Dock Locos

[sb67]

I'm building a dock/quayside layout and I've been inspired by Ipswich wharves, Mistley Maltings and the London PLA. My question is what were the largest locos that would have worked docksides? I was thinking that there probably wouldn't be anything bigger than an 08 Diesel, I'm looking for an excuse to run something bigger ;-) 

Thanks.

Steve.

[Steamport Southport]

It possibly depends on what docks.

 

I remember Class 47s working into Birkenhead Docks and there was a railtour that used the green Class 40.

 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/2532306@N24/pool/feversham

 

 

Class 24s and 25s as well.

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p916501830/h7AC1B668#h7ac1b668

 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 19, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[sb67]

Thanks Jason, some great photos there. I was thinking more about loco's using the lines right along the docksides as in this picture of Ipswich.

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

They did.

 

Just that near the end most of the dockside buildings had been demolished and it was more like a desolate wasteland.

 

Plenty on the other side of the river in Liverpool as well. Including a mainline terminus on the docks.

 

 

 

Jason

[bike2steam]

London Docks played host to all three type 1 Bo-Bo's from the late 1950's - late 60's.

[The Johnster]

I worked Barry Dock-Didcot mgr trains of imported Polish coal in the 70s, picking them up directly from the wharf where they had been loaded from the ship with grab buckets (what a mess, a good bit of the coal must have gone in the dock) with a class 47.

 

It depends on the docks, and it depends on the traffic.  Your proposed East Anglian scenario is unlikely to include a passenger terminal, with the customs sheds and so on, but the largest loco is whatever you want the largest loco to be.  08s were the most common, with smaller locos used where curvature was too much for even an 08, but, I would venture, as a general rule the more recent the model's period, the more likely you would be to see big engines all the way down to the wharfside, but the traffic frequency becomes less.

[HonestTom]

If you're going freelance, then you have a fairly free hand. The types of locomotive used varied from port to port, and even from dock to dock within the same port. For instance, the Port of London's Royal Docks were worked by rugged 0-6-0s, but their more tightly curved Millwall docks were the preserve of 0-4-0s. However, as others have noted, there were plenty of ports that allowed larger locomotives in.

 

An interesting scenario might be exchange sidings, where your dock locomotives can exchange wagons with larger main line engines. With this, the sky is the limit in terms of larger engines.

 

If passenger engines are more to your taste, you could model a passenger terminal where boat trains would meet the liners, like the ones at Southampton or Tilbury. These were built to take larger locomotives.

[peter c]

When I started with the PLA Meat Department North Side Royal Albert Dock in 1965, wagons were often moved to allow passenger trains for the Ellerman City Liners going to South Africa. The trains would have been hauled by main line diesel locos. I am sorry I don’t know what class they were.

Also we had horse drawn Whitbread beer drays delivering beer to the Ellerman ships, obviously they were more a tourist up attraction!

Most PLA locos were 060’s similar to the Golden Valley models.

hope that helps

Peter C

[sb67]

If you're going freelance, then you have a fairly free hand. The types of locomotive used varied from port to port, and even from dock to dock within the same port. For instance, the Port of London's Royal Docks were worked by rugged 0-6-0s, but their more tightly curved Millwall docks were the preserve of 0-4-0s. However, as others have noted, there were plenty of ports that allowed larger locomotives in.

 

An interesting scenario might be exchange sidings, where your dock locomotives can exchange wagons with larger main line engines. With this, the sky is the limit in terms of larger engines.

 

If passenger engines are more to your taste, you could model a passenger terminal where boat trains would meet the liners, like the ones at Southampton or Tilbury. These were built to take larger locomotives.

 

Thanks Tom, the layout's only small but with a bit of licence I might use a larger loco to bring some wagons on to the loop then let the small shunters take over. 

Steve.

[Nearholmer]

Really good photo here (scroll way down) http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page15.htm showing a type 2 on passenger train deep within quay area.

 

I’ve seen another photo, similar, which I think was taken in the London docks.

[Nearholmer]

Blow me!

 

A Peak in the docks! https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p920577291/h9CD0913

[sb67]

Really good photo here (scroll way down) http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page15.htm showing a type 2 on passenger train deep within quay area.

 

I’ve seen another photo, similar, which I think was taken in the London docks.

 

 

Blow me!

 

A Peak in the docks! https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p920577291/h9CD0913

 

They are fantastic photo's especially the type 2 it just oozes atmosphere, thanks for posting them. I havent come across that website before, I'm sure I'll lose a few hours on there!

Steve.

[brack]

There's a nice video of 70012 in Newport docks...

[Classsix T]

Thanks Tom, the layout's only small but with a bit of licence I might use a larger loco to bring some wagons on to the loop then let the small shunters take over.

Steve.

Which is what I believe happened at Ipswich. Larger locomotives had access to the Lower Yard (other side of the river to the Station) and the shunter would trip the wagons to the docks proper. Mistley worked differently with loops either side of the main running lines and AFAIK only the 08 worked the switchback incline to the docks.

Any running thread on your proposed layout BTW?

 

C6T.

[wagonman]

Dockside railways have changed dramatically in the last 50 years. The old labour intensive transfer of general cargoes between train and ship has disappeared in favour of containerisation. Nowadays everything is class 66s with a string of container flats 20 feet long. Assuming you don't have a space the size of the Albert Hall for your layout I would say avoid anything from the last half century. Basically you're looking at 4 coupled tanks or their diesel equivalent as anything else would look extremely silly in the sort of space we have available. The largest engine? perhaps a 0-6-0T, at a pinch but you'd need sufficiently large loads to justify it.

[sb67]

Which is what I believe happened at Ipswich. Larger locomotives had access to the Lower Yard (other side of the river to the Station) and the shunter would trip the wagons to the docks proper. Mistley worked differently with loops either side of the main running lines and AFAIK only the 08 worked the switchback incline to the docks.

Any running thread on your proposed layout BTW?

 

C6T.

 

Thanks C6T, there is a thread on my layout, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135217-pecketts-wharf/. It's due an update although progress has been a bit slow of late.

Steve.

[Classsix T]

Ta, I'll give it a look see Steve.

 

C6T.

[Middlesea John]

There are plenty of photos around of ex SECR "C" class 0-6-0s working in Dover docks

[Stephenwolsten]

The MDHB Riverside Branch in Liverpool ran alongside and across docks.   It had LNWR 0-8-0s, Stanier Class 5s, Specials and Class 40 diesels, amongst others.

[Nearholmer]

Middlesea John

 

Didn’t C class and, later, Cl33 only work the link-span, which was, of course, designed to cater for long vehicles in the form of sleeping cars?

 

If i’m right in this, it puts them with other ‘big’ locos working passenger trains into docks, along routes designed for that purpose.

 

Perhaps that’s the key distinctions n that the OP needs to consider in his model: to get big locos deep into dockland needs a route laid out and signalled for passenger trains, so as to get them at a platform along or inside a transit hall (big shed!) alongside a passenger ship, or onto a train ferry link-span.

 

Kevin

[Fat Controller]

Middlesea John

 

Didn’t C class and, later, Cl33 only work the link-span, which was, of course, designed to cater for long vehicles in the form of sleeping cars?

 

If i’m right in this, it puts them with other ‘big’ locos working passenger trains into docks, along routes designed for that purpose.

 

Perhaps that’s the key distinctions n that the OP needs to consider in his model: to get big locos deep into dockland needs a route laid out and signalled for passenger trains, so as to get them at a platform along or inside a transit hall (big shed!) alongside a passenger ship, or onto a train ferry link-span.

 

Kevin

The C-class's stay in Dover coincided with the old, enclosed, train-ferry dock, to the east of Dover Marine station. This had a relatively short 'link span', which didn't have much vertical movement; a reach wagon was used between the loco and the vehicles being loaded or unloaded, to avoid smoke and steam on the enclosed deck of the boat. In later years, the C-class were replaced by BR 350hp diesels.

The enclosed dock was replaced by a berth in the open harbour (thus subject to tides) in the 1980s. This had a much greater rise and fall, and it was thought that the diesel shunters might struggle with the increased gradients and heavier wagons. Thus some Class 33/2 Bo-Bos were substituted; two locos had to be used, one on each track on the link-span to avoid a turning moment from uneven loads. Eventually, reliability issues with the 33s meant a return of the 0-6-0 shunters, which remained there until the ferry stopped in late 1995.

[Broadway Clive]

In the 'Illustrated History of the railways of Hull' there's a picture of a J25 0-6-0 with tender shunting in St Andrew fish dock, and a WD 2-8-0 propelling wagons across a level crossing into nearby William Wright Dock. Another Hull book has a picture of a WD with a train coming out of nearby Albert Dock. Nowadays main line diesels access King George Dock Hull and I traveled on a rail tour that went right through the steel transit shed on the dockside there about 15 years ago. 

[sb67]

Thanks guys, I've got a lot of googling to do now but I think I can justify the occasional appearance of a bigger loco on at least part of my layout. The loco could bring the train, albeit a few wagons then uncouple and park or go offstage and let the shunter get on with things.

Steve.

Edited August 29, 2018 by sb67

[Northmoor]

Dockside railways have changed dramatically in the last 50 years. The old labour intensive transfer of general cargoes between train and ship has disappeared in favour of containerisation. Nowadays everything is class 66s with a string of container flats 20 feet long. Assuming you don't have a space the size of the Albert Hall for your layout I would say avoid anything from the last half century. Basically you're looking at 4 coupled tanks or their diesel equivalent as anything else would look extremely silly in the sort of space we have available. The largest engine? perhaps a 0-6-0T, at a pinch but you'd need sufficiently large loads to justify it.

Point taken but I would say that modelling up to mid-90s (privatisation actually) you could get away with a traditional dockside and not necessarily long trains.  Only the largest ports have become completely containerised (and entirely replaced some others, like the Port of London) but plenty of smaller ports retained rail links into the 1980s and even through the Speedlink era, although some links were only very occasionally used:   

 

Falmouth, Hayle, Par, Plymouth, Exeter, Milford Haven (I can remember air-braked vans on the quayside in 1985), Swansea, Newport, Barry, Avonmouth, Hamworthy, Newhaven, Ridham, Chatham, Purfleet, Tilbury, Sheerness, Kings Lynn, Lowestoft, Mostyn, Boston, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Ellesmere Port, Runcorn, Goole, Hull, Flixborough, Immingham, Grimsby, Barrow, Workington, Hartlepool, Sunderland, Tyne Dock, Blyth, Ayr, Greenock, Grangemouth, Leith, Burntisland, Inverkeithing, Methil, Aberdeen, Inverness.  You can tell I just scrolled through the 1988 Rail Atlas...... 

[Fat Controller]

Point taken but I would say that modelling up to mid-90s (privatisation actually) you could get away with a traditional dockside and not necessarily long trains.  Only the largest ports have become completely containerised (and entirely replaced some others, like the Port of London) but plenty of smaller ports retained rail links into the 1980s and even through the Speedlink era, although some links were only very occasionally used:   

 

Falmouth, Hayle, Par, Plymouth, Exeter, Milford Haven (I can remember air-braked vans on the quayside in 1985), Swansea, Newport, Barry, Avonmouth, Hamworthy, Newhaven, Ridham, Chatham, Purfleet, Tilbury, Sheerness, Kings Lynn, Lowestoft, Mostyn, Boston, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Ellesmere Port, Runcorn, Goole, Hull, Flixborough, Immingham, Grimsby, Barrow, Workington, Hartlepool, Sunderland, Tyne Dock, Blyth, Ayr, Greenock, Grangemouth, Leith, Burntisland, Inverkeithing, Methil, Aberdeen, Inverness.  You can tell I just scrolled through the 1988 Rail Atlas...... 

Cardiff, Seaham, Preston..(all still active, though in the second and third cases, the traffic is brought in by train for distribution locally) Recently opened is the 'Birdport' steel terminal on the East Usk branch, an interesting operation, in that there is no siding, the trains being unloaded on the branch itself, which passes through the warehouse. Southampton is still rail-served, via a branch that curves off by the Maritime Freightliner terminal.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Fat Controller