Location help 47471

[acg5324]

Help requested for this purchased Medium Format negative which is driving me nuts!

 

Its 47471 in third rail territory. The picture shows a station in the background that could be a CLASP type building with a modern footbridge. There is the hint of a rail over road bridge between the station and train and the track curves sharply right past the station with the track curving left by the photographer. 8 or 9 car Mk2 rake with what looks like a Mk1 RMB.

 

I can narrow the dates a bit as 47471 was named Nov 1982 got its headlight around Spring 1984 and then Intercity livery by August 1987. So 4/84 to 6/87ish.

 

A lot has changed in 30+ years but this is quite a distinctive location. I've spent ages on Google Maps following railway lines around. This looks SR to me but I've had some North London line suggestions too which haven't panned out. I don't think this is Merseyside.  Any suggestions gratefully received.

 

[iands]

Help requested for this purchased Medium Format negative which is driving me nuts!

 

Its 47471 in third rail territory. The picture shows a station in the background that could be a CLASP type building with a modern footbridge. There is the hint of a rail over road bridge between the station and train and the track curves sharply right past the station with the track curving left by the photographer. 8 or 9 car Mk2 rake with what looks like a Mk1 RMB.

 

I can narrow the dates a bit as 47471 was named Nov 1982 got its headlight around Spring 1984 and then Intercity livery by August 1987. So 4/84 to 6/87ish.

 

A lot has changed in 30+ years but this is quite a distinctive location. I've spent ages on Google Maps following railway lines around. This looks SR to me but I've had some North London line suggestions too which haven't panned out. I don't think this is Merseyside.  Any suggestions gratefully received.

 

 

 

Hi Andy,

 

Might not be too much of a help, but if you can zoom in and read the details on the equipment cabinet opposite the loco cab this might help to narrow down to a station and identify a possible location - the info usually relates to mileage.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Steamport Southport]

Wirral?

 

I'm sure there were a few railtours to the docks at Birkenhead in the mid 1980s. Fits in with it being a Crewe locomotive.

 

 

 

Jason

[acg5324]

Hi Andy,

 

Might not be too much of a help, but if you can zoom in and read the details on the equipment cabinet opposite the loco cab this might help to narrow down to a station and identify a possible location - the info usually relates to mileage.

 

Regards, Ian.

It is readable I’ll check, funnily I did think of listing that with the description. Off the top of my head it was C5/3 but I’ll confirm.

[iands]

Wirral?

 

I'm sure there were a few railtours to the docks at Birkenhead in the mid 1980s. Fits in with it being a Crewe locomotive.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Hi Jason,

 

There seems to be a bit of a gap in 47471's allocation history. According to the BRDatabase info it was allocated to York in 1974, and then no more allocations until its scrapping in 2004. On this basis I was going to offer the suggestion it might be working something like a Newcastle-Poole service, in the hope this might narrow down the route. But if it was a Crewe loco during the suggested period, I'll go along with your plausible suggestion of perhaps somewhere on the Wirral.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Steamport Southport]

Hi Jason,

 

There seems to be a bit of a gap in 47471's allocation history. According to the BRDatabase info it was allocated to York in 1974, and then no more allocations until its scrapping in 2004. On this basis I was going to offer the suggestion it might be working something like a Newcastle-Poole service, in the hope this might narrow down the route. But if it was a Crewe loco during the suggested period, I'll go along with your plausible suggestion of perhaps somewhere on the Wirral.

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Try the Class 47 website. Everything you ever wanted to know about Class 47s (but were afraid to ask).

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/

 

 

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_numbers.php?index=2&jndex=0&kndex=70&s_loco=47471

 

It was always a regular around the North West and was always memorable as it was one of the GC namers.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited September 5, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[acg5324]

The location cabinet does read C5/3.

 

Class47.co.uk is one of my most regularly used websites, I've been through the railtours on sixbellsjunction and pictures on Flickr etc, Railgenarchieve, The Bashing years etc......no joy.

[Trains4U]

There is every possibility it could be Southern.

CD allocated engines turned up all the time on workings from Bristol and Cardiff (Though its not a pompey cardiff train)      The line west of Bournemouth hadn't been electrified by then, so there's no point looking there.

 

Could it be in Kent?  boat train?

[acg5324]

There is every possibility it could be Southern.

CD allocated engines turned up all the time on workings from Bristol and Cardiff (Though its not a pompey cardiff train)      The line west of Bournemouth hadn't been electrified by then, so there's no point looking there.

 

Could it be in Kent?  boat train?

Indeed they did, I think it’s a Southern location and I think this is probably one of the Brighton cross country services, Kent didn’t start until May 1986 by which time the trains were mainly air conditioned Mk2s. It’s cerainly not Brighton mainline or diversionary routes, Crystal Palace, Tulse Hill etc. They did get diverted on occasion via Ascot but I can’t find a SWD location that’s similar.

[iands]

Andy,

 

Thanks for the "C5/3" detail. I thought it was something like that but couldn't be sure. If there was more than one cabinet at the same location, the general convention was(is) to label them A, B, C etc. The '5' in this case would relate to the mileage of the line. The '3' can relate to yardage (in 100 yard blocks), 'chains', or "cabinet group 3".

 

So, we are looking for a section of double-track 3rd rail railway at roughly 5 miles, with a station and underbridge at one end of the platforms and an overbridge a short distance in the other direction, sandwiched between left-hand and right-hand curves - phew!

 

I will scour the 5-mile diagrams I have access to, to try and identify possible locations, but it might take a couple of days.

 

Regards, Ian.

[acg5324]

Thanks Ian, much appreciated.

 

Don’t let that stop any other suggestions, guesses or bullseye!

Edited September 5, 2018 by acg5324

[JeffP]

Could even be an excursion. We had a few with 47's on the front from Humberside to Brighton, Margate and Portsmouth for IoW.

[acg5324]

Yes it could be an excursion, they didn’t often run with a buffet but not unknown. Early Mk2s were still front line stock in 1984 but again not unknown on excursions as I have a photo I took of a Gt Yarmouth to Brighton merrymaker class 37 and a full East Anglia set of early Mk2s.

[beast66606]

Wirral?

 

I'm sure there were a few railtours to the docks at Birkenhead in the mid 1980s. Fits in with it being a Crewe locomotive.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Not the Wirral

[guzzler17]

Thanks for the "C5/3" detail. I thought it was something like that but couldn't be sure. If there was more than one cabinet at the same location, the general convention was(is) to label them A, B, C etc. The '5' in this case would relate to the mileage of the line. The '3' can relate to yardage (in 100 yard blocks), 'chains', or "cabinet group 3".

 

So, we are looking for a section of double-track 3rd rail railway at roughly 5 miles, with a station and underbridge at one end of the platforms and an overbridge a short distance in the other direction, sandwiched between left-hand and right-hand curves - phew!

In an effort to help I've trawled through my miles and chains books for stations with the mileage criteria in post #10.

 

I came up with the following for the Southern

 

West Dulwich

Sydenham Hill

Streatham Hill

Waddon Marsh

Shoreham-by-Sea

Swanwick

 

and for the Wirral (just in case)

 

Capenhurst

Wallasey Village

Leasowe

Waterloo

Old Road

 

but a quick look on Google maps and none of them fit the location photographed.

 

If the reference C5/3 is correct could it relate to a location that is 5 miles from a junction, a change of signalbox area, or from the opposite end of a line i.e. not from MP 0?  An example of the latter is Winnersh which is around 5 miles from Reading.

 

Happy to look through my books again if any new thoughts are forthcoming.

[iands]

In an effort to help I've trawled through my miles and chains books for stations with the mileage criteria in post #10.

 

I came up with the following for the Southern

 

West Dulwich

Sydenham Hill

Streatham Hill

Waddon Marsh

Shoreham-by-Sea

Swanwick

 

and for the Wirral (just in case)

 

Capenhurst

Wallasey Village

Leasowe

Waterloo

Old Road

 

but a quick look on Google maps and none of them fit the location photographed.

 

If the reference C5/3 is correct could it relate to a location that is 5 miles from a junction, a change of signalbox area, or from the opposite end of a line i.e. not from MP 0?  An example of the latter is Winnersh which is around 5 miles from Reading.

 

Happy to look through my books again if any new thoughts are forthcoming.

Hi Guzzler,

 

I came up with most of the locations that you have listed and agree that none of them match anything like the photo. I'm beginning to think, as you have, that the "C5/3" is perhaps not following the usual convention and might be a local interpretation. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Wickham Green]

Hi Guzzler,

 

I came up with most of the locations that you have listed and agree that none of them match anything like the photo. I'm beginning to think, as you have, that the "C5/3" is perhaps not following the usual convention and might be a local interpretation. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

 

Regards, Ian.

It's definitely not Sydenham Hill ( no curve, no industry ) or Waddon Marsh ( too many tracks, too many trees ) ................. without knowing the time of day, it would seem to be heading roughly west in the morning or roughly north in the afternoon - which may, or may not help ! : westbound in Kent in the morning is unlikely for a train from Crewe for instance ! .............. the vegetation would suggest high summer. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Wickham Green

[jonny777]

In an effort to help I've trawled through my miles and chains books for stations with the mileage criteria in post #10.

 

I came up with the following for the Southern

 

West Dulwich

Sydenham Hill

Streatham Hill

Waddon Marsh

Shoreham-by-Sea

Swanwick

 

and for the Wirral (just in case)

 

Capenhurst

Wallasey Village

Leasowe

Waterloo

Old Road

 

but a quick look on Google maps and none of them fit the location photographed.

 

If the reference C5/3 is correct could it relate to a location that is 5 miles from a junction, a change of signalbox area, or from the opposite end of a line i.e. not from MP 0?  An example of the latter is Winnersh which is around 5 miles from Reading.

 

Happy to look through my books again if any new thoughts are forthcoming.

 

 

I'm afraid it is not Winnersh. The line through the station is in a cutting, and there are no industrial buildings backing onto the line. 

[John M Upton]

Definitely not either Swanwick or Shoreham by Sea.

[Metr0Land]

Just another thought.  There used to be a cross-country working that started (on Saturdays at least) at Reading and went to Dover in order to feed into the day's x-country working pattern.  I recall using this on I think the 2nd Network Day where you could go anywhere on NSE for a fiver (?).  Services were ram-packed on the early Network days but this effectively went against the flow, and then late morning coming back from Dover was after the main crush of people in Kent getting on the trains.  Having said that, this location doesn't seem to fit either!

[iands]

Just spotted another potential clue, opposite the 3rd coach is the back of a PSR sign that is either "20" or "25". This could mean a fairly tight curve or the approach to a junction/cross-over perhaps?

 

Regards, Ian.

[Wickham Green]

........ nor West Dulwich ( embankment ) or Streatham Hill ( no curve, bridges wrong ) .......

[acg5324]

Just another thought.  There used to be a cross-country working that started (on Saturdays at least) at Reading and went to Dover in order to feed into the day's x-country working pattern.  I recall using this on I think the 2nd Network Day where you could go anywhere on NSE for a fiver (?).  Services were ram-packed on the early Network days but this effectively went against the flow, and then late morning coming back from Dover was after the main crush of people in Kent getting on the trains.  Having said that, this location doesn't seem to fit either!

The Reading to Dover train ran MX when it started from Portsmouth & Southsea it’s booked route was via Slough and Olympia.

There is definitely a tight right hand curve past the station.

[acg5324]

Just another thought.  There used to be a cross-country working that started (on Saturdays at least) at Reading and went to Dover in order to feed into the day's x-country working pattern.  I recall using this on I think the 2nd Network Day where you could go anywhere on NSE for a fiver (?).  Services were ram-packed on the early Network days but this effectively went against the flow, and then late morning coming back from Dover was after the main crush of people in Kent getting on the trains.  Having said that, this location doesn't seem to fit either!

The Reading to Dover train ran MX when it started from Portsmouth & Southsea, it’s booked route was via Slough and Olympia.

 

Well spotted Ian with the speed restriction sign looks like 25mph to me.

[DY444]

I'm not at all convinced but it *might* be Eltham before the station was rebuilt and the A20 dual carriageway was built.