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Neilson 0-4-0ST in EM gauge


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I have a couple of lovely etched kits in the drawer but Corbs has led me astray!

Over on the Modified RTR section he has a terrific thread for modified Pugs of various kinds, and it was halfway through reading it that I realised I had a few of my own. I've had this old Hornby Caley Pug since the early 80's, having painted it in BR livery at the age of about 13. I had bought a Branchlines chassis kit for it but it was very much on the back burner until I read the thread, then I realised that after 30 years in a box this one needed to be built!

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The aim is to shorten the body and modify it to represent one of the industrial Neilsons that were basically the same as the Caley loco's. There have been a few featured on RMWeb over the years and other references are:

 

Drawing of the North British version in October 1967 Model Railway News.

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Nice pictures in Tom Heavyside's 'Ayrshire's Last Days of Colliery Steam'

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Plus this little gem off the interweb:

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With something like this it's difficult to know how much to keep and how much to throw away - For instance I think a new running plate would be easier than trying to modify the old one, especially since the chassis kit includes some nice etched steps. I haven't worked in plastic for years so I've had to buy a razor saw especially for the job, and it will get messy!

 

 

Edited by Barclay
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I'll be watching this with interest. How well does the Hornby body square up to the drawing? Is any drastic surgery needed? I'm asking because I've always thought that the Hornby model looked to be very long.

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Yes it's about 8mm too long in the tank which means cutting it into 3 bits and splicing them back together. The smokebox is a little too long too and the firebox way too fat. Plus the cab's not right for the industrial version which is much more like the NB loco. Then I've read the tank may be too wide as well. I'm hoping its not that much and can be overlooked. Otherwise its a remarkably accurate model!

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Whitworth or metric? ;)

Oh!, with the locomotive stud of Manchester Steel, Whitworth!!!

That is not counting the Shay!!!! Don't ask! It has disassembled its valve gear and drive. I have it hidden away whilst I pluck up courage to put it back together again!!!!

                                                                     C.

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Please, Mister, can we have a look at your Shay?

I'm afraid it is completely in bits!!

It is a Model Loco American kit. I got it off Ebay 15yrs ago built up.

She has lasted really well but now the masses of lubrication on the model has totally loosened everything so it dosen't work!!!

Plastic, push fit on metal only works for so long!!!

Bearing in mind I have gone so far off this thread that I'm in another country!!!

I am going to build the unbuilt kit for this loco I have. Of course I have!!! Using the other one as a pattern and then have a go at putting this one back together!!!

The unbuilt kit is at least 25yrs old!!!!

As I have already said on this thread, Industrial Nut!!!!!!

PS. The lubrication is not down to me, it comes with the built up model!!! You've got to love 'em!!!

                                                                          Chris.                                                                     

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The Branchlines chassis kit is in good strong Nickel Silver and went together very easily, though I didn't use the spacers as intended. It was necessary to move the rear spacer to give room for a gearbox, but that worked out well because I was able to use the back of it to represent the firebox/ashpan. The front one had to be reversed too so it didn't foul the horn blocks on the front axle. This shows the horn blocks being set up in the chassis with jig axles.

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There are 2 sets of spacers in the kit - 00/EM and P4. As you might expect the 00/EM ones are far too narrow for EM, especially for an 0-4-0 which needs no sideplay, so I tried the P4 ones. I did tickle them slightly with a file to remove etching cusp but only a little and they were fine - EM back to back is 16.5mm.

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Then a length of brass rod was fitted in a handy hole in the front spacer to form the compensating beam:

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I've just compared the tank to the drawing and, yes, that's too wide as well as too long, by a full 2mm. I don't think I'm brave enough to cut it down the middle as well as into 3 pieces lengthways, so I think I will compromise here, perhaps making the running plate 1mm too wide to keep the proportions reasonable and allow me to keep the Hornby cab's side sheets as well.

Edited by Barclay
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The Branchlines chassis kit is in good strong Nickel Silver and went together very easily, though I didn't use the spacers as intended. It was necessary to move the rear spacer to give room for a gearbox, but that worked out well because I was able to use the back of it to represent the firebox/ashpan. The front one had to be reversed too so it didn't foul the horn blocks on the front axle. This shows the horn blocks being set up in the chassis with jig axles.

 

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There are 2 sets of spacers in the kit - 00/EM and P4. As you might expect the 00/EM ones are far too narrow for EM, especially for an 0-4-0 which needs no sideplay, so I tried the P4 ones. I did tickle them slightly with a file to remove etching cusp but only a little and they were fine - EM back to back is 16.5mm.

 

attachicon.gifWP_20180722_16_34_48_Pro.jpg

 

Then a length of brass rod was fitted in a handy hole in the front spacer to form the compensating beam:

 

attachicon.gifWP_20180728_15_24_56_Pro.jpg

 

I've just compared the tank to the drawing and, yes, that's too wide as well as too long, by a full 2mm. I don't think I'm brave enough to cut it down the middle as well as into 3 pieces lengthways, so I think I will compromise here, perhaps making the running plate 1mm too wide to keep the proportions reasonable and allow me to keep the Hornby cab's side sheets as well.

The chassis is typical High Level, Lovely!!!

I can't fault you for not wanting to start really cutting!

There comes a time where you draw the line!!

After your request, I had another look at the Shay!!!

i'm going to totally disassemble the beast and maybe sleeve some stuff!!!

Oh, the joy of being an idiot and wanting something that is daft!!!!

                                                                C.

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  • 2 weeks later...

You know that old joke - Man asks a local for directions and he says "Well I wouldn't start from here"

 

I'm beginning to think that probably applies to this loco. I've ended up with just a tank and smokebox and I'm pretty sure it would have been easier to scratchbuild them from brass. The point of no return happened here:

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I wanted to keep the cab sides as the Hornby content of the model is dwindling fast, but when compared to the drawing the tank appeared to be too tall (as well as too long and too wide). In fact the tank height is about right but Hornby have pitched it a couple of mm too high against the cab and smokebox, so the cab sides have come off and may end up being replaced. Anyway, tank shortened by 8mm, and smokebox by about 2mm. Cut and now shut:

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The motor chosen is a Mitsumi M15N - batch of 5 from Hong Kong for 65p each. It does run very smoothly, albeit a little hot at the moment. Acquisition of the gearbox came about after a chat to Paul Tasker of Prickly Pear Models at an exhibition in the spring. He etched a gearbox initially for himself rather than for sale but kindly let me have one to play with. It takes Ultrascale 2 stage 80:1 gears. 

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It's gone together very well and after running in with some Brasso it runs very smoothly. I have deviated from Paul's instructions in that the top half of the gearbox has been set up so it just 'clips' over the protruding 1/8" bearings on the bottom part, or cradle. This should mean that if the motor has to be replaced I should be able to unclip the whole top half of the gearbox.

 

 

The Mitsumi motor appears to need bolts about 1.5mm for fixing but doesn't come with any (what do you expect for 65p?) Lacking any of these at the moment I have forced in a section of 8BA studding and used a nut to hold it together. Surprisingly, although horribly crude it works well. Next step was to produce a brass running plate/valance/buffer beam assembly and make sure everything fitted.

 

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The buffers are some old Slaters GWR Armstrong ones I picked up secondhand - they look about right compared to the photo's in the book. next step will be to start the re-construction.

 

 

Edited by Barclay
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I think they are 1.5mm, but I couldn't get hold of any. Somewhere between 8BA and 10BA anyway - 8 jams in the thread, and therefore kind of works, and 10 just grips but is too loose. Much bigger and easier to get to grips with than Mashima fixing screws.

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They are good motors, slow revving and very quiet. I have built three locos with them but have never bothered to screw them to the gearboxes as they end up on a weird angle as yours appears to have done. I just solder them on. Just one one side is enough and that allows a simple touch of the iron to remove them if needs be.

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Interesting - soldered the gearbox direct to the motor casing? Any special solder or flux for that? Presumably a quick dab with a pretty powerful iron so nothing inside it got hot?

Just 154 degree solder with Carrs liquid flux. The stuff that looks like water. Ordinary iron. Not sure of wattage but not large.

Edited by Ruston
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  • 3 weeks later...

Wheeling up should have been quite straightforward, but it's been two steps forward and three back recently. All seemed well until I Loctited the final drive gear onto the axle and then the gearbox developed a propensity to jam - a lot.

 

I couldn't get to the bottom of this so the wheels had to come off and the axle was drifted out of the gear while heat was applied with the soldering iron. Scary stuff but it did come to bits OK. After much fiddling I felt the gear mesh was a little loose, which was causing the teeth to climb up each other and jam. I took it to bits and tightened up the mesh a touch, then ran it in with Brasso again, took the plunge, re-wheeled it and loctited the gear back into place. All good so the pick ups were made and fitted. It's still a little hesitant on occasion, but I'm sure running in will resolve it. Some loco's work beautifully right from the start and others need some persuasion - this one is clearly in the 2nd category...

 

Perhaps more exciting - the works plates have arrived from Narrow Planet, and even better than that, they have custom etched a set of 1850's - era Neilson plates for the box tank I intend to build one day, and they look great:

 

 

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Edited by Barclay
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  • 2 weeks later...

Not wanting to go any further with the chassis until I'm sure it's going to behave itself, I've been concentrating on the body, and now got it to a more or less complete state.

 

The firebox and parts of the cab including roof, supports, and bunkers are brass but I have tried to re-use as much of the Hornby loco as possible, so the cab side sheets are cut from the originals, with beading added, the firebox back plate was cut down and put back together somewhat shorter, and the cab back was cut from the Hornby footplate casting, with the cast lamps removed. The whistle has also been re-used and the crew will be too. The reversing lever is from a Judith Edge etching. The chimney is a turned brass one I got at an exhibition some years ago in case it came in handy. The cab front has no spectacles although the coal board loco's did have small ones. I have taken this example from the drawings of the North British examples, hoping that the NCB added theirs at a later date. In any case I think that variations abounded with these loco's. I have also not added the below footplate boxes (toolboxes?) that are very visible on the NCB loco's, because I think it looks better without. Similarly, following rule 1 (it's my trainset, etc etc) I have left the cab as it would have been when new, without any of the 'after market' weather proofing that it would almost certainly have gained by the date of my layout (1947).

 

In the raw, it shows it's origins only too well, but I think a coat of paint can, just sometimes, hide a multitude of sins...

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Edited by Barclay
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Margate's role in this model is pretty limited at this stage, isn't it? I've always hoped that someone would have a go at one of these and do it properly: the hard yards are worth it, and the mongrel origins are totally obscured under the primer so who cares? Top work!

 

Adam

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Wasn't it J N Maskelyne in the old Model Railway News that said -" a coat of paint hides a multitide of tins" - back in the day when tinplate from cans etc. was frequently used for constructing loco bodies.

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I knew the chassis was fundamentally OK but the hesitance and jerkiness took some eradication. I was sure it was a pick up issue so just kept adjusting the pick ups and polishing the backs of the wheels and finally it went away and I was able to see the loco shuffling up and down the layout at a suitably sedate pace.

 

the cylinders are designed to bolt to the frames so their position depends on the gauge chosen, and, using the P4 spacers I found they stuck out way too far so it was necessary to cut them down at the back before fitting. I could have used that space however because there is very little clearance for crossheads etc in EM gauge, and I ended up attaching the connecting rod to the front of the small end instead of the back. It won't show when weathered..... 

 

Also I modified the Branchlines piston rod/small end casting to make a more reliable sliding fit on the single slidebar:

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My last three loco's have been Great Western green but I had used up the pot and was planning to use some Southern Malachite green I've had for ages when I suddenly discovered a Railmatch spray can of GWR green, unused. No recollection of buying it and I'm not a GWR modeller but it saved firing up the airbrush, which isn't much cop anyway. Now I need to be patient for at least a week before I add the black, red, etc. and then at least another week before weathering it and adding the crew, works plates, and number plates.

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Overall this has been a really quick build by my standards so perhaps there is some merit in using the Hornby model as the basis after all.

 

 

Edited by Barclay
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Impatience reared its head so I had applied white undercoat on the buffer beams by Tuesday, brush painted the black and red parts on Thursday to end up at this stage:

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The loco was weathered yesterday evening. I had a pretty torrid time of this and kept making a mess of it but in the end arrived at roughly what I was after, which was the look of a hard worked loco which is kept reasonably clean. The Narrow Planet works plates were added together with number plates from A1, which I have a selection of. No.7 makes it the oldest loco in the fleet - (For now!)

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So in the end the Hornby content amounted to tank and smokebox (both shortened); lower cab sides and rear, firebox backplate (shortened), whistle, safety valves, and crew! The crew have swapped roles, with the fireman standing up, and the Hornby driver cut off of his seat and lounging on the bunker.

 

So is it worth using the Hornby model as a basis ? On balance probably yes, but in my case it was also a chance to bring a much loved loco back into use in a different form.

 

Any lessons learned? The rear buffer beams shouldn't have the corners cut out - I think the front only had it to allow access to the cylinders. Also if you are building a new running plate as I did you will have to chock it off the frames with 15 thou to get the ride height right, as the frames are designed for the hefty Hornby footplate casting.

 

Finally I have just returned from Scaleforum and I've picked up a small flywheel which I'm going to try to squeeze on, as I do like a flywheel!

Edited by Barclay
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That is amazing. If you'd have showed that without showing the build I would never have thought that it started out as the old Hornby Smokey Joe. I think I'm going to be on the lookout for a bodyshell for one of these now.

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