Heritage Railways ROUTINELY using pre-Nationalisation Coaches?

[justin1985]

I've always found a bit a disappointment when I travel to a heritage railway and the stock provided on steam services turns out to be BR Mk1s. I understand that for the general public even a BR Mk1 probably looks and feels sufficiently different to the Electrostars and Desiros that they're used to day to day, and for the railways they're the most efficient and easily maintained for general service. But still, its more than a bit samey, and frankly quite boring.

 

I find it especially disappointing when the railway's marketing prominently features pre-nationalisation or even pre-grouping coaches, but when you turn up, you don't get the chance to ride in them. e.g. recently I visited the KESR, which always seems to have a Terrier and 4 wheel coaches in its advertising, but in practice the only stock I saw in action were some Mk1 TSOs in a particularly dreary house livery, and inside upholstered in what seemed suspiciously like South West Trains red/yellow moquette! 

 

So, are there any heritage railways that use exclusively, or at least predominantly, pre-Mk 1 stock? 

 

Or where railways operate both Mk1s and pre-nationalisation coaches, do any timetable which operate which services, so you can plan in advance and avoid the Mk1s?

 

I think I once travelled in Maunsell stock on the Bluebell, and Gresley on the Severn Valley - but probably more by luck than design - I think both operate more Mk1s than anything else? The place I've found pre-grouping four wheelers routinely in service is the Mid-Suffolk - it would be nice to experience genuinely historic travel on a slightly longer journey! 

 

Justin

[pete_mcfarlane]

The SVR always seems to have LMS, LNER or GWR rakes in service whenever I visit it. 

[Nearholmer]

Bluebell always seems to turn out interesting, not Mk1, coaches, but be careful not to be tricked by the Bulleids, which people sometimes think at first glimpse are Mk1.

 

Isle of Wight Rly uses superb coaches.

 

SWanage I was a bit disappointed with, because the train was the one I used to travel home from work on (Crompton and Mk1s), and although it was mildly nostalgic, nothing that ran during my working life can be 'heritage', can it???

 

The KESR had a mixed rake, befitting its heritage, of ancient Met and SECR and Mk1 in service when we visited last summer, and my family elected to travel in Mk1, because we could all sit round a table, and have a good big window, which tells you something about what non-gricer customers want.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Nearholmer

[phil-b259]

I've always found a bit a disappointment when I travel to a heritage railway and the stock provided on steam services turns out to be BR Mk1s. I understand that for the general public even a BR Mk1 probably looks and feels sufficiently different to the Electrostars and Desiros that they're used to day to day, and for the railways they're the most efficient and easily maintained for general service. But still, its more than a bit samey, and frankly quite boring.

 

I find it especially disappointing when the railway's marketing prominently features pre-nationalisation or even pre-grouping coaches, but when you turn up, you don't get the chance to ride in them. e.g. recently I visited the KESR, which always seems to have a Terrier and 4 wheel coaches in its advertising, but in practice the only stock I saw in action were some Mk1 TSOs in a particularly dreary house livery, and inside upholstered in what seemed suspiciously like South West Trains red/yellow moquette! 

 

So, are there any heritage railways that use exclusively, or at least predominantly, pre-Mk 1 stock? 

 

Or where railways operate both Mk1s and pre-nationalisation coaches, do any timetable which operate which services, so you can plan in advance and avoid the Mk1s?

 

I think I once travelled in Maunsell stock on the Bluebell, and Gresley on the Severn Valley - but probably more by luck than design - I think both operate more Mk1s than anything else? The place I've found pre-grouping four wheelers routinely in service is the Mid-Suffolk - it would be nice to experience genuinely historic travel on a slightly longer journey! 

 

Justin

 

When operating a two train service, the Bluebell has a policy of trying to operate one 'Heritage' train with a smaller loco and the other being a Ml1 / Bulleid rake with a larger engine. Various online resources / webpages will tell you which departures are planned to have the 'vintage' stock on them - see here for example! http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pti/index.html

 

The 3 Maunsells are normally used in a 'vintage' role - sometimes with the similarly liveried ex SECR '100 seater' compartment coach to boost capacity.

 

When a one train service is being run, then it is always the MK1 based set - the RMB in the set and the large number of coach parties out of peak season who prefer to all sit together (not put in separate compartments) makes it the more suitable solution

 

One big problem is quite simply maintenance - things like the 3 wheelers, the Mets (before they got sidelined due to door lock and vacuum cylinder problems), etc is that the running gear requires more more frequent maintenance than Mk1s. As such its more effective to keep the vintage stock separate from the Mk1 based set. Other things like the birdcage brake have been sidelined by the fact that its unique Mansell wooden centred wheelsets are at such a stage that they cannot be re-profiled any more and new ones are needed at great cost before it can be used again.

 

Long term the railway has enough unrestored Maunsell stock to make up a decent length set - including a restaurant car which could take on the role the RMB currently fulfils. Unfortunately the amounts of money needed to fund such a dream is so vast that it will have to remain a dream for the foreseeable future.

Edited July 25, 2018 by phil-b259

[woodenhead]

I was a bit disappointed that this thread is 'Heritage Railways routinely using pre-Nationalisation Coaches?'  When I saw the preview I couldn't see the full word Coaches and thought it read ''Heritage Railways routinely using pre-Nationalisation Coal?' which would have been a very interesting read  

 

But the issue for most of the preserved lines is their own heritage, they began after BR had scrapped the older stock or it had already been purchased, even the older preserved lines like the Bluebell, NYMR and Severn Valley are lucky to have what they have.

 

The BR Mk1 was the most available coaching stock there was during the infancy of preservation - I expect there isn't much else out there now to buy of 1950s heritage other than swaps between preservation societies.  The BR Mk2a/b/c must also fall into that category and Mk2e/f will be the preserve of main line operators.

[justin1985]

One big problem is quite simply maintenance - things like the 3 wheelers, the Mets (before they got sidelined due to door lock and vacuum cylinder problems) is that the running gear requires more more frequent maintenance than Mk1s. As such its more effective to keep the vintage stock separate from the Mk1 based set. Other things like the birdcage brake have been sidelined by the fact that its unique Mansell wooden centred wheelsets are at such a stage that they cannot be re-profiled any more and new ones are needed at great cost before it can be used again.

 

Long term the railway has enough unrestored Maunsell stock to make up a decent length set - including a restaurant car which could take on the role the RMB currently fulfils. Unfortunately the amounts of money needed to fund such a dream is so vast that it will have to remain a dream for the foreseeable future.

 

Thanks - thats a really informative post. I had expected that maintenance on Mk1s would be easier because of the standardisation etc, compared to the quite varied range of older stock, but I hadn't appreciated that earlier stock actually required more frequent maintenance as well. 

 

Its a shame to hear about the specific issues with the Met stock and the the Birdcage stock - I looked for more info, but the carriages page of the Bluebell website says "last updated" in 2010! If there is a way to make targeted donations, I'd be interested!

 

Justin

[DaveF]

The Tanfield Railway uses 4 wheel coaches all the time.  They are usually on more modern steel underframes but have real wooden seats.

 

David

[Compound2632]

So, are there any heritage railways that use exclusively, or at least predominantly, pre-Mk 1 stock? 

 

 

Lynton & Barnstaple?

[justin1985]

But the issue for most of the preserved lines is their own heritage, they began after BR had scrapped the older stock or it had already been purchased, even the older preserved lines like the Bluebell, NYMR and Severn Valley are lucky to have what they have.

 

The BR Mk1 was the most available coaching stock there was during the infancy of preservation - I expect there isn't much else out there now to buy of 1950s heritage other than swaps between preservation societies.  The BR Mk2a/b/c must also fall into that category and Mk2e/f will be the preserve of main line operators.

 

Of course - this is all very true. But there are still an awful lot of tarpaulined older coaches continuing to moulder away in sidings, or worse.

 

I guess it comes down to a bigger question of what is a heritage railway FOR? Preserving railway items of historical significance? Education about the past? Or moving people back and forth through the countryside on Sundays and Bank Holidays? And obviously doing the latter provides a lot of the money to pay for the first two, so its not a simple question.

 

I understand that preserved railways are more "heritage businesses" rather than strictly speaking museums in the sense of being accredited and having collection management policies etc, and therefore have to manage their collections in a different way.

 

But IF we were to think of rail preservation in actual terms of what is best for preserving railway heritage, it in a "museum" way, museum collection management and disposal policies usually have mechanism to allow disposing of items which are widespread and not otherwise of historical significance, and using the funds raised for the conservation of items that are unique or of greater historical significance.

 

To go back to the original question, personally I want to vote with my feet and spend my ticket money with railways that appear to be prioritising the historical interest of their stock by using and maintaining genuinely vintage stock, rather than railways that appear to focus on just the efficiency of bums on seats.

 

I realise that I'm probably a bit of a fringe voice on this, but I can't shake the feeling that unless heritage railways make more or what they can each offer that is unique and distinctive, new generations of families etc who are less familiar with the railways will think more and more "done one, done them all" 

 

Justin

Edited July 25, 2018 by justin1985

[Compound2632]

I realise that I'm probably a bit of a fringe voice on this, but I can't shake the feeling that unless heritage railways make more or what they can each offer that is unique and distinctive, new generations of families etc who are less familiar with the railways will think more and more "done one, done them all" 

 

Justin

 

On the same fringe as me, then. I like interesting carriages, which is why I mentioned the Lynton & Barnstaple, and don't make much effort to get to standard gauge heritage lines.

[cal.n]

The NYMR have a beautiful LNER teak set that sees regular use.

[Rivercider]

From my fairly limited experience the South Devon Railway tries to operate one set of GWR stock during the high season when two trains are operating.

 

Here are some pictures I took last year.

 

Inside the train 29/8/2017

 

Departing Buckfastleigh 29/8/2017

Departing Buckfastleigh 29/8/2017

 

cheers

 

[Compound2632]

I understand that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway's youngest carriage was built in 1924 to a Brighton design - so not just no Mk1s, no Bulleids, but no Southern Railway carriages at all.

[Steamport Southport]

Of course - this is all very true. But there are still an awful lot of tarpaulined older coaches continuing to moulder away in sidings, or worse.

 

I guess it comes down to a bigger question of what is a heritage railway FOR? Preserving railway items of historical significance? Education about the past? Or moving people back and forth through the countryside on Sundays and Bank Holidays? And obviously doing the latter provides a lot of the money to pay for the first two, so its not a simple question.

 

I understand that preserved railways are more "heritage businesses" rather than strictly speaking museums in the sense of being accredited and having collection management policies etc, and therefore have to manage their collections in a different way.

 

But IF we were to think of rail preservation in actual terms of what is best for preserving railway heritage, it in a "museum" way, museum collection management and disposal policies usually have mechanism to allow disposing of items which are widespread and not otherwise of historical significance, and using the funds raised for the conservation of items that are unique or of greater historical significance.

 

To go back to the original question, personally I want to vote with my feet and spend my ticket money with railways that appear to be prioritising the historical interest of their stock by using and maintaining genuinely vintage stock, rather than railways that appear to focus on just the efficiency of bums on seats.

 

I realise that I'm probably a bit of a fringe voice on this, but I can't shake the feeling that unless heritage railways make more or what they can each offer that is unique and distinctive, new generations of families etc who are less familiar with the railways will think more and more "done one, done them all" 

 

Justin

 

Whilst I agree it's nice to have "historic" rolling stock (although BR Mark Ones are now over 60 years old) you've got to face some hard facts.

 

 

The problem is restoring vintage carriages costs money. Vast amounts of money. You are talking about costs of tens of thousands of pounds just to restore a single carriage. Why not just buy a Mark One or Two instead? Much more useful and cost effective. And preferable from an operating viewpoint.

 

There is also the fact that the vast majority of people who do get involved in railway restoration are mostly interested in locomotives or are people who like non technical duties such as signalling, guard, helping out in the gift shop, etc. Spending hundreds of hours doing woodwork is not everyone's idea of fun. Certainly not mine.

 

 

Great idea to boycott railways just because they haven't got what you want. You seem to think heritage railways are private businesses. Apart from one or two examples they aren't. They are people giving their time, effort and plenty of their own money to preserve a bit of history. Any collections of stock are almost entirely bought by individuals, not by "collection management". 

 

 

Sorry for the bit of a rant, but it really grinds my gears when people are dismissive about other peoples efforts whilst doing absolutely nothing themselves apart from complaining. If you want to see heritage rolling stock then buy some, spend hundreds of thousands of pounds restoring them and then gloat about how superior your railway is.

 

 

 

Jason

[caradoc]

The Great Western Society at Didcot uses some lovely GW coaches on its Main Line Shuttle, and a variety of stock on its Branch Line, including the steam Railmotor, GW diesel railcar, and last time I was there a clerestory coach. Only short journeys of course but still interesting.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I understand that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway's youngest carriage was built in 1924 to a Brighton design - so not just no Mk1s, no Bulleids, but no Southern Railway carriages at all.

 

If you want 1930s stock you'll have to visit the Island's mainline railway.....

[woodenhead]

I imagine a most of the income the lines receive cover the running costs of the line with a bit extra for preservation - locomotives for example require calls for funds when it comes to big restorations and although part and parcel of a railway carriages seem to come somewhere lower in the pecking order especially judging by the state of the Mk1s on one railway who felt it OK to let a Mk1 out without a toilet floor.

 

But I am sure in an ideal world all the heritage lines would prefer to be a preservation line it's just not that easy to find the money.

 

The one's that come to mind that focus on the preservation side would be the NYMR, the West Somerset, Severn Valley and the Bluebell, I can't comment on the rest it's been a long time since I've spent time on a heritage line.

[PaulG]

The North Norfolk Railway run vintage services as advertised. These two photographs taken at Holt Station, Class N2 on quad-art set and Y14 on vintage trains were taken 4/5th July; unfortunately due to weather, all trains are currently either DMU or London Transport liveried Class 20 hauled. Ironic given the number of serviceable steam locos this year.

 

Paul 

[brianusa]

It is worth remembering that heritage lines in spite of their 'museum' appellation are a business and to remain in business, they have to appeal to the widest customer base, which is of course, the general public.  Mum, dad and the kids want a ride on a train and although they recognise the difference between engines, rarely do they with carriages and they probably don't care as long as they have a good time, which is what they came for.  Enthusiasts may want authenticity, but there's not enough of them to pursue their wants lists.

 

Brian

[stovepipe]

Sorry I don't think this holds true. The NYMR run an LNER teak set, and this is more popular than the other Mk1 set used on the same day. Certainly when I have travelled on it I've heard many unprompted positive remarks from Joe Public.

[justin1985]

 

The problem is restoring vintage carriages costs money. Vast amounts of money. You are talking about costs of tens of thousands of pounds just to restore a single carriage. Why not just buy a Mark One or Two instead? Much more useful and cost effective. And preferable from an operating viewpoint.

 

Well this is exactly my point - what is the overriding aim? Is it to preserve and conserve as much of a historic railway experience as possible, and bums on seats are the means to that ends. Or are all the other bits of the railway other than the locomotive just means to an end? Its a question of emphasis, and its entirely fair that different organisations have different interpretations of what is best.

 

 

Great idea to boycott railways just because they haven't got what you want. You seem to think heritage railways are private businesses. Apart from one or two examples they aren't. They are people giving their time, effort and plenty of their own money to preserve a bit of history. Any collections of stock are almost entirely bought by individuals, not by "collection management". 

 

I never meant to imply that most railways are private for-profit enterprises. But, unless I'm misunderstanding things, most are actually structured as a Company Limited by Guarantee or similar, and configured one way or another as a not for profit or community interest type organisation. I think most railways also have a Charitable Trust or equivalent attached to them, but the registered charity seldom seems to be the actual owner of the railway.

 

I think this is what brianusa is also getting at. While the line might not be a private business, it has to be run as a business. Nothing wrong with that, but it does create a tension between what is best business, and what is best for preserving heritage.

 

It is worth remembering that heritage lines in spite of their 'museum' appellation are a business and to remain in business, they have to appeal to the widest customer base, which is of course, the general public.  Mum, dad and the kids want a ride on a train and although they recognise the difference between engines, rarely do they with carriages and they probably don't care as long as they have a good time, which is what they came for.  Enthusiasts may want authenticity, but there's not enough of them to pursue their wants lists.

 

Brian

 

 

 

Sorry for the bit of a rant, but it really grinds my gears when people are dismissive about other peoples efforts whilst doing absolutely nothing themselves apart from complaining. If you want to see heritage rolling stock then buy some, spend hundreds of thousands of pounds restoring them and then gloat about how superior your railway is.

 

 

 

Jason

 

I think that is a bit presumptuous. I work full time, and I'm a long way away from retirement, but volunteering to help restore coaches is exactly the kind of thing I'd hope I'd be able to do when I eventually get there (if retirement is still a thing by then). But I am actually a trustee of a slightly different kind of heritage charity, which supports the conservation and publication of archival records. I might not be able to spare much more time at the moment, but I can probably make a few donations, and I'm keen to, if I come across e.g. funding calls for coach restorations, or other projects that emphasise the wider social history aspect of railways.

 

Justin

[sem34090]

The two I recommend most highly here are Tanfield and the Isle of Wight - No chance of a MK1 there, and very little chance of anything post-grouping. I think Tanfield's W&U-Style 4-wheeled open-veranda coaches date from the 1950's, but with wooden seats they certainly feel more pre-grouping.

Edited July 25, 2018 by sem34090

[brianusa]

Sorry I don't think this holds true. The NYMR run an LNER teak set, and this is more popular than the other Mk1 set used on the same day. Certainly when I have travelled on it I've heard many unprompted positive remarks from Joe Public.

 

The LNER teak set is unique and if I were to ride the NYMR, I'd go for it as well, but how many like sets exist and how many would be used routinely?  With a set such as this, it should be treasured.  So other railways, less fortunate have to make do with what is available to them as a second choice.  It is unlikely that many potential passengers care that much.

 

Brian.

Edited July 25, 2018 by brianusa

[pete_mcfarlane]

Sorry I don't think this holds true. The NYMR run an LNER teak set, and this is more popular than the other Mk1 set used on the same day. Certainly when I have travelled on it I've heard many unprompted positive remarks from Joe Public.

Yes, but I've heard Joe Public make comments on how posh the coach they were in was, whilst riding in a Mk1 Suburban third...... 

[stovepipe]

The LNER teak set is unique and if I were to ride the NYMR, I'd go for it as well, but how many like sets exist and how many would be used routinely?  With a set such as this, it should be treasured.  So other railways, less fortunate have to make do with what is available to them as a second choice.  It is unlikely that many potential passengers care that much.

 

Brian.

 

They are not unique, the SVR (and the NNR) have teak sets also. The NYMR and the SVR are considered among the premier heritage lines and receive the most visitors. Are we expected to believe the coaching stock has absolutely no influence on people choosing to visit and re-visit, or on how much they enjoyed themselves? 

 

Yes, but I've heard Joe Public make comments on how posh the coach they were in was, whilst riding in a Mk1 Suburban third......

Which rather proves the point, people (and especially women I reckon) do notice when the coach is different from the norm.

Edited July 25, 2018 by stovepipe