Lancashire and Yorkshire Pug livery

[HonestTom]

Hi all,

I'd like to repaint my old Dapol pug in Lancashire and Yorkshire livery. While I've come across a couple of sources for the cabside number plates, the lining is giving me the heebie-jeebies.

 

However, looking at photos of the pugs during L&Y days, I can't make any lining out. One of the preserved examples, no. 19, is plain black. What I'm wondering is, were the pugs always lined out, or could I get away with simply keeping it in plain black?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

[daltonparva]

I couldn't swear, but I seem to recollect either Dapol or Hornby did a lined L&Y version once.

[Edwardian]

I wonder if the OP refers to the Dapol, ex-Airfix kit, rather than the Dapol RTR model, subsequently produced by Hornby?

 

Certainly, if it is the RTR version, I would agree that finding one produced in L&Y livery would seem simplest.

 

Often, whether because of dirt or old black and white film, lining often does not show up on old photographs.  This can be tested by looking at pictures of locos known to be lined, but where it is barely if at all discernable in a picture. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Edwardian

[LMS2968]

Most pre-WWII film was 'colour blind', i.e. it could not distinguish between black and red. A black loco lined in red would therefore appear to be unlined, even if ex-works clean.

 

L&YR goods locos used two red lines, as on the model above, although both lines are rather on the heavy side.

[HonestTom]

I wonder if the OP refers to the Dapol, ex-Airfix kit, rather than the Dapol RTR model, subsequently produced by Hornby?

 

Certainly, if it is the RTR version, I would agree that finding one produced in L&Y livery would seem simplest.

 

Often, whether because of dirt or old black and white film, lining often does not show up on old photographs.  This can be tested by looking at pictures of locos known to be lined, but where it is barely if at all discernable in a picture. 

 

I should have specified - it's the ready-to-run version. Basically the situation is that I'm toying with the idea of a pre-grouping micro, as I've recently been painting/bashing some pre-grouping wagons. The current motive power is a Hornby Peckett, but it happens that I have a spare pug in LMS livery bought for a project that didn't wind up happening in the end. My thinking was that if I painted this, it would be a perfect addition to the project at minimal cost.

 

Basically, it's less a case of "I need an L&Y pug" and more "it would be nice if I could repaint the one I have, but it's not the end of the world."

[Edwardian]

I should have specified - it's the ready-to-run version. Basically the situation is that I'm toying with the idea of a pre-grouping micro, as I've recently been painting/bashing some pre-grouping wagons. The current motive power is a Hornby Peckett, but it happens that I have a spare pug in LMS livery bought for a project that didn't wind up happening in the end. My thinking was that if I painted this, it would be a perfect addition to the project at minimal cost.

 

Basically, it's less a case of "I need an L&Y pug" and more "it would be nice if I could repaint the one I have, but it's not the end of the world."

 

In which case, I would have thought someone like Fox would supply generic red lining.

[Steamport Southport]

I'll try to dig out the L&YR Locomotives book later, but I think that lining on them ceased about the turn of the century as did lettering on the minor classes.

 

 

This is the only reference to livery I can find online. But I don't know when that was stopped as I know that later on they were plain black.

 

 

The blue crest was then used on all locomotives except the 0‑4‑0STs and 0-6-0STs which had the red lining but never carried a crest.

 

 

 

http://www.lyrs.org.uk/Locomotives

 

 

Jason

Edited September 3, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[PenrithBeacon]

Most pre-WWII film was 'colour blind', i.e. it could not distinguish between black and red. A black loco lined in red would therefore appear to be unlined, even if ex-works clean.

 

...

This depends very much on the type of film used

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchromatic_film

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthochromasia

[LMS2968]

This depends very much on the type of film used

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchromatic_film

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthochromasia

It does, which is why I said 'most'.

[Steamport Southport]

I can't find the L&Y book by Barry Lane. It's somewhere about...

 

The Illustrated History LMS book by Essery and Jenkinson has them down as always being unlined black during LMS days with either large numbers on the tank and LMS on the cabside, or the reverse with large LMS and cabside numbers.

 

One photograph however has 11230 in 1928 with no markings apart from a small number where the cabside numberplate was. In that they have just removed the L&Y number plate and painted the number in it's place.

 

 

 

Jason

[Caledonian]

There is a nice collection of photies of L&Y pugs in Locomotives Illustrated 122 [1998]. At first glance all but one in works grey appear plain black, but peering very closely they are indeed lined, including two photies which are attributed to a gentleman named Cooke said to date from about 1920. 

 

However, its also pretty clear that the red lining as depicted on the Dapol model in Edwardian's post is far too heavy and overscale, radically changing the overall appearance of the locomotive.

 

I'd be very much inclined therefore to look at two options here. The first would be to apply a single very fine red line - technically incorrect but more realistic in appearance than a double line - or, as I've done myself being all too aware of my own technical limitations - just go for a plain black livery, because that will look more realistic

[Edwardian]

There is a nice collection of photies of L&Y pugs in Locomotives Illustrated 122 [1998]. At first glance all but one in works grey appear plain black, but peering very closely they are indeed lined, including two photies which are attributed to a gentleman named Cooke said to date from about 1920. 

 

However, its also pretty clear that the red lining as depicted on the Dapol model in Edwardian's post is far too heavy and overscale, radically changing the overall appearance of the locomotive.

 

I'd be very much inclined therefore to look at two options here. The first would be to apply a single very fine red line - technically incorrect but more realistic in appearance than a double line - or, as I've done myself being all too aware of my own technical limitations - just go for a plain black livery, because that will look more realistic

 

Your point about over-scale lining means Honest Tom may well be best lining his own.  Fox, I think, do various width.  I have heard of 009 modellers using 2mm scale lining; this may be appropriate here. While I have not checked the online catalogue, from what I have glimpsed, I'd be surprised if it did not offer something fine enough.

[Skinnylinny]

Could you get away with using N-gauge lining intended for BR locos in brunswick green? It would be orange-black-orange, rather than red-black-red, but this might not be too obvious to the eye at that size, especially if weathered.

 

If the incorrect colour does offend, I've found that it is possible to "colour in" Fox transfers with a red Sharpie permanent marker to get the appropriate red lining for some project - I've coloured in parts of white-black-white N gauge lining transfers in order to get LB&SCR red-black-white lining. You'd need to draw over the orange lines with the marker (the black won't change colour). When you soak the transfer in water, gently rub with a soft brush before the transfer starts to slide, which will remove the red ink from the backing paper and leave it on the orange ink, giving you red-black-red lining.

[Caledonian]

I'd be inclined to stick with plain black. It's the old story about the visual effect of miniaturisation. Imagine how much you would actually see if a real one was such a distance from you as to appear the same size as a 4mm model. I very much doubt that the red lining would be visible at all.

[HonestTom]

Many thanks to everyone for the information and advice here, it's very much appreciated. For the time being, I'm inclined to keep it plain black - I'm going to weather it anyway. Possibly when I'm feeling a little more confident in my lining abilities, I'll try for something more technically accurate, but I think I'll rely on a combination of scale, distance and dirt to hide my sins here.