Changing BR to GWR

[VicZA]

Hi All,

 

Firstly excuse my lack of knowledge on all these subjects - I am not only new to Model Railroading but also new to thee UK ... so lots to learn    Thankfully I can across RMWeb and have already learnt a lot.

 

For the questions:

(a) Does anyone have a list or link of the trains that were used by GWR? This may well be a long list so if anyone know a better way to get this please suggest

(b) Is there a GWR "club" or category on RMWeb?

© Did the GWR ever run the CLASS 3F 0-6-0T - I want to model a Coal Terminal but want it to be GWR ... just like their livery etc.

(d) Would it be possible to convert this model (see below) to GWR livery. I want to get it all weathered up to - make it look like a real warhorse !!

 

Thanks (as always) for the help ...

[88C]

Hello VicZA,

Welcome to RMWeb and the UK.

 

The loco you picture is an LMS jinty and is not suitable for conversion to GWR. Your best bet is to find a pannier tank, the Bachmann version runs very well. Also possible would be a Hornby 2721 if you can live with it's compromises to fit a standard chassis.

 

There is a Great Western section on RMWeb hidden under Special Interests. I can also recommend the website GWR Modelling, www.gwr.org.uk

 

An excellent choice of railway and if you look under layout topics you will find some very nice GW layouts, A Nod To Brent for example.

 

Best of luck in your projects and don't forget there is plenty of help on here but you can expect threads to wander off course.

 

Brian

 

 

edited to add link.

Edited September 12, 2018 by 88C

[Jeff Smith]

Your 3F looks to be a very old model (Triang?), I'm wondering if it is worth the effort. A Bachmann 57xx Pannier Tank or 45xx small Prairie Tank or similar would be typical for a coal terminal or branch line terminus with coal yard. The most popular period for modelling this type of operation would probably be between the world wars, say the 1920s/30's. Any later and you get into the wartime operation and in 1948 nationalization when everything became British Railways (same equipment but different livery).

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, VicZA,

 

Welcome aboard! I agree with the recommendations of 88C for info on all things GWR.

 

If you are looking for something to do with your ex-LMS Jinty, you might consider the conversion/rebuild that I completed some time ago and uploaded here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nomswjr7.html

 

 

Feel free to pose more questions: if you are trying to learn, no question will be regarded as silly. We all had to learn sometime. (We weren't born with any special knowledge.)

 

Happy modelling and regards,

 

Rob

 

[Steamport Southport]

Hello VicZA,

Welcome to RMWeb and the UK.

 

The loco you picture is an LMS jinty and is not suitable for conversion to GWR. Your best bet is to find a pannier tank, the Bachmann version runs very well. Also possible would be a Hornby 2721 if you can live with it's compromises to fit a standard chassis.

 

There is a Great Western section on RMWeb hidden under Special Interests. I can also recommend the website GWR Modelling, www.gwr.org.uk

 

An excellent choice of railway and if you look under layout topics you will find some very nice GW layouts, A Nod To Brent for example.

 

Best of luck in your projects and don't forget there is plenty of help on here but you can expect threads to wander off course.

 

Brian

 

 

edited to add link.

 

Link didn't take try here.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/

 

Also try these.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_Western_Railway

 

 

I wouldn't totally dismiss the Jinty though. A good model to practice on if nothing else.

 

There was plenty of places where they worked alongside GWR locomotives, especially in the Midlands, London, Wales and around Bristol/Bath/Gloucester.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Fowler_Class_3F

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Plenty of material out there for your to find, VicZA, the GW is probably the most written about and discussed of the pre-nationalised 'Big Four' British railways.  The company was known for it's locomotives, which were very distinctive in style and design.  The larger ones were traceable to designs by George Jackson Churchward in the early years of the 20th century, and had a family resemblance and GW 'look' to them; prominently tapered domeless boilers with square 'Belpaire' fireboxes, safety valves in brass covers half way along, and copper capped chimneys.  The 0-6-0 tank engines, the equivalent of your pictured LMS 'JInty', were also all of a similar appearance with square 'pannier' tanks so that the inner workings could be easily accessed and, again, Belpaire type fireboxes used; there were minor visual differences between a number of types of slightly differing sizes that all looked the same at first glance.  This is confusing if you are starting to learn about them.

 

The other railways all used features of this GW 'design school', indeed several of their own loco designers were head hunted from the GW, notably Sir William Stanier for the LMS, but the 'look' was not replicated on the other railways.  It is not unfair to say that the company's great success with locos during the Edwardian period led to the conclusion that it knew best and no further development was needed, and indeed these locos lasted until the end of steam on what became British Railways Western Region in the mid 60s, but by that time the truth was that GW designs were perhaps 30 years behind everyone else's.  

 

This means that the conversion of, to take your example, an LMS Jinty into anything resembling a GW loco is next to impossible, though there may be some locos from railways absorbed by the company at the 'grouping' of British companies into 4 big ones in 1923 that could be converted from it and painted in GW livery.  But to be honest the simplest way to acquire models of GW locos is to buy ready to run (RTR) models of GW locos, and the same goes for passenger coaches, brake vans, and to a lesser extent goods wagons.

 

Your Jinty is a very old Triang loco and current versions of it are much more detailed and closer to scale, but the old Triang ones are bombproof reliable and, if the wheel treads and pickups are clean, not bad runners though noisy by modern standards.  Rob's 0-4-4T is a cut and shut of one to represent a loco from one of the absorbed companies. the history of these is a fascinating subject in it's own right, as many were rebuilt by their new owner using the distinctive taper boilers with safety valves in brass covers (this was not just decoration, it acted as a directional loudspeaker and took the noise of a loco blowing off steam directly upwards, away from bystanders on the ground.  The deafening roar from other railways' locos in this instance shows how effective this is), making them look like GW locos but with odd styles of tanks or cylinder covers.  

 

Rob makes the very good point that there are no silly questions if you're a newbie, and asking is the best way to find things out.  You will soon absorb a talent for distinguishing the GW's locos from the others; the companies very distinctive style will help you with this.  It may take you a little longer to distinguish them from each other, though!  Plenty of information is available on line, and you could do worse than start with Wikipedia and go through the company's locomotive classes one by one looking at the photos.

 

As the nationalised British Railways adopted the GW's livery for it's express passenger locos, the appearance of the GW's locos was the least changed after nationalisation, and the new BR numbering scheme allocated the number range 1-9999 to them; this enabled them to continue to carry the distinctive brass number plates that they'd always had.

 

Welcome to the insanity, I mean hobby!

Edited September 14, 2018 by The Johnster

[DCB]

There is a Triang Hornby GWR Pannier tank in GWR livery which uses the same chassis as your Jinty and the bodies come up regularly on eBay.  The chassis is just about bombproof as is the motor but won't like modern track, even code 100 is a bit difficult and code 75 has them clattering along the sleepers instead of the rails.

 

The 0-4-4T modelled above was a one off purchased by the MSWJR from Beyer Peacock I believe and spent its GWR time shuttling between Swindon old town Station and Swindon Junction about 2 miles.

 

The Jinty can be carved into a representation of a GWR Metro 2-4-0T but then a again a lump of coal can be carved into a representation of a GWR Metro tank .

 

The GWR is historically the most modelled railway, they used 0-6-0 tanks as general purpose locos for short trips on main lines both passenger and goods.   Most other railways used tender engines for local goods work and kept their 0-6-0 tanks for shunting, so many modellers model GWR practice with other railway's locos.

Edited September 14, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Harlequin]

Just to add to all the good advice above, the old Jinty chassis might be difficult to convert to DCC, if you intend to go down that route.

 

To save yourself a lot of hassle at this early stage you might consider simply buying a DCC-ready Bachmann Pannier Tank, instead.

[HonestTom]

The Jinty could perhaps show up as a locomotive hired from the LMS, the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway or the War Department. I know some were sold into industry, but I don't know if that happened in GWR days.

 

You could even cheat and say that the Jinty was bought by the GWR for whatever reason - there were plenty of instances of engines ending up with the "wrong" company for various reasons. For instance, the Weston, Clevedon and Portishead Railway bought some London, Brighton and South Coast Railway 'Terriers.' Then the WC&PR got taken over by the GWR, so the GWR wound up with LBSCR engines.

 

Or you could chop the Jinty up a bit to make it look like a freelance loco obtained by the GWR. When the GWR took over the railways of South Wales at the Grouping, they wound up with some real oddities which they tried, as best they could, to "Swindonise."

[Nick Holliday]

The GWR did actually build a class of 0-6-0 side tanks, with 40 examples appearing in 1882-4. This was Class 1813, more familiarly known as a saddle tank class. They had 4' 6" wheels, and if you squint they could pass as a Jinty. They were all converted, apart from one which went straight to pannier tank, to saddle tanks around the turn of the century, but a few lasted to 1909. You could propose that, for some reason, side tanks were retained for some unspecified duty, and then there would have been progressive updates to account for the Belpaire boiler and the overall cab. One of the class, as a pannier tank, survived to 1949.

[Jeff Smith]

At the end of the day Rule 1, It's your railway, applies.

[bike2steam]

Just simply punch in 'GWR steam' in search in any internet source and enjoy the read, or any other railway subject - you can't do too much research.

[TonyMay]

Your prototype knowledge will only increase with time, meaning that you may somewhat regret earlier modelling decisions that looked right to you at the time, but you then subsequently learn better.

 

The key factor, budget, has not been discussed.  I'd definitely stick the Triang jinty on ebay and start with a pannier tank of some description.  The Hornby railroad is cheap, but the model is a little old and it shows:

 

 

 

The Bachmann panniers tend to be rather better models.  Personally, I'd rather save up money and have 1 Bachmann one than 3-4 of the Hornby ones.  The detail is better and the model is less likely to run poorly or fail to run at all.  Quality over quantity.  Bahcmann produce some different variations on the basic pannier theme.  Here are a couple of examples:

 

[Coppercap]

The Hornby railroad is cheap, but the model is a little old and it shows:

 

horny tank.jpg

 

Thats a Hornby (ex-Triang Hornby) Pannier, which first came out in about 1971. It's not been available for perhaps 35 years or more. It's never been a Hornby 'Railroad' branded model, unlike the open-cabbed Pannier, which has been a 'Railroad' model, and effectively replaced it. Edited September 21, 2018 by Coppercap

[MJI]

The GWR ran alongside other railways, notably LMS at Bristol, Gloucester, Worcester, Cheltenham, Shrewsbury.

[Jeff Smith]

Railways often had running rights over other railways.  There are examples around the London area of joint railways where two or more railways ran services over common rails and also had their own goods depots.  I'ii try and dig out some examples.

 

Your model will probably be fictitious but could for example include LMS trains on the main line passing a GWR coal depot.

[VicZA]

I eventually got a Pannier Tank from Bachmann (32-200B) and think the model itself is brilliant ! Its a slightly older version and so I am going to upgrade it to DCC and see how she goes - but I have only heard good things about it so far ... and I managed to pick it up off ebay for £31.00 which I think is a great deal

 

I got this one .... (this is a web image but mine is also in pristine condition)

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by VicZA

[Jeff Smith]

I guess you have now set your period to be 1945 to 1948+ (ie until the BR 're-identification) according to gwr.org. Looks like a nice model and should perform well.

[Coppercap]

Well done! That's a lot better than faffing around unsuccessfully trying to "Great Westernise" something quite as unsuitable as an LMS engine! As already pointed out, be aware that "G W R" on the tank sides is suitable only for 1942 onwards, but many remained in GWR livery for many years after nationalisation in 1948 (that's BR...).       

Edited September 24, 2018 by Coppercap

[Nick Gough]

Many years ago (before Bachmann or Mainline produced them) I had a go at improving a Hornby Pannier:

Still nowhere near today's standards (and it won't run on Peco bullhead).

 

However, a much simpler change a couple of days ago for my grandson:

 

 

PS. The front wheel isn't really green! Just a weird flash effect.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Nick Gough

[VicZA]

I guess you have now set your period to be 1945 to 1948+ (ie until the BR 're-identification) according to gwr.org. Looks like a nice model and should perform well.

I am still not 100% on what all the different era's and periods were and still have a lot to learn ... I assume it's to the reference of the "G W R" on the tank and not the "Great Western" as was done before on the livery ... is that correct?

 

My idea is to model a Forest of Dean "type" of coal mining scene so .... as long as they were used to carry coal I am happy

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, that's correct.

 

I'm afraid although a GWR fan I know virtually nothing about the Forest of Dean. It looks like a trip to the Coleford Great Western Railway Museum might help you.

[TonyMay]

Rule 1 applies, but.  The loco is basically suitable for about the period 1942-1956.

 

That livery period creates some issues with the other stock you choose to run with it, particularly wagons.   PO wagons were pooled from the beginning of the war.  So if you had gone pre-war, then could have had private owner wagons from (say) Forest of Dean collieries running from the FoD to other parts.  After the war started, you'd find wagons roaming further afield, such as PO wagons from the south wales collieries in the FoD.  After the creation of the National Coal Board (NCB) in 1947, and BR in 1948, PO wagons were slowly painted into NCB/BR liveries and logically more BR things wagons would appear the further you go into the BR era.  After 1948, pannier tanks would also have been pained into BR liveries, but it took time to do this, so some survived for up to 10 years or so in GWR livery, and that represents the upper limit on your time period.

Edited September 26, 2018 by TonyMay

[VicZA]

Rule 1 applies, but.  The loco is basically suitable for about the period 1942-1956.

 

That livery period creates some issues with the other stock you choose to run with it, particularly wagons.   PO wagons were pooled from the beginning of the war.  So if you had gone pre-war, then could have had private owner wagons from (say) Forest of Dean collieries running from the FoD to other parts.  After the war started, you'd find wagons roaming further afield, such as PO wagons from the south wales collieries in the FoD.  After the creation of the National Coal Board (NCB) in 1947, and BR in 1948, PO wagons were slowly painted into NCB/BR liveries and logically more BR things wagons would appear the further you go into the BR era.  After 1948, pannier tanks would also have been pained into BR liveries, but it took time to do this, so some survived for up to 10 years or so in GWR livery, and that represents the upper limit on your time period.

So is there a pre-war Pannier Tank?

 

Rule #1 always applies

[Nick Gough]

Your pannier (3715) was a pre-war loco having entered service in January 1937. However, it would not have carried the 'G W R' insignia at that time.

 

When first built it would have carried the roundel 'shirtbutton' like this:

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/image/cache/data/HK-2S-007-010-02-1200x800.jpg

 

The earliest versions of this type of pannier (8750 sub-class) were introduced in 1933 and would have carried the full 'GREAT WESTERN' insignia then.