheelbase of an 08 and where a 14 would have been more versatile. However, that had been the case long before they were conceived and an 08 variant with longer wheelbase and higher gearing would have been more logical as the rest of it could have been standard. Just another case of the "Great Western Region" having to be different? John One of the reasons why the SR had the 09s. That slightly higher speed made all the difference. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) One of the reasons why the SR had the 09s. That slightly higher speed made all the difference. Jason Not to the crew it didn't. A ride quality that is vaguely uncomfortable at 17mph becomes seasickness-inducing at 27..….. Seeing one (after departing the SR) on trip workings between the two yards at Newport reminded me of nothing so much as watching white-water rafting. John Edited July 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Like a Class 17. , but you really wouldn't want to be on a pannier doing a mile-a-minute even if you could wind it up to that. Most of them got pretty "lumpy" at anything much over 35 IIRC.. By 1964, any pannier replacement would have been largely a solution in search of a problem as most such traffic had been given up. However, there were a few remaining trip workings, mainly covered (with some inconvenience) using 08s, that would have benefited from the higher service speed of a 14 (45?) One that springs to mind was the Exeter-Whimple trips for Whiteways Cider, which lasted until around 1980 IIRC. I think there were one or two other candidates, though Hemyock had already become Type 2 territory. There were also plenty of places that didn't need the short wheelbase of an 08 and where a 14 would have been more versatile. However, that had been the case long before they were conceived and an 08 variant with longer wheelbase and higher gearing would have been more logical as the rest of it could have been standard. Just another case of the "Great Western Region" having to be different? John There are logs of 94XX Panniers running at just nudging 60MPH on 8 coach Suburban trains along the Thames Valley deputising for 61XX. They also did some impressive sprints between Cheltenham and Gloucester on the London Expresses as did smaller Panniers on the Sharpness to Lydney via Gloucester School trains after the Severn bridge fell down.. The 2021 class were diagrammed for Swindon Gloucester expresses in their early years with their 4ft wheels. These were serious mixed traffic locos with balanced wheels, very different to the 0-6-0T shunters many railways built which were only intended for Shunting like the LNER J50. I believe even the steam brake only 67XX Panniers had standard 57XX balanced wheels. That said I'm not sure I would fancy being on one at 60. I suspect the 14s were built to give the lads at Swindon something to do using the existing tooling, and the 17s because someone in the PR department liked the look of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 So basically Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol and that surprisingly Great Western outpost of Hull. The Hull transfer was BR's desperate search for jobs for them to do. I think they realised their mistake soon after the locos entered traffic (or maybe before that), but there were lots of transfer goods trains between the docks and yards in Hull and it seemed like a good idea to move some (which were not bought by industry) where they might do useful work. Judging by the number of photos of them on transfer freights around Cardiff and Radyr by Robert Masterman, they appear to have done more useful work for BR than the common myths might have you believe. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 There are logs of 94XX Panniers running at just nudging 60MPH on 8 coach Suburban trains along the Thames Valley deputising for 61XX. They also did some impressive sprints between Cheltenham and Gloucester on the London Expresses as did smaller Panniers on the Sharpness to Lydney via Gloucester School trains after the Severn bridge fell down.. The 2021 class were diagrammed for Swindon Gloucester expresses in their early years with their 4ft wheels. These were serious mixed traffic locos with balanced wheels, very different to the 0-6-0T shunters many railways built which were only intended for Shunting like the LNER J50. I believe even the steam brake only 67XX Panniers had standard 57XX balanced wheels. That said I'm not sure I would fancy being on one at 60. I suspect the 14s were built to give the lads at Swindon something to do using the existing tooling, and the 17s because someone in the PR department liked the look of them. I don't think it was as simplistic as that. The centre cab 'switcher' idea had been successful in many countries, and removed the big drawback with the class 08s and 20s, which was the poor visibility when driving bonnet first. The original idea was quite sound. Sadly the locos' reliability problems and the rapid loss of wagonload traffic to the roads were the main reasons for their demise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 17, 2018 The Hull transfer was BR's desperate search for jobs for them to do. I think they realised their mistake soon after the locos entered traffic (or maybe before that), but there were lots of transfer goods trains between the docks and yards in Hull and it seemed like a good idea to move some (which were not bought by industry) where they might do useful work. Judging by the number of photos of them on transfer freights around Cardiff and Radyr by Robert Masterman, they appear to have done more useful work for BR than the common myths might have you believe. I remember reading in a magazine that their problem at Hull was insufficient braking ability, which required them to be used in pairs; but since they couldn't run in multiple, they needed two crews. There is a photo somewhere on the web showing a train hauled by two class 14s and a WD 2-8-0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) There are logs of 94XX Panniers running at just nudging 60MPH on 8 coach Suburban trains along the Thames Valley deputising for 61XX. They also did some impressive sprints between Cheltenham and Gloucester on the London Expresses as did smaller Panniers on the Sharpness to Lydney via Gloucester School trains after the Severn bridge fell down.. The 2021 class were diagrammed for Swindon Gloucester expresses in their early years with their 4ft wheels. These were serious mixed traffic locos with balanced wheels, very different to the 0-6-0T shunters many railways built which were only intended for Shunting like the LNER J50. I believe even the steam brake only 67XX Panniers had standard 57XX balanced wheels. That said I'm not sure I would fancy being on one at 60. I suspect the 14s were built to give the lads at Swindon something to do using the existing tooling, and the 17s because someone in the PR department liked the look of them. I would have thought that water capacity (or rather a comparative lack of it) would have ensured that such high jinks would only have been undertaken on a regular basis for short sprints like Swindon-Gloucester, and with locos in tip-top condition. In any case, "mixed traffic" when applied to a Victorian pannier tank meant something very different to the same phrase used in relation to (say) a Hall or even a Manor. My comments related to panniers in the sort of state most were by 1960 when I started to encounter them, rather than the early years (pre-1900) of the 2021 class. The rpm attained by 4ft 1 1/2 in. wheels at 60 mph would have rivalled Mallard at 126 (just done the maths) City of Truro doing the ton. Not something that would have happened on a daily basis. The 5 ft. 2 in classes would definitely do 60 though, as would the 14xx if given their head on a light train. John Edited July 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 They did seem to have problems stopping trains; they didn't often work loaded trains in the Valleys. BR weren't the only railway to have built locos to cover work that had, or soon would, disappear; SNCF built a class of small B-B called the BB71000. Nicknamed the 'Pedalo', they'd been intended for similar traffic to the 95ers. Their SNCF career was brief, but they found further employment as industrial shunters, and working secondary lines, such as those around Autun; these latter were replaced by 4 EE Class 20s that had worked on the Channel Tunnel. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Several, if not all the Cardiff Valleys trips still diagrammed for nine-fivers in 1967 became ,Cl.08 jobs as the nine-fiver fleet dwindled. Such places are now all consigned to history e.g. Penarth Cement Works, Ferry Road, Penarth Curve North, Ely Paper Mill, Treforest Trading Estate, Treforest Coal Yard, Stormstown, Gabalfa Coal Yard, Stanton & Staveley, Roath Line Sidings, even Radyr Yard. Edited July 17, 2018 by br2975 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 ............ Judging by the number of photos of them on transfer freights around Cardiff and Radyr by Robert Masterman, they appear to have done more useful work for BR than the common myths might have you believe. .Well said that man ! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Robert 'Bob' Masterman has been an active photographer capturing on film the 'everyday' South Wales railway scene since about 1962/1963. . His images have earned great praise from those privileged to view them. . This is an example of Bob's work, taken from a DMU near Llandaff (for Whitchurch) on the outskirts of Cardiff on 29th. April, 1966.. . D9522 is waiting for the road, held on the Llandaff Loop, with a mixed freight from Radyr Yard, which needs to cross the Taff vale main line to gain the goods lines at Llandaff. . The mixture of stock is of interest, a solitary coke hopper and six limestone/iron hoppers could be en-route to Llantrisant, but then further back are several Conflat 'L' wagons used in traffic from Walnut Tree West, possibly bound for Ebbw Vale steel works. . Radyr Yard can be seen in the distance behind the two brackets, and Radyr Quarry Junction 'box can just be made out above the p.w. hut. . Radyr shed is just out of shot to the right. . Behind the left hand telegraph pole can be seen the Radyr Quarry Junction to Penarth Curve North then freight only line, now solely a passenger route and now marketed as the 'City Line' Copyright, Bob Masterman. Edited July 18, 2018 by br2975 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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