Heritage Railways ROUTINELY using pre-Nationalisation Coaches?

[Talltim]

For me, the travel experience is the key. I ride in the coach, not on the loco, I’m not even bothered what the loco is, although the smell of steam wafting in is nice it’s not essential.

I’m currently trying to sort out a date with the Ashover Light Railway coach at Butterley,

[pete_mcfarlane]

I’m currently trying to sort out a date with the Ashover Light Railway coach at Butterley,

That is well worth a trip to Butterley. It's also amazing how many of the Ashover coaches have survived. 

[Rivercider]

The West Somerset Railway has a 'Heritage Carriages Project' mentioned on the website, to provide a fleet of carriages for special occasions,

but it is a long term project.

 

I do agree with the OP that it is preferable to have appropriate vintage stock, to match the locos, where possible,

but I do understand there are many reasons why this may not often happen.

For me an enjoyable day out is not spoilt by riding in a steam hauled DMU trailer car from Paignton to Kingswear.

But riding in a GWR coach adds a little extra something to an already enjoyable day out between Totnes and Buckfastleigh,

 

cheers 

[Reorte]

Yes, but I've heard Joe Public make comments on how posh the coach they were in was, whilst riding in a Mk1 Suburban third...... 

Reminds me of being on a Mk1 open on the East Lancs when a group of teenagers or students got on, amazed at the space, amazed at how the train seemed to start moving almost silently (and probably amazed at how rattly it was when it got above walking pace).

[Karhedron]

Different people enjoy different things in a heritage railway. My boys are old enough to understand some of the differences between the trains they ride on (I have taught them well).

 

During a ride on the Swanage railway last year, they were excited to catch the DMU back to Norden as the front blinds were open and they really enjoyed being able to see the view ahead.

 

Whilst I enjoy the atmosphere of travelling in pre-nationalisation coaches, I appreciate that not all railways can afford such luxuries and make the effort to find enjoyment in whatever they do have on offer.

[sem34090]

I would often choose a pre-grouping coach over a later one, and a pre-nationalisation one over a MK1, and a MK1 over a MK2! I think that's my pre-grouping prejudice though... at any rate I prefer a compartment!

 

Of course, I would choose any of the above over a piece of modern stock, and the earlier comment about a MK1 suburban being 'posh' is not wholly unjustified if one is used to the likes of Electrostars...

 

EDIT: I forgot to add in my earlier post that on the Isle of Wight you are guaranteed a pre-nationalisation railway vehicle to sit in from the moment you step off the ferry...

Edited July 26, 2018 by sem34090

[IWCR]

Throughout most of the preservation era the Mk1 carriage has been the easy option, cheap, readily available and "ready to run".

This is why there is so many, in most cases they were the only practical source of passenger carrying stock.

This is no longer the case, a good servicable Mk1 now is worth serious money, yes there are plenty available in need of restoration  but a heavy restoration will like the older stock also cost many 10's of thousands. In recent years there has been a steady trickle of pre-nationalisation carriages being restored and put into use, this is partly because the preserved railways are better established and now able to tackle the work but also the costs are now not really much different.

The Mk1 will remain the principle preserved railway carriage and a well restored one is a good traveling experience but the supply is limited and earlier stock is now commercially viable.

 

Pete

[caradoc]

They are not unique, the SVR (and the NNR) have teak sets also. The NYMR and the SVR are considered among the premier heritage lines and receive the most visitors. Are we expected to believe the coaching stock has absolutely no influence on people choosing to visit and re-visit, or on how much they enjoyed themselves? 

 

Which rather proves the point, people (and especially women I reckon) do notice when the coach is different from the norm.

 

Indeed, and Mark 1 stock, particularly compartment stock, is very different from anything running on the national network these days; When I was still able to coerce my children into joining me on preserved railways they delighted in having a compartment to ourselves, as I told them 'like the trains Dad used to travel on (ie when dinsosaurs still roamed the earth)'.

Edited July 26, 2018 by caradoc

[County of Yorkshire]

There is a train of thought on the NYMR that the teak coaches give around 20 years between major overhaul, when compared with just 10 years between major overhaul for Mk1's. The reason? Metal corrodes, rusts and needs patch replacement much more regularly then well looked after, thoroughly varnished teak.

 

The more restored teaks the LNERCA can outshop for the NYMR, the more Mk1's can be removed from service for overhaul, and given that the Mk1's overhaul cycle is 2:1 in favor of a teak, it makes sense to coordinate a bit more of an effort on the NYMR toward the restoration of the LNERCA's teaks in the long run. Heritage coaches are absolutely a USP and if marketed properly can more than bring in a premium return on the investment of restoring them. 

 

 

 

There are some really good heritage carraige blogs on line, and my favourite are: 

 

LNERCA

LNER (SVR) Coach Fund

Great Western (SVR) Association

NNR Carriage & Wagon Blog

WSR Heritage Carriages Project 

 

 

Sling some of these a few quid every month and we may just have some more pre-nationalisation stock to enjoy over the coming years. 

 

CoY

(Fully paid-up LNERCA member)

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by County of Yorkshire

[roythebus]

I'm a member of the KESR but haven't volunteered recently due to work commitments. There's basically 2 bogie sets available, A set is usually Mk1s with Petros the coach with disabled facilities, and the B set which is usually a mixture of Mk1s, Maunsells and maybe the sECR Birdcage brake. Then there's the DMU, the Victorian set which is the mixture of 4 wheelers and pre-grouping stock, and the Pullman set.

 

As you may have read elsewhere, one of the Pullman coaches suffered a vandalism attack a couple of weeks ago and one of the coaches had to be withdrawn from service. As it is, one of the Pullmans is out of circulation for overhaul, so a Maunsell has been used instead for the last couple of years. The A set also has the rMB used as a catering vehicle.

 

The B set is usually pre-nationalisation stock, sometimes all 4 wheelers with a small loco. Had you checked the timetable and the information board outside Tenterden station, it gives information as to what stock and locos are running on a daily basis. I suspect this week is peak season so there's 2 big Mk1/Maunsell sets running.

 

As others have said, the IWSR runs all pre-1923 stock and has recently introduced their premier rebuilt IWCR coach dating back to the 1860s.

[roythebus]

This reply from Andre Freeman, the KESR commercial manager:   "The Maunsell NBO is usually in the A set, but had to be replaced by a Mk1 TSO this week as we have very heavy bookings and need maximum capacity. Also the Maunsell NBO is needed for a private 5 Car Pullman special too!"

 

o it's usually there, but not this week when there's a kids go for a £1 offer.

[EddieB]

Others, which I haven’t seen mentioned, include the Mid-Suffolk and Foxfield, both using beautifully restored pre-grouping carriages (modern underframes notwithstanding).

[standardblue]

So, are there any heritage railways that use exclusively, or at least predominantly, pre-Mk 1 stock?

 

Or where railways operate both Mk1s and pre-nationalisation coaches, do any timetable which operate which services, so you can plan in advance and avoid the Mk1s?

 

Justin

We* run a 'vintage train' at the Pontypool & Blaenavon consisting of a GER and a pre grouping GWR inspection saloons. It's run regularly on quieter days and also when we run 2 trains (alongside the mk1s). (Details usually on the website and social media.)

 

Mark

 

* I say we, but in reality although I'm a member I've been unable to volunteer for a couple of seasons

[justin1985]

There is a train of thought on the NYMR that the teak coaches give around 20 years between major overhaul, when compared with just 10 years between major overhaul for Mk1's. The reason? Metal corrodes, rusts and needs patch replacement much more regularly then well looked after, thoroughly varnished teak.

 

The more restored teaks the LNERCA can outshop for the NYMR, the more Mk1's can be removed from service for overhaul, and given that the Mk1's overhaul cycle is 2:1 in favor of a teak, it makes sense to coordinate a bit more of an effort on the NYMR toward the restoration of the LNERCA's teaks in the long run. Heritage coaches are absolutely a USP and if marketed properly can more than bring in a premium return on the investment of restoring them. 

 

Really interesting to hear this angle on it! 

 

I think the point about the coaches being a USP is the main thing I was trying to get at - I'm sure there is more scope to make more of it, for railways that are lucky enough to have heritage stock. I hadn't actually heard of the Foxfield Railway before, but I notice their website has a prominent banner "Travel in Victorian Style" which links to a page explaining that the 1870s/1880s coaches were built for the local North Staffordshire railway etc. Their whole website also has the prominent caption "Preserving Staffordshire's Industrial Past", which makes clear straight away that it is telling a local story. 

 

As the wider public grow to know less and less about the railways, beyond Thomas, I think it will be increasingly important to be able to "tell stories" like that which explain what is distinctive about their line, and frankly, why it matters. Exhibitions explaining this kind of stuff are often relegated to a GUV van in a cattle dock or something like that, and are easily missed. Why not use the museum trick of making the most direct route to the ticket office weave through a brief, clear, exhibition that tells the story of the line and what is distinctive about it? Perhaps that might highlight the social history of the area, perhaps the distinctive carriages or locos, perhaps the landscape, etc. Most other visitor attractions seem to have placed a lot of emphasis on this kind of thing, its kind of noticeable that few railways seem to. The new buildings at the Mid Suffolk seemed like a good step in this direction!

 

I guess my point about the KESR was that you always tend to see images in tourist leaflets etc that feature the classic "light railway" combination of a terrier and four wheelers (although, to be fair, the main image on the KESR website shows a terrier with Mk1s). But, do a Google Image Search for "Kent and East Sussex Railway" and in the first screen of images, two seem to show locos with Maunsell coaches, one with a goods train, and all the rest feature pre-grouping coaches - you have to scroll down quite a way to find a Mk1. So it actually seems like they're pretty good at communicating a unique selling point (perhaps inadvertently) - which made it a bit disappointing that the pre-grouping stock doesn't seem to be part of the normal timetable at all? I guess they must only come out for special galas - but I can't see anything that sounds like that listed under "Events" on the website

 

Justin

[Paul.Uni]

So it actually seems like they're pretty good at communicating a unique selling point (perhaps inadvertently) - which made it a bit disappointing that the pre-grouping stock doesn't seem to be part of the normal timetable at all? I guess they must only come out for special galas - but I can't see anything that sounds like that listed under "Events" on the website

 

Justin

In one of the recent railway magazines there was an advert for the vintage train on the K&ESR. The running dates were weekends in July (except the Thomas weekend) and daily from 28th July to 31st August.

[admiles]

Personally I'd class Mk1s as heritage stock and I'm more than happy to travel in them. In fact I'd probably take a Mk1 over earlier stock

given the choice. The blue/grey and intercity liveried stock on the NMR for example holds more interest for me than an LNER teak set,

though I can appreciate both.

 

Maybe its an age thing?

[Dava]

The GCR normally has the Gresley teak buffet car 24278 running in one of the Mk1 sets. Railway Vehicle Preservations also has 2 Beavertail observation cars and both will be back in traffic this year, which will be unique. 1719 has the BR profile and 1729 will have the original streamlined profile and livery. There are other Gresley passenger vehicles in the line for future restoration too.

 

Dava

[ForestPines]

The SVR not only has at least 3 sets of largely pre-nationalisation carriages, but publishes the set allocations on https://www.svrlive.com/traffic-notices-and-wtt

 

It can take a bit of deciphering; but that shows that today, for example, trains AS1 and AS2 are the LNER/GNR and LMS carriage sets respectively; AN1 is a Mk1 set, and AS3 (the Sunday diner) is a nominally GWR set (the last time I saw it, it had LNER and LMS coaches in the rake too). The WTT can be downloaded from the same page to match train numbers with departure times, and a guide to the carriage set codes is at https://www.svrwiki.com/Carriages#The_carriage_sets

[Zomboid]

The Epping Ongar Railway has two teak coaches (a buffet and a Brake 3rd), though neither are close to being in service. (They've got a nice selection of blue/grey mk1 & 2s which are in use though). Obviously that's not what the OP was asking, but the idea that such a young outfit would have pre nationalisation rolling stock surprised me.

[James Harrison]

Great Central Railway (Nottingham) is home to the Great Central Rolling Stock Trust: http://gcr-rollingstocktrust.co.uk/

 

Potentially they'll ultimately have three sets of GCR carriages for use, from 1880s 6-wheelers to a rake of Barnums.  At the moment they've restored a 6-wheeler and are working on a Barnum.  As others have said, if we want to see something more 'interesting' than a Mk1 on service trains we need to be prepared to put our hands in our pockets to restore them.  Which is why I send them some £ every few months. 

[jonny777]

Personally I'd class Mk1s as heritage stock and I'm more than happy to travel in them. In fact I'd probably take a Mk1 over earlier stock

given the choice. The blue/grey and intercity liveried stock on the NMR for example holds more interest for me than an LNER teak set,

though I can appreciate both.

 

Maybe its an age thing?

 

 

I travelled in various coaches last time I visited the Bluebell, but I found a Bulleid one to be the most comfortable by quite a large margin. 

[Mike Buckner]

It's a question of utilising limited funds most effectively.

 

It's also the case that Mk 1 coaches are maximum nostalgia for people of my generation. That's not to say other vintage coaches are not wanted, they are very welcome - but Mk 1's hit the spot.

 

And families with youngsters probably don't care whether a coach is 40, 70 or 100 years old.

 

I'm sure a crowdfunded national appeal to support the complete restoration of one vintage coach would do well. Perhaps it could visit different heritage lines.

[jonny777]

I was a bit disappointed that this thread is 'Heritage Railways routinely using pre-Nationalisation Coaches?'  When I saw the preview I couldn't see the full word Coaches and thought it read ''Heritage Railways routinely using pre-Nationalisation Coal?' which would have been a very interesting read  

 

 

 

I thought this at first, but then my nerdy logic kicked in and informed me that if I thought about it, all coal is pre-nationalisation. In fact most of it is pre-dinosaur. 

[ahardy]

Regarding the K&ESR I will fill in a few details:

 

The "A" set features mostly Mk1 vehicles. Out of a 5 car train, one has to be Petros our disabled access vehicle, alongside the RMB for catering. To meet the demands of the catering bookings we then need a further two TSOs. We usually then add a Maunsell BNO into the set to give passengers a chance to see an earlier vehicle.

 

For most of the year the DMMU makes up the second service. This year during June we had the vintage set out every weekend featuring the 4 and 6 wheelers and the birdcage.

 

When three trains run we usually use the Mk1s, DMMU and Vintage, or two Mk1 rakes and a vintage.

 

The two train running season will see the Mk1 set out (which will include the BNO from the 6th August - its currently got 3 TSO vehicles in the train as the BNO is needed to strengthen the Pullman next week.)

 

The B set will be 2 or 3 Mk1 vehicles plus the Birdcage. Unfortunately the vintage train was advertised in error.

 

There are so many considerations when choosing which vehicles to run. Disabled access, catering ability and requirements, physical numbers of seats, balance of different classes, restrictions on individual vehicles, toilets and so much more. Its not an easy job!

 

If anyone on here is looking to come ride in a specific vehicle please let me know and I will advise when items are running.

 

Cheers

 

Andy H 

[avonside1563]

Foxfield's two pre-grouping North Staffordshire Railway coaches are due to be joined by the newly built Accessible Brake Coach in 2019 which will remove the need for the shark brake van. The ABC coach is a partial reconstruction utilising some parts from a NSR brake 3rd discovered near Rudyard Lake and the underframe from an LMS/Midland brakevan. Whilst it will essentially be a new vehicle there is enough of the original body to ensure it is an accurate reconstruction. The Knotty Trust is also raising funds for the overhaul of the remaining 1st class body so there will be a 4 coach set in a few years time.

 

For more info see the Knotty Coach Trust website http://www.knottycoachtrust.org.uk/