ThomasScott Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) Hello all, I have a riviera line layout set in the 1960s. I was hoping you could tell me: 1) What steam hauled 1960s coach types I could use. 2) What 2-4 coach rakes I could run (coach (e.g. Mk1 Maroon) + type (e.g. BSK). 3) Were chocolate and cream mk1s used on short 2-4 coach services? Many thanks for your time, Thomas Edited August 24, 2018 by ThomasScott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted August 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2018 A bit short on detail there. Where are we talking about? Somewhere on the Western Region presumably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share Posted August 21, 2018 A bit short on detail there. Where are we talking about? Somewhere on the Western Region presumably. Oh sorry, of course. South England, please. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) The subject is a vast one. On the chocolate and cream question, there were some portioned workings, notably Kingswear portions of several trains including (from memory) the Cornishman and Royal Duchy. These were often no more than 4 carriages but some other stock was often coupled for local traffic on the branch. This somewhat distant shot shows a 4-coach chocolate and cream portion and two additions for local traffic. Front four are BSK, SK, CK, BCK. Can't identify the other two. Dart_c1961 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr Edited August 24, 2018 by robertcwp 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 The subject is a vast one. On the chocolate and cream question, there were some portioned workings, notably Kingswear portions of several trains including (from memory) the Cornishman and Royal Duchy. These were often no more than 4 carriages but some other stock was often coupled for local traffic on the branch. This somewhat distant shot shows a 4-coach chocolate and cream portion and two additions for local traffic. Front four are BSK, SK, CK, BSK. Can't identify the other two. Dart_c1961 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr Brilliant, thank you so much! Would it, therefore, be realistic to just run the 4 chocolate and cream coaches alone, but on a local passenger train or other service? Cheers, Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) Have a search through the Flickr site to see what you can find. A lot of photos are black and white but there are some colour photos. Some trains to the West Country were split into two portions, one for Paignton/Kingswear the other for Plymouth/Penzance so you might find a 4 coach formation. This is from the Flickr group 'Diesels in the 1960s' where I used the search term 'Newton Abbot' https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/3003170498/in/photolist-5zo2XG-5zo38b-5ziLBZ-5zo4Kb-5znPus-5zo48u-5ziMYT-5ziDxk-5zo4kC-5ziLUM-5znVEL-5ziEd6-5zixSe-5ziEDP-9ES1i4-dzrrsS-5znWjh-5zo3j9-5znVTW-5zo4wA-aBysaH-GshTeb-QoSYKU-ancnf3-P97TPQ-9bQEbm-pGBonq-atk3p-kv2DNR-29uxPbN-e17Ua6-rhozP5-dT4nT1-dHXBoY-dzde9e-r1ASv7-dzddHg-S5buAp-dzdeA2-WhRD1F-23EAcpH-dziGUN-dziHMW-dzddwi-29wbBy9-dzeBWX-bAjesa-QgnF9Y-Pd6QgW-8HkpaC happy hunting edit - sorry I realise you want steam hauled, there seem to be less steam photos from the 1960s cheers Edited August 22, 2018 by Rivercider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 22, 2018 Author Share Posted August 22, 2018 Have a search through the Flickr site to see what you can find. A lot of photos are black and white but there are some colour photos. Some trains to the West Country were split into two portions, one for Paignton/Kingswear the other for Plymouth/Penzance so you might find a 4 coach formation. This is from the Flickr group 'Diesels in the 1960s' where I used the search term 'Newton Abbot' https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/3003170498/in/photolist-5zo2XG-5zo38b-5ziLBZ-5zo4Kb-5znPus-5zo48u-5ziMYT-5ziDxk-5zo4kC-5ziLUM-5znVEL-5ziEd6-5zixSe-5ziEDP-9ES1i4-dzrrsS-5znWjh-5zo3j9-5znVTW-5zo4wA-aBysaH-GshTeb-QoSYKU-ancnf3-P97TPQ-9bQEbm-pGBonq-atk3p-kv2DNR-29uxPbN-e17Ua6-rhozP5-dT4nT1-dHXBoY-dzde9e-r1ASv7-dzddHg-S5buAp-dzdeA2-WhRD1F-23EAcpH-dziGUN-dziHMW-dzddwi-29wbBy9-dzeBWX-bAjesa-QgnF9Y-Pd6QgW-8HkpaC happy hunting edit - sorry I realise you want steam hauled, there seem to be less steam photos from the 1960s cheers Thanks you so much and no worries - I really appreciate your help. Many thanks, Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Southern England could also mean Southern rather than Western Region. If so, Bulleid and Maunsell stock would be used on both main line and local services. A typical short formation would be a '3-set' (BSK, CK, BSK), sometimes with a 'loose' SO or SK tacked on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Maunsell 2-sets too: BCK, BSK (6-compartment). 4694_Wadebridge_23-9-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Winter 1959-60 WR Exeter District carriage workings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Southern England could also mean Southern rather than Western Region. If so, Bulleid and Maunsell stock would be used on both main line and local services. A typical short formation would be a '3-set' (BSK, CK, BSK), sometimes with a 'loose' SO or SK tacked on. 'Southern' or south coast ?? South England could also include the Eastern Region - with all these J15's it'd be nice to see a model of the Maldon branch . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted August 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2018 We know nothing about the OP. “South England” is not a common expression. Is he from overseas? Few know more about passenger formations than Robert Carroll - but the request is still a bit vague, so even he is unable to be totally specific. Tell us more, Thomas! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 Hello, I will give you more detail, sorry. My layout is a 2 through line and 1 bay platform Station set on the riviera line between 1960 and 1965 (steam focused). Many thanks, Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 24, 2018 Author Share Posted August 24, 2018 (edited) Winter 1959-60 WR Exeter District carriage workings Many thanks, this will be invaluable! Edited August 24, 2018 by ThomasScott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 The subject is a vast one. On the chocolate and cream question, there were some portioned workings, notably Kingswear portions of several trains including (from memory) the Cornishman and Royal Duchy. These were often no more than 4 carriages but some other stock was often coupled for local traffic on the branch. This somewhat distant shot shows a 4-coach chocolate and cream portion and two additions for local traffic. Front four are BSK, SK, CK, BSK. Can't identify the other two. Dart_c1961 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr I think you'll find that the fourth coach is a BCK. It is what I would expect it to be! Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I think you'll find that the fourth coach is a BCK. It is what I would expect it to be! Chris Yes, it is. I can't type! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Closer view of the train that has just left Kingswear. Dart_c1961_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr BSK, SK, CK, BCK then what looks at first glance like a Centenary BCK then a non-gangwayed carriage, possibly a Mark I long-frame S or perhaps a Hawksworth? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpgibbons Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Chocolate/cream Mk1s initially ran only in express formations but from about 1963 these were dispersed so for a brief time chocolate and cream would have been seen mixed with maroon coaches in lesser services. In shorter passenger formations you would likely have a mix of pre-grouping corridor stock, with Mk1s gradually appearing from the early 1960s. A typical 3-4 coach train would be mostly second class (SK) accommodation with first class seats provided by a composite coach (CK) or brake coach (BCK). There would be at least one and often two brake coaches to accommodate the guard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 Chocolate/cream Mk1s initially ran only in express formations but from about 1963 these were dispersed so for a brief time chocolate and cream would have been seen mixed with maroon coaches in lesser services. In shorter passenger formations you would likely have a mix of pre-grouping corridor stock, with Mk1s gradually appearing from the early 1960s. A typical 3-4 coach train would be mostly second class (SK) accommodation with first class seats provided by a composite coach (CK) or brake coach (BCK). There would be at least one and often two brake coaches to accommodate the guard. Fantastic, thank you so much for your time and information. Have a great weekend! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasScott Posted August 25, 2018 Author Share Posted August 25, 2018 Closer view of the train that has just left Kingswear. Dart_c1961_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr BSK, SK, CK, BCK then what looks at first glance like a Centenary BCK then a non-gangwayed carriage, possibly a Mark I long-frame S or perhaps a Hawksworth? Great, many thanks for your time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2018 I think the 5th vehicle in the Kinsgwear departure is not a centenary, but an auto trailer, A27 or A30, and it is possible that the tail vehicle is also a trailer, A38 type, but I wouldn't swear to it. I would imagine the trailers are being conveyed as empty stock and locked out of use (returning to Newton Abbot for weekend servicing?). WR in the early 60s is one of the best served periods for RTR stock; mk1s, Hawksworths, and several types of Colletts are available in suitable crimson/cream or lined maroon liveries. About the only gaps are in non-gangwayed stock other than B sets or mk1s, but B sets and mk1s were used in the area, and in auto trailers other than A27/30 and A38. I would keep chocolate and cream to main line through workings, Cornish Riviera Express portions, and mk1s in general in the minority. Summer Saturdays were pretty frantic, with anything that could turn a wheel in service, sometimes pulled by freight engines, including LMS and LNER stock on through workings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) I think the 5th vehicle in the Kinsgwear departure is not a centenary, but an auto trailer, A27 or A30, and it is possible that the tail vehicle is also a trailer, A38 type, but I wouldn't swear to it. I would imagine the trailers are being conveyed as empty stock and locked out of use (returning to Newton Abbot for weekend servicing?). WR in the early 60s is one of the best served periods for RTR stock; mk1s, Hawksworths, and several types of Colletts are available in suitable crimson/cream or lined maroon liveries. About the only gaps are in non-gangwayed stock other than B sets or mk1s, but B sets and mk1s were used in the area, and in auto trailers other than A27/30 and A38. I would keep chocolate and cream to main line through workings, Cornish Riviera Express portions, and mk1s in general in the minority. Summer Saturdays were pretty frantic, with anything that could turn a wheel in service, sometimes pulled by freight engines, including LMS and LNER stock on through workings. This is as big as I can make that bit of the image (if you click on the link and go to the large version that is): Dart_c1961_crop2 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr Edited August 25, 2018 by robertcwp 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted August 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2018 When did the requirement for a brake coach at each end of the train go? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted August 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2018 Sadly, despite me being a Flickr member, the photo is designated private. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) Sadly, despite me being a Flickr member, the photo is designated private. I have changed the link above to go to a bigger version. Edited August 27, 2018 by robertcwp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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