Class 800 fails near Exeter

[Captain Kernow]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-45519014

 

I wonder if anyone has any inside information on the cause of this failure.

 

I know from lengthy personal experience that each incident is different and that circumstances are rarely the same, but I do wonder nevertheless at the time these poor unfortunate passengers were waiting for this to be resolved.

 

I recall that we rescued the stranded passengers in a failed Voyager at Sprey Point on the Dawlish Sea Wall in October 2004 rather more quickly than this more recent incident.

 

[Kris]

Quite a bit on it from about half way down this page http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94506-class-800-updates/page-165

[Gordon A]

"The 14:00 Penzance to Paddington service came to a halt at 17:15 BST just north of Exeter on Thursday."

Three and a quarter hours from Penzance to just North of Exeter - misreported or Snailrail?

 

Gordon A

[RJS1977]

"The 14:00 Penzance to Paddington service came to a halt at 17:15 BST just north of Exeter on Thursday."

Three and a quarter hours from Penzance to just North of Exeter - misreported or Snailrail?

 

Gordon A

 

It's accurate. It's a lot further to Penzance than most people realise, the line beyond Newton Abbot has sharp curves and steep gradients, and there are a lot of stops in Cornwall,

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40061/2018/09/13

[Zomboid]

If that's accurate, then 25 minutes of the 3 hours Penzance to Exeter run time is station dwell time. And that's without allowing for acceleration and deceleration.

 

I was a bit surprised it was that much, but there are a lot of stations.

[Kris]

If that's accurate, then 25 minutes of the 3 hours Penzance to Exeter run time is station dwell time. And that's without allowing for acceleration and deceleration.

 

I was a bit surprised it was that much, but there are a lot of stations.

 

The train should have arrived at Exeter at 16.59. Exeter is station 12 after leaving Penzance for this service. 

[Mallard60022]

I doubt those heaps of #### on diesel will last more than few months on that route, all those big fills hills and windy curved bits..............or am I being rude?

Phil

 

Edit for fat finger error.......

Edited September 19, 2018 by Mallard60022

['CHARD]

I doubt those heaps of #### on diesel will last more than few months on that route, all those big fills and windy curved bits..............or am I being rude?

Phil

 

Big Fill, Phil?  

[Glorious NSE]

Padd to PZ failed last night at Totnes - was that one an HST?

[Mallard60022]

Big Fill, Phil?  

Durrrrrr...... Gradients......

[Georgeconna]

Makes great Tele though,,,,,

[jim.snowdon]

I doubt those heaps of #### on diesel will last more than few months on that route, all those big fills and windy curved bits..............or am I being rude?

Phil

It's probably much like what could have been said when the HSTs displaced the Westerns, or when the Deltics took over from Gresley's pacifics.

 

Jim

[Covkid]

Answering the Captain's queston I believe the train formed of two 5 car class 802s  failed near Hele & Bradninch at around 1720ish with 380ish pax on board. The brakes had applied due to an air leak on one of the units, and a Hitachi engineer was got to the site around 1845. A little after 2200 the decision was made to evacuate the train onto the ballast and a short walk to a Voyager which had been sent in to rescue the stranded folk.

 

i believe the two units still coupled together were able to move off site under their own power to Stoke Gifford depot just after midnight.

 

It has been suggested that a component in the air system was not fully tightened up at build stage and worked loose. The train was assembled in Pistoia in Italy in a factory Hitachi acquired from Ansaldo Breda.       

[Talltim]

Padd to PZ failed last night at Totnes - was that one an HST?

Yes, rescued by another HST. Passengers transferred to XC train at Ivybridge 170 mins late

[Talltim]

Answering the Captain's queston I believe the train formed of two 5 car class 802s failed near Hele & Bradninch at around 1720ish with 380ish pax on board. The brakes had applied due to an air leak on one of the units, and a Hitachi engineer was got to the site around 1845. A little after 2200 the decision was made to evacuate the train onto the ballast and a short walk to a Voyager which had been sent in to rescue the stranded folk.

 

i believe the two units still coupled together were able to move off site under their own power to Stoke Gifford depot just after midnight.

 

It has been suggested that a component in the air system was not fully tightened up at build stage and worked loose. The train was assembled in Pistoia in Italy in a factory Hitachi acquired from Ansaldo Breda.

I’ve heard that the component in question was in the nose cone and so not damaged by flying ballast or whatever. Still puzzled as to why an air leak should stop the units uncoupling and the good one moving to a location to detrain the passengers.

 

Edit, Ansaldo Breda built trains http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20130531_00605855?pid=2512986

Edited September 18, 2018 by Talltim

[Mallard60022]

It's probably much like what could have been said when the HSTs displaced the Westerns, or when the Deltics took over from Gresley's pacifics.

 

Jim

Well.......sort of, however the HSTs have outlived Westerns by yonks and the Derelicts were a pretty good replacement for the Pacifics and I'm saying that despite my love of the latter. The 800s could end being OK but they do appear to be (seriously?) underpowered on Diesel and they are probably too prone to teccy failures like so many modern gismos?

OK I'll go and get my steam iron and my petrol mower and my ..................

Phil

Edited September 18, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Covkid]

I doubt those heaps of #### on diesel will last more than few months on that route, all those big fills and windy curved bits..............or am I being rude?

Phil

 

 

I am no apologist for Hitachi, nor a defence of what has been delivered to our railways from them, but you really need to consider all the facts.

The DfT made such a meal of the HST replacement programme that I suspect most people just lost the will. The requirement morphed from literally a HST mk2 with diesel power cars each end of trailers, to the usual British train build of underfloor powered "cram it in" people carriers.

 

The grand plan to electrify much of the GWR main lines to Bristol and South Wales meant than twentyone nine car EMUs could replace a core of HSTs, with another chunk replaced by bi mode five car units. Theoretically any line of more than 100 mph capability, apart from anything west of Newbury and Bristol would electrified so IETs would cope with that. We all know that it didn't pan out like that so DfT have had to shell out something like £300 million to Hitachi to factory build the EMUs (801s) as bimode 800s, but also to fit increased fuelling capabilities at depots and obviously increased engine servicing too.

 

The trains are very complex particularly compared to the 1970s technologic HSTs and I am guessing the GWR crew beyond Bristol are still getting to grips with them. To describe them as heaps of #### is a little unfair i think because every new class of train needs it's rough edges knocked off, and the users need to get to grips with the faults and failures. I doubt GWR drivers have had any appreciable time in a land based simulator like for example Virgin crews on 390 and Voyager simulators which csn safely throw up all sorts of scenarios.       

[Fat Controller]

I’ve heard that the component in question was in the nose cone and so not damaged by flying ballast or whatever. Still puzzled as to why an air leak should stop the units uncoupling and the good one moving to a location to detrain the passengers.

 

Edit, Ansaldo Breda built trains http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20130531_00605855?pid=2512986

They built the first-generation HGV shuttles for Eurotunnel. Prior to that, they had been building trains for Italian Railways for many years. I did hear, though, that Hitachi weren't after their rolling-stock capabilities when they bought them, but their signalling expertise (CSEE in France and Union Switch and Signal)

[scottishlocos]

All

 

Did lack of air mean a rescue loco was no use in this situation or was it lack of rescue loco

Shouldn't need Thunderbird locos with new trains but would be sensible to have one stabled half way

[Talltim]

All

 

Did lack of air mean a rescue loco was no use in this situation or was it lack of rescue loco

Shouldn't need Thunderbird locos with new trains but would be sensible to have one stabled half way

It was coupled to another unit, which in theory should have been able to move it DIT in worst case, but software issues meant that it too decided to sit down. Maybe a 'dumb' loco, coupled but not electrically linked,would have worked better....

Edited September 18, 2018 by Talltim

[jonny777]

It's probably much like what could have been said when the HSTs displaced the Westerns, or when the Deltics took over from Gresley's pacifics.

 

Jim

 

 

Yes, but back in those days there were plenty of powerful locomotives around to whisk the passengers up north, as if nothing had happened.... 

 

 

http://www.time-capsules.co.uk/picture/show/3353/Brush-with-Deltic

 

....or maybe not, in this case. 

[brianusa]

Yes, but back in those days there were plenty of powerful locomotives around to whisk the passengers up north, as if nothing had happened.... 

 

 

http://www.time-capsules.co.uk/picture/show/3353/Brush-with-Deltic

 

....or maybe not, in this case. 

 

How many time have we heard this before?  Or similar; in todays railways there never seems to be enough to cover for emergencies, no extra carriages even if they could be attached, Thunderbirds must travel miles and as been mentioned before, "The DfT made such a meal of the HST replacement programme that I suspect most people just lost the will. The requirement morphed from literally a HST mk2 with diesel power cars each end of trailers, to the usual British train build of underfloor powered "cram it in" people carriers."  In other words, the same old thing!.  Now we find out that the new trains and curved platforms aren't always compatible and are sometime too short or the trains too long.  Surely all this should have been thought about as well as the uncomfortable seating which have raised complaints.  There was very little complaint about the HSTs during their life span which fortunately continues.

 

Brian.

[Glorious NSE]

The requirement morphed from literally a HST mk2 with diesel power cars each end of trailers, to the usual British train build of underfloor powered "cram it in" people carriers."  In other words, the same old thing!.  

 

 

A 9 or 10 car formation of these has substantially more seats than a 2+8 HST, it doesn't waste two car lengths on engines for a start - and whilst they are a long way from perfect, none of the seating in these is "Crammed in" - leg room is substantially better than GWR's HST sets in standard.

 

 

 

 

Now we find out that the new trains and curved platforms aren't always compatible and are sometime too short or the trains too long.  Surely all this should have been thought about as well as the uncomfortable seating which have raised complaints.  There was very little complaint about the HSTs during their life span which fortunately continues.

This happens every time trains change. If it didn't, all trains would look kinda like a stagecoach bolted to a 4 wheel frame, as that is all that would fit the size of the previous train! 

 

Yes, some trains are longer than platforms, or may need them modifying. I'd be amazed if they didn't have to alter any platforms when HST sets were introduced on the WR - and believe it or not, HSTs are longer than some platforms they call at even today! 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

I am no apologist for Hitachi, nor a defence of what has been delivered to our railways from them, but you really need to consider all the facts.

The DfT made such a meal of the HST replacement programme that I suspect most people just lost the will. The requirement morphed from literally a HST mk2 with diesel power cars each end of trailers, to the usual British train build of underfloor powered "cram it in" people carriers.

 

The grand plan to electrify much of the GWR main lines to Bristol and South Wales meant than twentyone nine car EMUs could replace a core of HSTs, with another chunk replaced by bi mode five car units. Theoretically any line of more than 100 mph capability, apart from anything west of Newbury and Bristol would electrified so IETs would cope with that. We all know that it didn't pan out like that so DfT have had to shell out something like £300 million to Hitachi to factory build the EMUs (801s) as bimode 800s, but also to fit increased fuelling capabilities at depots and obviously increased engine servicing too.

 

The trains are very complex particularly compared to the 1970s technologic HSTs and I am guessing the GWR crew beyond Bristol are still getting to grips with them. To describe them as heaps of #### is a little unfair i think because every new class of train needs it's rough edges knocked off, and the users need to get to grips with the faults and failures. I doubt GWR drivers have had any appreciable time in a land based simulator like for example Virgin crews on 390 and Voyager simulators which csn safely throw up all sorts of scenarios.       

OK so I should have said piles of poo and just at the moment, but we all know that piles of poo can often end up as fertile ground! I also accept, of course, that they are techno advanced compared to older stuff. However, do we really need lightweight super techno when perhaps something a bit more solid with less fancy gear might be easier to deal with? I don't know really as I know nothing about this sort of modern thing, but the ones I've seen at close quarters at 36E on a regular basis look fairly fragile to me with loads of stuff on the outside that looks really vulnerable to 'accidental' damage or 'tampering' and the body work looks like the metal used on drinks cans. The cabs are like the SS Enterprise and I'm sure will be sooooo comfy, but these are trains that need to take a battering, not aircraft for luxurious long haul and I think these 800s are going to have to do a lot of proving of their worth before I'm convinced.

Phil

[Zomboid]

They'll get into the good bit of the reliability bathtub curve on due course. That's just how things are with new trains. And the reliability of HSTs and 91 sets isn't especially good in the context of the modern railway - and they both had their own issues at this stage of their service life.