GWR goods stock livery

[south_tyne]

Hi all,

 

Just a question to the experts from a naive novice...

 

Was the standard GWR grey used for the majority of wagon stock from the grouping through to nationalisation? Was there any stepped change over the timeframe or could stock in this livery be fitting for the '30s through to 1948?

 

Appreciate this is a rather simplistic question and sorry if it is appears silly. Reason for asking is that I have acquired some GWR wagons in what I take to be a standard grey livery, and which were utilised on a 1930s era layout, but would prefer a post-WW2 setting for any project I undertake.

 

Thank you in advance for any input and apologies again for asking such a basic question.

 

ST

[jwealleans]

I know nothing about the GWR either, so when I have this sort of question I usually start by looking here. You can get at least an idea of an answer for most questions from this site.

[richbrummitt]

Given that there was a war on from not long after the livery change you are probably safe. The link in the previous post is superb for GWR information

[asmay2002]

The grey stayed the same.  The lettering changed size and layout.

[NCB]

Modern thinking is that GWR freight stock was usually red pre-1900, but sometime around that time it changed to grey, a sort of darkish leaden grey. It stayed like that until nationalisation.

 

The main noticeable difference is that whereas in the early part of grouping wagons had 16" G W letters on the sides, around 1937 much smaller letters and other designations appeared in a group in the bottom left hand corner. However, wagons took a long time to repaint, so you could find both styles post war. Roofs changed from white to grey around 1939, but white ended up pretty grubby anyway.

 

In summary, in practice mid 1930s wagons should be OK for post war.

 

Nigel

Edited August 17, 2018 by NCB

[south_tyne]

I know nothing about the GWR either, so when I have this sort of question I usually start by looking here. You can get at least an idea of an answer for most questions from this site.

Cheers, that looks like a great resource. I'll have an in depth look to try and increase my understanding (from nothing!! )

[south_tyne]

Given that there was a war on from not long after the livery change you are probably safe. The link in the previous post is superb for GWR information

Thanks, it does look good. Did the GWR resort to painting most ordinary locos in plain black during the war?

The grey stayed the same. The lettering changed size and layout.

Cheers that's useful!

[south_tyne]

Modern thinking is that GWR freight stock was usually red pre-1900, but sometime around that time it changed to grey, a sort of darkish leaden grey. It stayed like that until nationalisation.

 

The main noticeable difference is that whereas in the early part of grouping wagons had 16" G W letters on the sides, around 1937 much smaller letters and other designations appeared in a group in the bottom left hand corner. However, wagons took a long time to repaint, so you could find both styles post war. Roofs changed from white to grey around 1939, but white ended up pretty grubby anyway.

 

In summary, in practice mid 1930s wagons should be OK for post war.

 

Nigel

Nigel,

 

Thanks that's great and very interesting. Thank you for sharig and again apologies for asking such basic questions. As you say, any new liveries would take a long time to introduce, presumably with wagons at the bottom of the list after locos and the coaching stock. The roof colouringis an interesting fact and something I will have to bear in mind.

 

David

Edited August 18, 2018 by south_tyne

[bécasse]

As you say, any new liveries would take a long time to introduce, presumably with wagons at the bottom of the list after locos and the coaching stock.

 

No! There were separate painting facilities for locomotives, coaching stock and wagons and, once a decision on a livery change had been made, it would be implemented quickly. Paint, transfers, etc, no longer required wouldn't generally be wasted, but this would have been of zero impact for wagons where the same paint was used after the livery change and the smaller lettering would have been quicker (and therefore cheaper) to apply.

The spread of the new livery within the total fleet would have been determined by the usual painting cycles, which probably would have been longer for wagons than for (at least passenger) locos and front-line coaching stock - although, ironically, there is circumstantial evidence to suggest that the roofs of vans were repainted quite frequently to help keep the canvas covering watertight.

[NCB]

No! There were separate painting facilities for locomotives, coaching stock and wagons and, once a decision on a livery change had been made, it would be implemented quickly. Paint, transfers, etc, no longer required wouldn't generally be wasted, but this would have been of zero impact for wagons where the same paint was used after the livery change and the smaller lettering would have been quicker (and therefore cheaper) to apply.

The spread of the new livery within the total fleet would have been determined by the usual painting cycles, which probably would have been longer for wagons than for (at least passenger) locos and front-line coaching stock - although, ironically, there is circumstantial evidence to suggest that the roofs of vans were repainted quite frequently to help keep the canvas covering watertight.

 

It would only be implemented quickly on new stock, where the change would be made more or less as soon as the decision was made. On existing stock it would wait until the item in question was due through the paint shops, which could be a long time in the case of wagons.

[south_tyne]

Thanks to both becasse and NCB for your replies. It's interesting that the repainting of goods stock was proritised so quickly, naively I thought it would be low down the list of priorities given the cost. Similarly on nationalisation, it seems the repainting of wagons happened fairly quickly but to a lay person such as myself I wonder why they even bothered!

[corneliuslundie]

You are probably talking about a six to eight year cycle for repainting of goods stock, and with the war intervening this would have been lengthened. but as was stated the style for new stock would be implemented immediately the stock was first painted. So some stock built or repainted just before the change in lettering style would not have been due for another repaint until after the war had started, when repainting of everything slowed down.

BR had a different issue as once the branding was changed from the company to BR the numbering had to be sorted out, even if it only meant a prefix letter.

For locomotives, according to Great Western Way (HMRS, still in print), "all painting after early 1942 was in unlined black except for castles and kings which retained the green but without lining". But there were numerous smaller GWR locos which carried GWR livery into the 1950s, never having been due for repainting (or at least reached the top of the queue) during the war. A return to pre-war styles began in 1945 but was slow being implemented.

Loco lettering changed after the war.

Jonathan

[Il Grifone]

I can remember seeing a goods van still marked with 16" 'G W' in the late fifties. It was in the distance from a moving train, so not too clear on details. Some of the 97xx panniers were still marked with 'G W R' at the same time. One still had the 'shirt button'.

 

Basically wagon livery was all over grey from around the turn of the century, (before that it was red. but informatiom is scarce and conflicting even as to the date of the changeover - it is likely that G.J. Churcward had something to do with it IMHO, but this helps little with dating). From 1904, lettering was 25" high (reduced in size if necessary for space constraits). This is changed in size to 16" in 1920 and in 1937 to the small lettering, which was further reduced during the war. As previously noted, wagon repainting was not a high priority and earlier styles lingered for several/many years.

[NCB]

I can remember seeing a goods van still marked with 16" 'G W' in the late fifties. It was in the distance from a moving train, so not too clear on details. Some of the 97xx panniers were still marked with 'G W R' at the same time. One still had the 'shirt button'.

 

Basically wagon livery was all over grey from around the turn of the century, (before that it was red. but informatiom is scarce and conflicting even as to the date of the changeover - it is likely that G.J. Churcward had something to do with it IMHO, but this helps little with dating). From 1904, lettering was 25" high (reduced in size if necessary for space constraits). This is changed in size to 16" in 1920 and in 1937 to the small lettering, which was further reduced during the war. As previously noted, wagon repainting was not a high priority and earlier styles lingered for several/many years.

 

I've seen one pic of a shirt button loco in 1958. I seem to remember a pic of one in the mid 1950s with Great Western on it; it was either Aberystwyth based or Old Oak Common. Aberstwyth definitely had one with either that or the shirt button; the story was that they were determined to never let it near Swindon, and did any work necessary on shed.

[M.I.B]

 

For locomotives, according to Great Western Way (HMRS, still in print), "all painting after early 1942 was in unlined black except for castles and kings which retained the green but without lining". 

 

All Kings remained green in some form or other - two Castles were repainted black.  St Mawes and one other - No doubt Drew can assist with the other name.  He'll be around in a minute after his "Castle radar" goes off

[M.I.B]

From the Black Dean Goods Thread:

 

Sorry, got distracted! No idea how long they stayed black but the engines concerned were No. 5001 Llandovery Castle and No. 5018 St Mawes Castle. I don't see it as being unreasonable that the repaint didn't happen until 1947 even if it didn't. I want to see you model a black Castle!

Seriously though, looking at repair histories, No. 5001 was in and out of Swindon post hostilities (bit of a lemon at that time) so I wouldn't be surprised if it got a repaint pretty swiftly. No. 5018 on the other hand had an intermediate overhaul (repainting not usually done at this time although a black Castle may have been too much to ignore!) in 5/46 and a general overhaul in 2/48 so she is your safest bet! Even if it only lasted until that intermediate repair its got to be close enough surely?!

All the best,

Castle 

[Steamport Southport]

Look at photographs of goods trains and yards from the early 1950s and spot how many pre nationalisation liveried wagons you can see. Not including PO wagons.

 

Exactly. Wagons went into works about every three years for axlebox/journal work. A quick dab of a paint brush to cover the previous owner's identity and Bob's your uncle.

 

Yes, one or two might have escaped. Any photographs of late survivors in the wagon books are there because they are rare.

 

 

 

It's not really relevant mentioning locomotives as they were entirely different departments. There were carriage and wagon departments repairing hundreds of thousands of wagons a year. BR built or ordered over a million brand new ones in the 1950s alone.

 

 

 

Jason

[hmrspaul]

I can remember seeing a goods van still marked with 16" 'G W' in the late fifties. It was in the distance from a moving train, so not too clear on details. Some of the 97xx panniers were still marked with 'G W R' at the same time. One still had the 'shirt button'.

 

 

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrvans/e31f1d1ac 1986!  The other side didn't show the GWR, but had the original door https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrvans/e265b909b  Interesting prototype but I doubt it moved far for many years.

 

Paul

[Mikkel]

Interesting photo! But I don't understand the basic colour? Have the letters perhaps been painted on much later for some purpose?

[petethemole]

I believe some GWR vans were painted red-brown in WW2 (can't remember the reference), but these would have had the post 1936 small lettering low down. That van doesn't have load and tare markings either.

[K14]

Interesting photo! But I don't understand the basic colour? Have the letters perhaps been painted on much later for some purpose?

 

The grey areas look like weathered timber, so I'm guessing that there's been a reaction between the bauxite & the white lead lettering that's resulted in the topcoat pulling the basecoat off.

Damp may well have been a factor too. Note that the roof is covered with green roofing felt - a sure sign that the original canvas has given up & the roof has leaked.

 

That van doesn't have load and tare markings either.

 

Odds are that the bottom planks had been replaced, maybe when the door got repanelled.

I've 'excavated' a few paint systems on stock at Didcot but never found anything on the bottom boards.

 

Pete S.

[M.I.B]

K14 beat me to this.  

 

The high lead content white probably didn't agree with the bauxite put on top of it.

 

It may have been painted over with something more "tolerant" on the other side before it was painted in bauxite.

 

And the lower planks would rot first, taking the later small low lettering with them.

 

 

A "survivor" like this would not have been on regular traffic duties, and hence probably moved very little - sun and weather hitting the same sides would have weathered it differently too.