White Hill Mine Area

[5050]

A quick post to show the end 'liners' fiited complete with pattern-makers dowels.  I have found that the dowels can't just be screwed in place without some care being taken.  Many of the 'pairs' that I have are not fully concentric and the male and female halves need to be rotated around each other to ensure that they line up.  I have then marked the edges with a file in one or two places to ensure that the correct halves are used together and that they are fitted in the same alignment.

 

 

I have also found another photo of 'Olwen' in British Railway Journal No. 51 Spring 1994 in an article by Cyril Goulding. It shows 'Olwen' on the line to the 'bins' near the office building, it is dated Sept '58 and she still has the two sets of buffers fitted.  I've also checked my IRS North Wales handbook and the loco is listed as an RH. Silly me....................

 

I'm now on with the legs which should be relatively easy but - I marked out a strip of ply to cut into 4 equal length pieces for cross members and ended up with 2 the correct length and 2 the wrong length. HOW!!!  Measure twice and cut once.  So I tell everyone else.............

 

Very silly me........................

 

Thanks for all the 'Likes' etc., very gratifying.

Edited August 12, 2018 by 5050

[5050]

Something else I've just found -

 

 

Some interesting views of the loco siding and the wagons and a nice one of 'Olwen' exactly in the same place as Cyril's shot.

 

Has anyone ever seen a photo of Berwig Halt?  The end of the short lived passenger workings, about half a mile short of the lime works.  I could try and introduce a small station for auto-train working, based on Berwig if I can find a photo.

 

Posting on here as my drill's battery has decided to go flat!

Edited August 10, 2018 by 5050

[Gordon A]

Can any one identify the hopper wagons in the film please?

 

Thanks

 

Gordon A

[PGH]

 

One item probably not too evident in the rough track plan in Post #17 is the rather crudely drawn signal on the extreme left, and maybe a feature worth incorporating in the layout ?

 

 

 

Its shown here in a blow up from a larger view.  Presumably of GWR origin it was probably used to warn the quarry loco driver when the exchange sidings were occupied by a main line train.  The short black post this side of the signal may carry one of the pulleys on the wire connecting the signal to the exchange sidings.

[Nearholmer]

This looks really interesting/atmospheric.

 

I visited the place years ago while making an exploration of abandoned railways and other bits of weed-grown industrial archaeology with the aid of my old series one land rover and a tent. Uncomfortable, damp, and b....y excellent fun!

[Adam]

Can any one identify the hopper wagons in the film please?

 

Thanks

 

Gordon A

Yes - they're clearly lettered for Iron Ore, and obviously of welded construction which makes them a BR build and though one or two appearing in the film/pictures are obviously fitted, most aren't which makes them most likely to be dia. 1/163: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brironorehopper (the fitted ones are probably 1/166, but I couldn't make out the brakegear): https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brironorehopperrb

 

Adam

Edited August 12, 2018 by Adam

[5050]

 

Minera Track Plan (Part) 2.jpg

 

One item probably not too evident in the rough track plan in Post #17 is the rather crudely drawn signal on the extreme left, and maybe a feature worth incorporating in the layout ?

 

 

2635B Minera Signal.jpg

 

Its shown here in a blow up from a larger view.  Presumably of GWR origin it was probably used to warn the quarry loco driver when the exchange sidings were occupied by a main line train.  The short black post this side of the signal may carry one of the pulleys on the wire connecting the signal to the exchange sidings.

 

Well, I've not seen THAT before!  I had no idea the line was signalled in any way, especially the quarry lines.  I'm not sure if there were any signals after Coedpoeth as the line was most likely one engine in steam (even if some trains were double headed!).  I wonder where the signal was operated from as I don't think there was a box at any time and I can't see a ground frame in any photos.  However, I can't imagine that ALL the points were operated by local levers and when the excursion passenger train went there I imagine all the points were individually padlocked or something similar.

 

I spent the night once as a lad in the building in the background with a group of mates, probably around 1960.  Here are the same buildings still there in '72 but they've gone now.

 

 

This was what was inside -

 

 

VERY bad lighting and photo but it looks like the chassis of a NG Simplex or similar.

 

Regarding wagons, I've found a couple of photos taken in '66 in a book on the Minera Mines and Quarries (very much on the geology and early history of the lead mines) which shows a pannier bringing in a train of empty large 'double door' minerals (24t?) and the train has gone straight into the 'kiln' side of the loop rather than staying in the exchange sidings..  Makes sense if by that time they were using the 'Bins' for loading in the old Lester's area.

Edited August 12, 2018 by 5050

[Ruston]

It's not a Simplex, it's a Lister Railtruck. The 2-cylinder V-twin variety, I'd say, owing to the extra ballast weights on the end.

[PGH]

It would be the remains of the 2ft. gauge Lister 4wPM mentioned in the IRS North Wales Handbook, supplied new here in 1938, disused by 4/1953; stored in smithy to 1963 at least; disposal unknown.

 

The 2ft gauge system was replaced by road transport when Lythgoe Bros took over in 1954, but I did find an unusual 2ft gauge wagon.  All steel construction with a very short wheelbase and ends sloped at 45 degrees.  I would imagine it was used under the kilns to bring the lime out and then tip it into standard gauge wagons below by up-ending it.  May be of interest if you are including models of the kilns.  No photos but I do have a drawing of it.

[LBRJ]

This really does look most interesting, I have jsut been reading the thread to catchup!

 

I saw the words Lower Pandy and that took me back to S4 N at Wakefield  a long few years ago! 

Is there any pictures of the layout floating about on tihs internet thing by any chance?

[Gordon A]

Yes - they're clearly lettered for Iron Ore, and obviously of welded construction which makes them a BR build and though one or two appearing in the film/pictures are obviously fitted, most aren't which makes them most likely to be dia. 1/163: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brironorehopper (the fitted ones are probably 1/166, but I couldn't make out the brakegear): https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brironorehopperrb

 

Adam

 

Thanks Adam.

[5050]

It would be the remains of the 2ft. gauge Lister 4wPM mentioned in the IRS North Wales Handbook, supplied new here in 1938, disused by 4/1953; stored in smithy to 1963 at least; disposal unknown.

 

The 2ft gauge system was replaced by road transport when Lythgoe Bros took over in 1954, but I did find an unusual 2ft gauge wagon.  All steel construction with a very short wheelbase and ends sloped at 45 degrees.  I would imagine it was used under the kilns to bring the lime out and then tip it into standard gauge wagons below by up-ending it.  May be of interest if you are including models of the kilns.  No photos but I do have a drawing of it.

Thanks for this.  Ruston came round yesterday and we were looking through the IRS handbook and found this same info. before I read your post.  Great minds etc.!  A view of the wagon drawing would be good, thanks.  When did you visit Minera to take your photos?

 

Here is a photo taken on the kiln showing one of the chutes that your wagon possibly used for tipping.  It was all a bit 'rickety' and very none 'H&S'!  The standard gauge ran down below to the right and the loco shed is in the distance.

 

 

This really does look most interesting, I have jsut been reading the thread to catchup!

 

I saw the words Lower Pandy and that took me back to S4 N at Wakefield  a long few years ago! 

Is there any pictures of the layout floating about on tihs internet thing by any chance?

Certainly was a 'long' few years ago! Well over 20 at the least.  Was it completed or still in its embryo stage?  I have photos of both which I can post but here is one for starters which is by Tony Wright for BRM.

 

 

EDIT - I've started a new thread on 'Lower Pandy' to avoid clogging this one.

Edited August 14, 2018 by 5050

[5050]

Board 'skeletons' are now able to be erected on the legs I've made (but not yet fully finished as the adjustable feet still need to be fitted).  Board top height will be around 40"/42" which is quite high - but with a back like mine any little helps!  Currently I've braced the end boards with a couple of props G-Clamped in place but I may well make some dedicated legs to fit at the ends to prevent 'sag' which could be a problem with 'Lower Pandy'.  Talking of which, the legs are made from the long uprights used on LP to support the lighting.  Cut in half they are exactly the right length.  I think they are Pitch Pine approx 3 x 2" and really hard and strong.

 

Here is a full view -

 

 

And some detail of the leg attachment which will become clearer (hopefully!) when I make and fit the feet and photo them in detail.

 

 

The 15mm square cross pieces are next and I've found some long lengths of 9mm ply which I may use as the surface.  This should be lighter and stronger than the MDF I was originally considering using.  I'm also going to try and vary the levels a bit for more interest - and make the loop stop-block a necessity!

 

 

[PGH]

Thanks for this.  Ruston came round yesterday and we were looking through the IRS handbook and found this same info. before I read your post.  Great minds etc.!  A view of the wagon drawing would be good, thanks.  When did you visit Minera to take your photos?

 

I visited the quarry only twice, in January and June of 1964.  I'll send the wagon drawing attached to a PM when its tidied up as it is narrow gauge.  The following may be of interest, if not or if considered not relevant it can be deleted (here we go again !!!!)

 

I don't know when operation of the kilns and lime burning ceased at Minera.  The Disused Stations website gives a closure date for the works of 1933, but quarrying certainly continued after that date as locos were supplied new for the 2ft. gauge system in 1938, 1940 and 1945.  Maybe lime burning ceased in 1933 ?  After Lythgoes took over only crushed and granulated limestone was produced.

 

The quarry was the subject of an article in The Quarry Managers Journal for May 1965, mainly covering the actual working of the quarry, but the following extracts may be of interest

 

"The Adam Lythgoe organization was founded in 1913 by the late Mr Adam Lythgoe, father of the present chairman.  Until 1946, it was basically a local, but vigorous, agricultural merchanting business selling lime, manures and farm pro­duce in the south Lancashire and Cheshire areas.  At the end of the last war, the advent of mechanical contract lime-spreading, combined with the Government lime subsidy, made it possible for the company to expand rapidly, and its trading area now extends from Hereford to Aberdeen.

 

To ensure adequate supplies of ground limestone, the company acquired five limestone quarries in various parts of northern England, including the Minera Lime Works.  The five limestone quarries were originally acquired to supply agricultural limestone to the firm's retail organization, but the industrial potential was quickly realized and in 1957 it was decided to enter this market.  Early results were so promising that a steady expansion and development over the years has resulted in the industrial division becoming the major force in the organization.

 

The history of quarrying at Minera extends back at least 200 years, and there is reason to believe that this may be a con­servative estimate, for it is known that the Roman occupation forces mined lead extensively in the area.  Existing records show that quarrying operations were being pursued in the early years of the 19th century and lime kilns bearing the date 1841 still remain reasonably intact on the site.

 

The Minera Lime Company began operations under this title in 1852 and Lester's Lime Works in 1857.  These two companies worked in opposition until 1899 and then as a joint venture until 1954.  Production from the area reached a peak in 1901 when 125,000 tons of limestone were quarried and it is recorded that a total of 8 million tons were produced between 1852 and 1954.

 

The Minera Lime Works were purchased by Adam Lythgoe Ltd in December 1954.  A plant was installed to produce agricultural ground limestone and a quarrymaster (this would be the M.F.Freeman listed in the IRS N.Wales Handbook) appointed responsible for the quarrying side of the operations; the com­pany was concerned directly only with the marketing of the final product. 

 

The first steps towards increased output at Minera were taken in 1961.  The practice of employing an independent quarry-master for the stone-getting operations was abandoned and staff and labour were employed direct.  One of the first results of an extensive market research programme imple­mented during 1960 was a contract with the John Summers steelworks at Shotton, for the supply of crushed limestone suitable for their sintering furnaces.

 

The output of this quarry in 1955 was about 25,000 tons, almost all of which was sold as agricultural ground limestone; the production figures for 1964 were in the region of 300,000 tons of which 75-80 % was sold to engineer­ing and industrial consumers.

 

The rail-loading facilities at Minera comprise a set of bunkers, under which trucks may be shunted, and a tipping point where dumpers can discharge stone direct into empty rail trucks.  At present the bunkers (shown in my photo of the Ruston loco) are used for storing and loading sinter stone for the Shotton Steelworks.  The Sevenoaks roadstone (the quarry currently had a contract to provide 120,000 tons of  -3" stone for the Sevenoaks Bypass) is loaded at a point nearer to the quarry face from a temporary staging arranged so that dum­pers can back into a position immediately over the track.  This section of the line is to be relaid and more permanent dumping facilities will be installed.  A small diesel locomotive is used for shunting and marshalling wagons which, when ready for despatch, are collected by a British Rail locomotive for making up trains in the Wrexham marshalling yard."

 

Industrial customers mentioned in addition to Shotton Steelworks included glass bottle manufacturers, other steelworks, concrete brick manufacturers, tar distillers and copper smelters.  These would have involved different length supply contracts and possibly different types of wagon depending on the size of stone and unloading facilities at the destination.  For example the Sevenoaks stone was carried in double door mineral wagons and unloaded by crane grab at a goods yard close to the roadworks.

Edited August 15, 2018 by PGH

[5050]

Really interesting Phil, thanks.  I suppose the 'other' loading point 'nearer the quarry' might well be the one I photographed but it was there well before '64 (at least '59/'60'ish) and, AFAIK, the 'bins' one was not (only post-'64?).  The 'double door mineral wagons' explains the ones I mentioned, photographed in '66.  I really can't remember what wagons were used when I went there 'as a lad' but they could have been either 'ordinary' minerals or the smaller hoppers.

 

As my layout is really only going to be based on Minera then I reserve the right to run whatever vaguely suitable wagons I fancy.  The history of the White Hill Mining Area is still to be written and I am looking for a suitably learned academic to undertake the research.

 

BTW, the drawing of the tipper wagon has arrived, many thanks.  I haven't looked at it in detail yet!

[Andrew Young]

Finding this thread to be very educational and look forward to the layout developing.

 

Regarding Olwyn, found this photo on Flickr, would make for a good weathering project:

https://flic.kr/p/TYjNjW

 

In an earlier post (can’t find it now) you mentioned a short lived auto service and thoughts that you might recreate that if you could find some photos. There are plenty of examples elsewhere where the GWR instigated an auto passenger service and provided a wooden platform topped with a pagoda building. Something like that would probably be appropriate if you went down that route.

 

Regarding wagons, Accurascale have brought out the 24.5T hoppers and say on their website that they were used for limestone later on. Could some of those be suitable for your layout?

 

For lime traffic, the smaller iron ore wagons (the ones that are more the proportions of a 16T Mineral) with sheeted loads were used in the Oswestry area and could be a useful addition if you were to include a working lime kiln.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[5050]

Finding this thread to be very educational and look forward to the layout developing.

 

Regarding Olwyn, found this photo on Flickr, would make for a good weathering project:

https://flic.kr/p/TYjNjW

 

In an earlier post (can’t find it now) you mentioned a short lived auto service and thoughts that you might recreate that if you could find some photos. There are plenty of examples elsewhere where the GWR instigated an auto passenger service and provided a wooden platform topped with a pagoda building. Something like that would probably be appropriate if you went down that route.

 

Regarding wagons, Accurascale have brought out the 24.5T hoppers and say on their website that they were used for limestone later on. Could some of those be suitable for your layout?

 

For lime traffic, the smaller iron ore wagons (the ones that are more the proportions of a 16T Mineral) with sheeted loads were used in the Oswestry area and could be a useful addition if you were to include a working lime kiln.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

Thanks, not seen that image before.  Pity he's spelled the name wrong, it's 'OlwEn', no idea who it was named after.  I'm going to be very cautious about weathering my locos to suit a limestone area.  If there is any weathering currently then it tends to be more black, grimy and rusty!

 

I had a small halt on 'Lower Pandy' with a sleeper built platform and a corrugated GWR hut. It looked fine for the location so, if I do place a platform here, then it may use the same hut!

 

The smaller hoppers you mention, are you referring to the ones like the Mainline/Bachmann ones?  I've shortened some to fit the correct length 9' wheelbase as demonstrated by Ruston some time ago.  The larger Accurascale ones may be a bit to modern?

 

EDIT - acording to the website, built between 1954 and 1965 so not to old - but probably not correct either?

Edited August 16, 2018 by 5050

[Andrew Young]

Yes, amazing how white lime works locos became! There’s a great photo on Gordon Edgar’s Flickr page of a Fowler diesel in a similar state.

 

I’ve not seen enough of Lower Pandy to tell (must find a copy of the BRM it was in) but that sounds a good idea.

 

Having done some research, wagons I was thinking of are the 27T tipplers, as shown in use on this page: http://www.oswestry-borderland-heritage.co.uk/?page=137

 

Have seen other photos of them running with tarpaulin covers, presumably when loaded.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[PGH]

 

9610 on a loaded train from Minera near Caello Brickworks in March 1966.  The load appears to be fine material, probably sintering limestone headed for Shotton Steelworks.  This would be graded smaller than 1/8" size but passing over a 60 mesh (approx. 0.01"), so only the finest dust excluded but note that the wagons are not sheeted.

 

Most of the wagons are lettered for Iron Ore traffic.

[5050]

Good photo. thanks.  Does anyone produce a kit for this hopper?

[Adam]

Good photo. thanks. Does anyone produce a kit for this hopper?

Yes. 51L via Wizard Models. They do both the fitted (my take on that is on my workbench thread: hmm) and the unfitted (probably a better kit which I'll try, someday).

 

Adam

[5050]

Yes. 51L via Wizard Models. They do both the fitted (my take on that is on my workbench thread: hmm) and the unfitted (probably a better kit which I'll try, someday).

 

Adam

Thanks, I shall have to have words with Andrew!

[5050]

Legs now have the adjustable feet fitted.  The main board legs have 3 large feet (acquired when employed in the office furniture industry) in a triangular formation so that they will stand on their own to ease the erection of the layout.  The subsidiary end board legs have 2 smaller feet (actually flat head allen key bolts) screwed into 6mm threaded bushes. The end of one can just be seen poking through the end of the leg 'foot'. The layout as a whole will stand quite level, even on the garage floor which isn't all that flat, and the addition of a brace between a 'main' leg and an end board results in very good rigidity.

 

 

I still haven't decided on a track plan.  I'm coming to the conclusion that the layout isn't long enough to get in all the features of Minera I would like so I'm going to have to reduce my expectations or consider something different - but still with the 'flavour' of Minera incorporating several of the buildings etc.

[Gordon A]

Keep at it.

 

Gordon A

[Osgood]

A view of OLWEN:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Larger-Negative-Industrial-Steam-loco-Minerva-Lime-Co-Ltd-Olwen-Wrexham-1959-/372413050457?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

Edited August 25, 2018 by Osgood