Pit props

[Martin S-C]

Hi all

 

What do people recommend for modelling pit props? How big were they? Photos seem to suggest around 6" to 9" diameter and about 6 ft to 8ft long.

 

I need to model a huge amount of these and was wondering what might be a good mass-production basis - wooden rod or thin dowel perhaps?

 

 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

Fuschia prunings or similar? Remember that props retained their bark; using dowel or similar would lose that quality.

The length of the props would vary from seam to seam, from three or four feet to twice that or more.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Several common garden plants with potential. Hebes can be good, and I was looking at a Trachelospermum only a few days ago and thinking 'useful'.

 

(Nice little sampling of general merchandise open wagons in the OP with a couple of useful well lit interiors on view.)

[Skinnylinny]

What scale are you modelling in? You might find kebab skewers (bamboo, usually) a cheap solution, and they're usually fairly rough around the edges - ideal for representing bark with a quick spray of paint before slicing to appropriate lengths. From memory, they are usually about 3mm diameter, so about right for a 9" pit prop in 4mm scale.

[Pacific231G]

This photo taken in the Bordeaux docks in about 1905 shows the size and shape of pit props used in the South Wales coalfield very clearly.

 

 

The detaii of the wagon  (at a higher scan) show sthe typical length (given that French buffer spacing is the same as ours) and the detail of the men aparently posing for the camera shows typical diameters.

 

 

 

The largest part of the vast output of pit props from the Landes forest- At about a million hectares, Europe's largest artificial pine forest- were shipped to Britain and particularly to the South Wales coalfields from Bordeaux and to a lesser extent Bayonne. Props cut from this tree apparently have the great virtue of making a lot of noise before they fail so were well regarded by miners and this Franco-British traffic was far more valuable than the better known wine trade through Bordeaux.

The same ships brought back coal which was key to Bordeaux's industrial development.

 

I know that a lot of the pit props used in British mines also came from the Baltic but, for obvious geographical reasons, those were more likely to have gone to the Yorkshire and North Eastern coalfields.

 

This much later photo, possibly from as late as the early 1950s, shows a typical stack of pit props (and the trees they came from) at the side of one of the  dozen or so short lines of the VFL in the Département des Landes that brought timber from the forest to the Midi main line between Bordeaux and Bayonne. Similar light railways in the adjoinnng Gironde Département transported pit props directly to Bordeaux.

 

 

Finally, these photos that I took in September 2009, about nine months after storm Klaus had felled a large part of the forest, show the colours of these trees which were hurriedly logged and shipped out through temporary rail facilities before they rotted on the ground. The logs about to be loaded onto these wagons are obviously larger than the earlier pit props but I think the colours would have been the same..

 

 

[Martin S-C]

Very useful, everyone, thanks.

 

Sorry - I didn't think - I am modelling in 4mm scale.

I shall have a wander around the garden and see what might be useful naturally - we have a fuchsia, several hebes and a buddleia.

[Fat Controller]

Looking at the photos, the props seem to be between 8 and 9 feet in length. I remember there being a huge stocking area for imported props about where the Freightliner terminal at Wentloog is now. Although David is almost certainly correct about the majority of props coming from Les Landes, there was a considerable trade from Scandinavia, dating to the early/mid 19th century. Both Swansea and Cardiff boasted Norwegian Seamen's Missions, built in a sort-of-Scandinavian style, whilst, into the 20th century, Llanelly had a Swedish/ Norwegian Consul. The reason for the trade from the western part of the area was the anthracite, valued by breweries such as Carlsberg for their malt-houses.

There were other Scandinavian legacies- I'm one of them, having a great-great-grandfather who was a Norwegian sailor.

[Pacific231G]

Looking at the photos, the props seem to be between 8 and 9 feet in length. I remember there being a huge stocking area for imported props about where the Freightliner terminal at Wentloog is now. Although David is almost certainly correct about the majority of props coming from Les Landes, there was a considerable trade from Scandinavia, dating to the early/mid 19th century. Both Swansea and Cardiff boasted Norwegian Seamen's Missions, built in a sort-of-Scandinavian style, whilst, into the 20th century, Llanelly had a Swedish/ Norwegian Consul. The reason for the trade from the western part of the area was the anthracite, valued by breweries such as Carlsberg for their malt-houses.

There were other Scandinavian legacies- I'm one of them, having a great-great-grandfather who was a Norwegian sailor.

Interesting.

From the 1850s the forests of maritime pines in the Grandes Landes de Gascogne (to give the region's full title) that had mainly supplied timber locally for construction and heating (and some mining of iron ore) as well as resin for lighting were being expanded massively. The entire remaining 700 000 hectares of marshy moorland that gave the region its name were, by government decree,  drained and planted. This totally destroyed the traditional "agro-pastoral" way of life of the landes based on small farming communities supported by moorland sheep, but the maritime pine proved to be the only thing that could be successfully grown on the very poor soil.

 

Forestry was to prove highly profitable because it provided both resin, in increasing demand mostly as industrial turpentine, tapped from the growing trees, as well as timber once they matured.

 

Meanwhile, in 1865, an exceptionally severe winter closed the Baltic and presumably the Scandinavian ports for an extended period. The resulting shortage of pit props led to the new trade between S. Wales and Bordeaux which then grew rapidly as timber production increased. Pit props for Britain became the largest market for the pine timber (though it was also used for telegraph posts and sleepers) and for the port of Bordeaux it was, until the Second World War, over half its export traffic by weight.

 

However, I'm pretty sure that pit props from the Landes went to other mining areas in Britain, France and probably elsewhere and that the S. Wales coalfield continued to get a proportion of its props from Scandinavia and the Baltic. I know very little about mining but assume that different types of pine have different characteristics that are optimum for various kinds of ground. 

 

I don't know how much of the timber used in Britain for pit props was locally grown and I can't remember which World War led to the massive forestation of the Scottish and other moors.

 

There are other legacies from the trade between S. Wales and France. Rugby is particularly popular in the South West and one of the regional speclality dishes in Pas De Calais is Welsh Rabbit (aka "Le Welsch"- it is made slightly differently) due I'm convinced to coal ships coming into Boulogne from Swansea to supply its large fishing fleet.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Martin S-C]

I'm enjoying the fascinating historical discussion but does anyone have more input on modelling them?! Has anyone made any and has pictures to show?

 

EDIT: We have a huge hebe in our back garden that has grown to a sphere about 2m diameter. Inside is a lot of dead wood and a few twigs snipped from here produced these:

 

 

Mr Elphinstone, the colliery manager (there is no colliery yet, which is why his complexion is a little grey) inspecting the first few samples of timber sent from the small Bordeaux town of La Hèbe.

 

In fact my railway is set somewhere in or near the Forest of Dean, so timber would be local, more than likely, and felled from Crown Land, unless local timber is of the wrong sort (too bent, for example).

 

The difficulty is in cutting the timber in straight sections - what looks like a straight twig invariably has some twist and curve in it. Lots of wastage! The hebe deadwood has a grey bark so some respraying a little browny-red is necessary.

 

And here's the problem - modelling them in these sorts of quantities!



(photo from the Forest of Dean Branch, Pope and Karau, Wild Swan)

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Martin S-C

[brack]

They look ok, perhaps something a touch in between the thin and thick ones?

 

This is of interest:

 

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1926/mar/11/pit-props-and-pit-wood-imports

[Martin S-C]

Fascinating. You can see the impact of the Great War on imports from France as well as other countries, with Portuguese timber taking over in a big way, and then post-war Scandinavian timber regaining dominance.

[The Johnster]

I have a wagon load of resin pitprops which I think are actually HO scale that I found in an 'everything £1' bin at the Bristol show; I had been experimenting with kebab sticks and the like but they all seemed too thin to my view judging from photos and memory of the real pit prop depot at Marshfield on the SWML between Newport and Cardiff.  There is some very good information on this thread already that I wish I'd had last year!  Pit props are not such an exact thing that being HO matters much, but the load was too long for the 10ton opens used in the UK and I have cut it to stuff the props in in what I hope is not too unprototypical a way.

 

The props at Marshfied, a huge triangular site whose boundaries can be discerned on the current OS map; it is now a trading estate, were imported to the timber wharf at Cardiff's Roath Dock, still used for timber imports, and a Canton 94xx tripped them out to the site and did the shunting; 08 later.  The props are cut to length at the forest's timber yard and transported in that condition, and have to be 'matured' for a period before they are suitable for use underground.  Acquaintances who worked underground have told me that they preferred wooden props to the steel jacks, as the wooden props would creak a bit and give a few seconds warning if anything bad was about to happen, but some men preferred steel and not knowing; it would usually be quick.

 

If you are wanting a lot of them, then you need to find a fast and easy method of mass producing them, which doesn't sound like waiting for garden plants to need pruning, though that is a method I will be looking at to replace my resin load.  My colliery is not a large one, and one wagon is probably sufficient; it comes up on the pick up and is tripped down to the pit by the pick up engine.  

[37Oban]

I'm enjoying the fascinating historical discussion but does anyone have more input on modelling them?! Has anyone made any and has pictures to show?

 

EDIT: We have a huge hebe in our back garden that has grown to a sphere about 2m diameter. Inside is a lot of dead wood and a few twigs snipped from here produced these:

 

Hebe twigs.JPG

 

Mr Elphinstone, the colliery manager (there is no colliery yet, which is why his complexion is a little grey) inspecting the first few samples of timber sent from the small Bordeaux town of La Hèbe.

 

Cornelius Elphinstone checking pit props.JPG

 

In fact my railway is set somewhere in or near the Forest of Dean, so timber would be local, more than likely, and felled from Crown Land, unless local timber is of the wrong sort (too bent, for example).

 

The difficulty is in cutting the timber in straight sections - what looks like a straight twig invariably has some twist and curve in it. Lots of wastage! The hebe deadwood has a grey bark so some respraying a little browny-red is necessary.

 

And here's the problem - modelling them in these sorts of quantities!

 

Dsc01008.jpg

 

(photo from the Forest of Dean Branch, Pope and Karau, Wild Swan)

 

 

 Hi, 

if I was modelling a scene like this I would only glue pieces of wood around a central core of balsa wood or similar, varying the size of the cores.  Saves trying to glue lots of individual pieces together!

 

Roja

[Martin S-C]

The colliery scene will not just have neat piles of stacked pit props but random heaps of them lying every which way - think of a spoil heap but made of pit props. A glance into a Lightmoor or Wild Swan book about Forest of Dean industries will bring up pictures of collieries with pit props just scattered everywhere like a giant game of pick-up-sticks. I can make a base "hummock" piece out of expanded polystyrene or other foam and glue pit props around the outside but I still think I'm going to be needing 1000s of the little blighters.

 

I probably need about a half-dozen wagon loads of these as well.

I'll scoot over to Sainsbury's at the first opportunity and see what wooden kebab sticks are on offer. I am sure there'll be something useable in Hobbycraft as well.

While real plant stems look good, I think they are too difficult to get the exact straightness and the bark looks a little over scale to me. They could be useful stacked upright in wagons though, where I can pack them together and hide any non-straight bits.

Keeping my options open still...

[eastglosmog]

My problem with using real wood for props is that they split when they dry out.

[JohnH]

I've used old window blinds for log loads on several of my OTA's. The blinds are made up from hundreds of straight, round lengths of light coloured wood of about 3mm diameter.

 

My method of producing slightly more 'scale' logs from these is to remove the cotton threads that hold the blind together and then cut 30 or so lengths at a time on a band saw. To give the 'logs' some bark texture I add a mix of PVA, wood ash and some brownish paint to the cut lengths - give them a stir and then lay them out to dry on newspaper. Adding this extra bark really does help to break up the uniformity of the logs.

Edited August 22, 2018 by JohnH

[Harlequin]

Using wooden window blinds sounds like a great idea - consistency and quantity. (Hopefully the "rods" are not hollow.)

 

I'd like to add two suggestions:

1. If they were cut overlong at first then you'd be able to hold each prop at one end while you treat the other. This should mean that props have a good surface all round. (E.g. dip into glue/paint, pop the untreated end into a drilled holder while it dries, then cut to length later.)
2. A paint crackle effect could be applied instead of, or as well as, the glue/ash mixture to get the texture of bark.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Harlequin

[Martin S-C]

Some excellent ideas here. Time for a trip to B&Q to look at blinds now...

[JohnH]

Some excellent ideas here. Time for a trip to B&Q to look at blinds now...

I've picked them up very cheaply in the past at car boot sales.

[The Johnster]

I've used old window blinds for log loads on several of my OTA's. The blinds are made up from hundreds of straight, round lengths of light coloured wood of about 3mm diameter.

 

My method of producing slightly more 'scale' logs from these is to remove the cotton threads that hold the blind together and then cut 30 or so lengths at a time on a band saw. To give the 'logs' some bark texture I add a mix of PVA, wood ash and some brownish paint to the cut lengths - give them a stir and then lay them out to dry on newspaper. Adding this extra bark really does help to break up the uniformity of the logs.

 

Bamboo blinds probably provide wood to thin in profile for pit props, but some of the 'coarser' ones may be ok for this use; it's certainly a good source of plentiful easily used material!

[corneliuslundie]

I was told that there are pit props, with their bark, and pit wood, which has been debarked.

For our club layout I used toothpicks stuck on end on a base so they whole load can be removed easily. But I was assuming pitwood. In retrospect they were perhaps a little small.

However, it was labour intensive and the four wagon loads took several hundred pieces.

Regarding the Norwegian influence there were Norwegian churches in both Cardiff and Barry docks. The Cardiff one is still in existence though it has been moved from its original site. The Barry one was adjacent to the Barry Railway HQ.

There are plenty of views of the Dardiff one on the net but the only view I have found of the Barry one is an aerial view of the docks on the Peoples Collection Wales site.

Jonathan

[Pacific231G]

I was told that there are pit props, with their bark, and pit wood, which has been debarked.

For our club layout I used toothpicks stuck on end on a base so they whole load can be removed easily. But I was assuming pitwood. In retrospect they were perhaps a little small.

However, it was labour intensive and the four wagon loads took several hundred pieces.

Regarding the Norwegian influence there were Norwegian churches in both Cardiff and Barry docks. The Cardiff one is still in existence though it has been moved from its original site. The Barry one was adjacent to the Barry Railway HQ.

There are plenty of views of the Dardiff one on the net but the only view I have found of the Barry one is an aerial view of the docks on the Peoples Collection Wales site.

Jonathan

 

Although a lot of the pit props for the Welsh coalfield came from France (I don't know the proportion) there were also large imports of general timber from Scandinavia and even Russia into many British ports and the mines alone used plenty of timber apart from pit props.

 

To my surprise, as I thought commercial sailing ships (though not all smaller sailing craft)  had more or less disappeared from European waters by then. I've seen a picture of a French sailing ship unloading pit props in Cardiff in 1938. It may have just come over from Brittany, which was a smaller source of timber,(St. Malo exported pit props to Britain but also imported timber from Scandinavia) but Bordeaux or Bayonne would not have been impossible.

 

None of this helps Martin very much with modelling the things but there were some useful suggestions in a thread on the same subject a few years ago

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66703-wooden-pit-props/

 

One obvious-when-you-think-about-it point was that mines needed pit props of different lengths depending on the seams they were working and preferred to get them the right length rather than having to trim them. I assume the main roadways were fairly consistent (before they were supported by steel arches) but the actual seams varied a lot.

 

It would be interesting to know whether the imported props were commoditised, so brought in as bulk loads, to be broken up into lots by dealers to sell to individual mines or imported against specific orders, so many thousand five foot props for Penallta Colliery ordered from a specific forestry company. There's probably a whole trading history here that's been forgotten.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Pacific231G

[doctor quinn]

I think commercial sailing ships were very unusual by 1938, howeversailing clippers were still used in the Australian grain trade at the time.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Erikson

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_race

 

Nick

Edited August 22, 2018 by doctor quinn

[eastglosmog]

A bit Off topic, but the 4 masted barque Olivebank (owned by the Finn Gustav Erikson) was still sailing commercially in 1939 (hit a mine and sank of Jutland in September of that year).

[The Johnster]

Commercial ocean going sailing vessels were rare but not unknown in the '30s, and you may want to Google the 'Flying P' line.  Some routes where the winds were favourable made economic sense with them, but crews were larger than on steam or motor vessels and the running costs coupled with the inability to run to delivery times if the wind failed told against them, as did the overall increase in the size and tonnage capacity of ships that continued throughout the 20th century.