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2 wires? - your 'avin a larff.





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#151 Bucoops

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 13:09

The control manner is irrelevant - a quality build will be better than a poor quality one. Both methods have their place, their supporters and their detractors.


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#152 Junctionmad

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 02:00

Earlier on this year I was helping my mate with his DC layout, not one electrical fault all weekend. The very very noisy DCC layout nearby kept going quiet all of a sudden, at least once every hour while the next problem was sorted. Lots of blokes standing with their hand sets waving around and nothing happening.

 

Poor wiring, design and unnecessary complication are symptoms of over ambitious modellers, both DC and DCC.  Lack of operator training, and lack of testing before a show are also problems equally applicable to DCC and DC layouts.

 

 

Boy was it lovely when that noisy layout hit its next fault.

 

True 

 

But,  when a large DC layout generates a fault there is usually oodles more wiring then an equivalent DCC one , especially where DC Cab control or other more advanced section switching is deployed 

 

With DCC as the layouts grows the complexity of the wiring doesnt  like  grow  in complexity , unlike DC , where the drawbacks of common loco feeds, leads you to install section switching , multiple DC controllers etc , all of which add considerable complexity , loads more wiring and are harder to debug, then a DCC system 


Edited by Junctionmad, 16 October 2018 - 02:01 .


#153 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 07:49

True 

 

But,  when a large DC layout generates a fault there is usually oodles more wiring then an equivalent DCC one , especially where DC Cab control or other more advanced section switching is deployed 

 

With DCC as the layouts grows the complexity of the wiring doesnt  like  grow  in complexity , unlike DC , where the drawbacks of common loco feeds, leads you to install section switching , multiple DC controllers etc , all of which add considerable complexity , loads more wiring and are harder to debug, then a DCC system 

I wish you had read the post you quoted.

 

"Earlier on this year I was helping my mate with his DC layout, not one electrical fault all weekend. The very very noisy DCC layout nearby kept going quiet all of a sudden....."

 

Your post reads as if DC layouts are going to fail. Many don't , like many DCC layouts don't.

 

"Poor wiring, design and unnecessary complication are symptoms of over ambitious modellers, both DC and DCC.  Lack of operator training, and lack of testing before a show are also problems equally applicable to DCC and DC layouts."

 

A few tricks in sorting DC problems out, no common return, all wires labeled and documented and keep things simple.

100_4799.JPG

it took an eleven year old about 10 minutes to get to grips with this, easy.


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#154 Colin_McLeod

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 08:12

It's a hobby to be enjoyed. Why all this "DCC is better" "DC is better" "DCC has this disadvantage" "DC has that disadvantage" " My favourite football team is better than your team" "My Dad can beat your Dad"

Anyway I have one of each. A DCC two rail layout that I really enjoy and a Hornby Dublo 3 rail DC layout that I also really enjoy.

Both have lots of wires. ;)
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#155 WIMorrison

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 08:30

...
it took an eleven year old about 10 minutes to get to grips with this, easy.


‘Get to grips’ meaning operate or ‘get to grips’ in repairing a fault - very different.

#156 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 11:51

‘Get to grips’ meaning operate or ‘get to grips’ in repairing a fault - very different.

You are trying to be controversial. 

 

Oddly since I built my layout, well got it working there have been no faults that are purely electrical. When first wired up some of the relays switching the frog polarity didn't fully function, so I bypassed the resistors, and they work fine. Operator errors , yes, but I am still learning to get the best out of it. A few mechanical problems, like when I was painting the track I  physically moved a point, when I went to run the layout there was a short. The relay switching the power to the frog was in the opposite position to the point a quick switch one way and then back , short gone. It was easy to locate where the short was by turning off all sections and then one by one turn each section on and the section with the short is identified. Hence I do not use a common return, each section is electrically isolated from the others.  I was getting a derailment on a point the other night. Looking at the point some how a small piece of plastic had found its way into the between the check and stock rails. There is one point that I was too enthusiastic with the rust paint and the blades of the point need a clean to make a good electrical contact.

 

Having spent a day helping my mate with his DCC layout the conclusion with his point polarity problem was the DCC 80s he was using were not getting enough oomph, same problem as my DC ones.  I cannot comment on how he operates his layout if his DCC layout gets more or less operator errors. I think the other problems I have had are not down to my miles of DC wire but could also happen on a DCC layout.


Edited by Andy Y, 16 October 2018 - 14:34 .


#157 Alan Kettlewell

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 13:14

After doing some construction work on my layout down the big shed recently, yesterday I cleaned up the mess, vacuumed and cleaned all the track so I could have a nice running session today. Talk about gremlins! I was completely baffled why trains were suddenly stopping in one particular area. After some investigation I discovered, quite surprisingly, that I'd omitted to solder dropper wires to that one length of track. I say quite surprised because I was rigorous in my track laying and wiring standards, using appropriate gauge bus wires, no reliance on turnout blades for electrical contact, etc, etc and droppers on every piece of track of course - all except this one piece!

So for the past 2 to 3 years everything has been running very well and that bit of track has been receiving power through track joiners alone, and sure as eggs is eggs, that let me down.

Moral to the story - no matter whether we prefer to model in DC or DCC, we have to do it right.

Cheers ... Alan
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#158 Haymarket47

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 15:22

It's a hobby to be enjoyed. Why all this "DCC is better" "DC is better" "DCC has this disadvantage" "DC has that disadvantage" " My favourite football team is better than your team" "My Dad can beat your Dad"
Anyway I have one of each. A DCC two rail layout that I really enjoy and a Hornby Dublo 3 rail DC layout that I also really enjoy.
Both have lots of wires. ;)


Hear here
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#159 Junctionmad

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 16:25

It's a hobby to be enjoyed. Why all this "DCC is better" "DC is better" "DCC has this disadvantage" "DC has that disadvantage" " My favourite football team is better than your team" "My Dad can beat your Dad"

Anyway I have one of each. A DCC two rail layout that I really enjoy and a Hornby Dublo 3 rail DC layout that I also really enjoy.

Both have lots of wires. ;)

 

The point is that this is a engineering i.e. scientific comparison and is not subjective like football.  Hence if you evaluate the issue , you can reasonably arrive at an impartial conclusion as to which system is better.  Better being defined in engineering terms , like amount of wiring , reliably , ease of debugging and most importantly the ability to operate like the prototype 

 

A better comparison might be comparing a Horse and a car  as a means of taking 4 people on a journey of 50 miles .  From a scientific comparison , clearly the car is superior and therefore one can arrive at a conclusion that the car is " best ".  Subjectively , many horse fanciers might disagree, but thats different 

 

Hence I'm not in this discussion to deride one solution or the other , merely a dispassionate comparison with the outcome being a determination  of the best system


Edited by Junctionmad, 17 October 2018 - 16:31 .


#160 Junctionmad

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 16:30

 

I wish you had read the post you quoted.

 

"Earlier on this year I was helping my mate with his DC layout, not one electrical fault all weekend. The very very noisy DCC layout nearby kept going quiet all of a sudden....."

 

Your post reads as if DC layouts are going to fail. Many don't , like many DCC layouts don't.

I wish you had read mine 

 

Ive debugged and repaired several DC layouts and some DCC layouts. Of course many implemented systems are equally bad. 

 

However unless extremely well documented , any large DC layout with significant amounts of section switching and multiple controllers, which contains , a hell of a lot more complex wiring then an equivalent DCC one, is very hard to debug.

 

I have not suggested that DC layouts " are going to fail " , some do and some dont, ( just like DCC ones ) the issue is fixing a complex DC layout is much more involved then  its equivalent ( in track formations ) DCC layout as metre for metre there is considerably more wire  involved in a DC layout then a DCC layout ( even if there ar more then 2 wires in both cases !)

 

Note I have a friend that runs his rather large layout purely on two wires from his DCC controller to his track  ( NCE) . , relying solely on rail joiners and insulfrogs  !!!


Edited by Junctionmad, 18 October 2018 - 10:02 .


#161 trustytrev

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Posted 21 October 2018 - 20:29

Hello,

      The 2 wire scenario with dcc can be summed up like this.

One long straight length of track with 2 wires and X number of dcc locomotives all able to run together or alone independently of each other at same time.

One long straight length of track with 2 wires and X number of dc  locomotives NOT all able to run together or alone independently of each other at same time.

Then again one could revert to clockwork

trustytrev.:)


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#162 Crewlisle

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 01:30

Earlier on this year I was helping my mate with his DC layout, not one electrical fault all weekend. The very very noisy DCC layout nearby kept going quiet all of a sudden, at least once every hour while the next problem was sorted. Lots of blokes standing with their hand sets waving around and nothing happening.

 

Poor wiring, design and unnecessary complication are symptoms of over ambitious modellers, both DC and DCC.  Lack of operator training, and lack of testing before a show are also problems equally applicable to DCC and DC layouts.................

 

 

 

Clive,

 

This is the 'heretic' here who should be burnt at the stake for his belief in not using frog polarity switches!  I agree entirely with your last paragraph of 'unnecessary complication'.  I have been DCC for 10 years on my +40 year old layout 'Crewlisle'.  I use a Lenz LZV 100 command module & two LH90 hand controllers & a track bus with droppers about every metre (not every track length).  I do not use polarity switches on my 30 Peco Code 100 Electrofrogs but rely on the point blades for electrical continuity.  The only polarity switch on my layout is for the live diamond.  Of about 10 exhibitions I have attended with DCC, including twice at Ally Pally & twice at the NEC, I have had two minor electrical failures in sidings & still managed to run two & sometimes four trains simultaneously.  The show must go on & entertain the visitors!

 

Before I converted to DCC, the articles I read in magazines implied you required a degree in electronics.  After a little practical investigation, nothing could be simpler converting a DC layout to DCC.  My layout is on three interconnected levels, fits your second bedroom with 50 locos & stock to match.  I agree it requires more than two wires, but the increased operating potential makes it all worthwhile.

 

Peter


Edited by Crewlisle, 22 October 2018 - 01:32 .

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#163 davetheroad

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 07:22

Hello,

      The 2 wire scenario with dcc can be summed up like this.

One long straight length of track with 2 wires and X number of dcc locomotives all able to run together or alone independently of each other at same time.

One long straight length of track with 2 wires and X number of dc  locomotives NOT all able to run together or alone independently of each other at same time.

Then again one could revert to clockwork

trustytrev. :)

Or use radio control and onboard battery power with the advantage that you don't need ANY wires!



#164 WIMorrison

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 08:39

Until you want to change a turnout or signal ...
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#165 lyneux

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 16:09

Earlier on this year I was helping my mate with his DC layout, not one electrical fault all weekend. The very very noisy DCC layout nearby kept going quiet all of a sudden, at least once every hour while the next problem was sorted. Lots of blokes standing with their hand sets waving around and nothing happening.

 

Poor wiring, design and unnecessary complication are symptoms of over ambitious modellers, both DC and DCC.  Lack of operator training, and lack of testing before a show are also problems equally applicable to DCC and DC layouts.

 

 

Boy was it lovely when that noisy layout hit its next fault.

 

Clive,

 

I'm not sure that you can call short-circuiting a 'fault'. The 'fault' (if there is one) is one of poor design of power districts or lack of frog juicers (depending on your design preference).

 

Did the show in question begin with an 'S' by any chance?  :sungum:

 

Guy



#166 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 16:40

Clive,

 

I'm not sure that you can call short-circuiting a 'fault'. The 'fault' (if there is one) is one of poor design of power districts or lack of frog juicers (depending on your design preference).

 

Did the show in question begin with an 'S' by any chance?  :sungum:

 

Guy

Hi Guy

 

When there is regular short circuiting, thus causing a layout to cease functioning until it sorted is poor design. Model railway layouts are not complicated electrically DCC or DC so there should not be short circuits.

 

Yes it was the show you mentioned where there were a lot of DCC layouts that appeared to run satisfactorily over the weekend.



#167 lyneux

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 21:55

Given that every time you drive a train over a turnout set in the wrong direction you get a short circuit, you can’t really call this a fault with the layout. It’s an operator error maybe but hands up anyone whose never done this.... thought so.

The best that you can hope for is to mitigate for short circuits, not prevent them. I agree with you that not mitigating for them and having the whole layout shut down is poor electrical design.

Guy

#168 newbryford

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:22

Given that every time you drive a train over a turnout set in the wrong direction you get a short circuit, you can’t really call this a fault with the layout. It’s an operator error maybe but hands up anyone whose never done this.... thought so.

The best that you can hope for is to mitigate for short circuits, not prevent them. I agree with you that not mitigating for them and having the whole layout shut down is poor electrical design.

Guy

 

DC layouts will shut down with a short.

It's just that it's very audibly obvious with DCC sound. Maybe Clive didn't hear the DC layouts switching off?

 

:music:



#169 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 08:44

Hi Guy

 

When there is regular short circuiting, thus causing a layout to cease functioning until it sorted is poor design. Model railway layouts are not complicated electrically DCC or DC so there should not be short circuits.

 

Yes it was the show you mentioned where there were a lot of DCC layouts that appeared to run satisfactorily over the weekend.

 

DC layouts will shut down with a short.

It's just that it's very audibly obvious with DCC sound. Maybe Clive didn't hear the DC layouts switching off?

 

:music:

The bold in my quote included a layout where the viewers are advised to wear sunglasses. :blind: It appeared to run very well apart form a very worried look on the owners face for most of the time. :pardon:

 

Serious head on.....I believe that in designing a layout you design how you are going to operate it prototypically, and train the operators to drive it correctly. Many years ago Hanging Hill was given over to a bunch of DCC guys and set up to run DCC. They had more than a few short circuits most were where the operators were not use to the layout and they parked their locos across the join of two sections, which was OK when the point was set for that road. When switched it caused a short through the loco. My normal gang who were use to running it on DC knew were the scenic markers for the sections were, oil drums, lamps, drivers etc and would not pass these. No matter how many times I told the DCC guys it didn't seem to sink in, because with DCC you can park your loco anywhere. Again when there was a short.......what was the hit The Tremeloes had?

 

It doesn't matter if a layout is DC or DCC poor design and lack of operator training there will be problems. Normally you can hear when a DC layout shuts down "Oi Charlie I can't any trains to move, AGAIN" as the baffled operator is pushing the loco.


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#170 Crosland

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:30

DC layouts will shut down with a short.

 

That's where a DC layout may score. Only the sections switched to the controller that shorts will shut down. You get the same on DCC by thoughtful provision of power districts. Manily to protect against operator error than any inherent fault in DCC.

 

Many years ago Hanging Hill was given over to a bunch of DCC guys and set up to run DCC. They had more than a few short circuits most were where the operators were not use to the layout and they parked their locos across the join of two sections, which was OK when the point was set for that road. When switched it caused a short through the loco. My normal gang who were use to running it on DC knew were the scenic markers for the sections were, oil drums, lamps, drivers etc and would not pass these. No matter how many times I told the DCC guys it didn't seem to sink in, because with DCC you can park your loco anywhere. Again when there was a short.......what was the hit The Tremeloes had?

 

Sounds like the switched sections are way too long. Frog switching (or power routing turnouts) for DCC should switch the frog and very little else.



#171 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 13:43

That's where a DC layout may score. Only the sections switched to the controller that shorts will shut down. You get the same on DCC by thoughtful provision of power districts. Manily to protect against operator error than any inherent fault in DCC.

 

 

Sounds like the switched sections are way too long. Frog switching (or power routing turnouts) for DCC should switch the frog and very little else.

They were not too long, I had worked out well in advance, on a full size paper template the safest forward a loco could be without it being clobbered by a loco going through the point in the other direction. The ideal place for a section brake is where trains would rest operationally. That is where I placed the markers. It was untrained operators who were parking locos incorrectly. Locos are not left over point work on a depot because they block more than one road.



#172 newbryford

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 13:52

They were not too long, I had worked out well in advance, on a full size paper template the safest forward a loco could be without it being clobbered by a loco going through the point in the other direction. The ideal place for a section brake is where trains would rest operationally. That is where I placed the markers. It was untrained operators who were parking locos incorrectly. Locos are not left over point work on a depot because they block more than one road.

 

So what you're saying is that you didn't train the operators where to/not to leave the locos...……….. :locomotive:  



#173 Clive Mortimore

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 14:04

So what you're saying is that you didn't train the operators where to/not to leave the locos...……….. :locomotive:  

Hi Mick

 

It was at Showcase many moons ago. On the second day the layout was configured for DCC and there was an open invite for people to run their  BR blue DCC locos on it. despite me trying to tell operators the procedure they were not listening in the main to the point when I started to take the layout apart a couple were still trying to run their locos as if it was their train set.

 

There were a few instances where two locos (owned by different people) had the same address and both would start to move. Not everyone had the number one end as the forward setting so locos were going backwards not forwards if driven by someone else.

 

On the first day with my normal crew and my stock it ran about the best it had ever run.



#174 lyneux

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 14:57

Hi Mick

 

It was at Showcase many moons ago. On the second day the layout was configured for DCC and there was an open invite for people to run their  BR blue DCC locos on it. despite me trying to tell operators the procedure they were not listening in the main to the point when I started to take the layout apart a couple were still trying to run their locos as if it was their train set.

 

There were a few instances where two locos (owned by different people) had the same address and both would start to move. Not everyone had the number one end as the forward setting so locos were going backwards not forwards if driven by someone else.

 

On the first day with my normal crew and my stock it ran about the best it had ever run.

 

Sounds like chaos Clive..... what were you thinking?!?  :scratchhead: