Model Loco Ltd Armstrong-Whitworth LMS Black 5

[ianLMS]

Next up on the workbench is a part-built Model Loco Ltd Armstrong-Whitworth LMS Black 5 purchased at a reasonable price from Ebay. My understanding is that these were originally made by/for DJH and are of similar quality. Not entirely sure though.

 

The previous owner got most of the way through the chassis, tender and started on the body. Luckily for me, the motion gear is assembled and seems to be working quite well in manual model.

 

The kit has come with a rather large cylindrical motor (possibly the original Portescap, but not sure). I also have a Canon 1620 and a Mitsumi 1620 motors as well, so it all depends on which fits/works best and what gearbox arrangement I will have. None of that side of it has been assembled yet, so we will see.

 

My preference is to run all insulated wheels so have ordered a new set from Markits. Not sure the make of the original wheelset but they have the square axle holes so might be old Romfords.

 

As before, if anyone has any hints or tips, please let me know. It will be a while before I start on the build as I might decide to set up a production line for several Parkside kits I have in the "to-do" box.

Edited September 17, 2018 by ianLMS

[Horsetan]

….The kit has come with a rather large cylindrical motor (possibly the original Portescap, but not sure). ….

 

If it hasn't got a bevel-and-spur gearbox attached, then it won't be the original RG4. Your eBay photo is tiny, but I can just about make out that the motor is on its own with no geartrain.

[ianLMS]

I am sure the advert showed the word portescap scrubbed out so i'm doubtful it is the original motor. The 1620 i have should work ok

[Barry O]

These are fairly easy to build. Changing the wheels is a good idea as the flanges are smaller on the newer wheels. Good idea to change the motor aas Horsetan says it isn't the original portescap. The one I have has the portescap fitted and I need to take it apart and see if I can get it to run without a squeal.

Baz

[ianLMS]

I am now in the process of building the Model Loco Ltd/DJH Armstrong-Whitworth Black 5 and as mentioned above, it was purchased off Ebay and the previous owner had part assembled some the body and most of the chassis. However, the body was glued together with Epoxy and copious amounts of superglue rather than solder.

 

There were a few gaps here and there and as I prefer to solder things anyway I took it apart. I removed the cab and dismantled it completely, including steps, floor, backhead, sides, roof and fittings. I removed the boiIer assembly from the footplate but left the smokebox/boiler/firebox glue together as it was a neat join and I would probably do more damage than good.

 

The only detailing items he had fitted were the chimney and dome so I left them in place.

 

For the chassis, he had built everything including the motion gear and connecting rods. It was perfectly smooth. However, it looks like he forgot to put the gearbox/motor in before soldering all of the crankpins up.........so, I have had to undo all of his lovely work and it will probably never go back as well as it was!

 

I am currently putting together a Comet gearbox with 38:1 ratio extender and Mashima 1620 motor to run off the centre axle. Hopefully I will be able to re-assemble the motion gear and connecting rods so it runs as smoothly as it did!!

 

Since dismantling everything, I have re-soldered the cab, firebox/boiler and added all of the other details such as sand-fillers, handrails, exhaust valves etc. I am waiting for Wizard to send me some lubricators as these were missing from the box and then I can add the piping and other details

[mark axlecounter]

I made a spanner type tool for Just that job. It was made by bending some steel rod 90* and filed the end to the same as a Romford screwdriver If I get chance I will put a pic of it on here ,

 

Mark

[Barry O]

The kit was made by DJH but has some improvements over the DJH kit. Looks good . Black with red lining I presume?

Baz

[ianLMS]

Will definaltey be Black!! I will try to apply red lining, but my previous attempts havent gone well (see Craftsman 0-4-4T build and Modified Railroad Patriot). I have a bow pen and I have the Pressfix lining set so will see what I can do.

 

I built the Comet gearbox with extender last night, fitted it to the chassis, put the wheels and connecting rods back together and temporarily tacked the outer rod with solder (not sure of the technical terms for these parts). Tested at every stage and conecting the motor directly to the analogue controller, everything ran perfectly in both directions. 

 

I will post a pick of the connecting rods/motion gear over Christmas to see if it looks correctly fitted. I compared it to various photographs and I think its in the right position on both sides. It certainly runs smooth!

 

Next challenge is to remove the all the Motor/gearbox/wheels/axles/motion gear etc so I can paint the chassis, fit the brake gear and re-assemble! I can then fit the pick ups, test, then convert to DCC with a Zimo chip.

 

Compared to the other kits I have built (Cotswold, Craftsman, SE Finecast) the quality of the castings and detail on this one is definately superior. Not sure if Model Loco built any other LMS kits! 

Edited December 18, 2018 by ianLMS

[ikks]

Will definaltey be Black!! I will try to apply red lining, but my previous attempts havent gone well (see Craftsman 0-4-4T build and Modified Railroad Patriot). I have a bow pen and I have the Pressfix lining set so will see what I can do.

 

I built the Comet gearbox with extender last night, fitted it to the chassis, put the wheels and connecting rods back together and temporarily tacked the outer rod with solder (not sure of the technical terms for these parts). Tested at every stage and conecting the motor directly to the analogue controller, everything ran perfectly in both directions. 

 

I will post a pick of the connecting rods/motion gear over Christmas to see if it looks correctly fitted. I compared it to various photographs and I think its in the right position on both sides. It certainly runs smooth!

 

Next challenge is to remove the all the Motor/gearbox/wheels/axles/motion gear etc so I can paint the chassis, fit the brake gear and re-assemble! I can then fit the pick ups, test, then convert to DCC with a Zimo chip.

 

Compared to the other kits I have built (Cotswold, Craftsman, SE Finecast) the quality of the castings and detail on this one is definately superior. Not sure if Model Loco built any other LMS kits! 

Yes they produced a Duchess

[ianLMS]

Yes they produced a Duchess

A little on the big side for my layout, but might be nice in a display cabinet! I will have to look out for one.

[ianLMS]

Its been a busy few weeks recently with visiting inlaw's in Ireland, entertaining family in the UK and generally enjoying the festivities, but, I managed to find time to do a fair bit of modelling as well, which was good.

 

I stripped the chassis completely down, including removing all of the motion gear so I could paint the chassis, cleaned everything up including the body and tender and primed them. I used an etch primer first, then aerosol Double Acrylic Matt Black on the chassis, but used Humbrol Matt Black on the body and tender. I am waiting for some Humbrol Satin to arrive to finish the boiler and tender off.

 

I re-assembled the chassis, swapped the wheels for newer, insulated Romford's and changed the crankpins to the super-deluxe version (the plain type snapped off in the old wheels so could't re-use them).

 

After lots of jiggling about, I am struggling to get the wheels/coupling rods/motion gear to run smoothly. I spent 4 hours last night removing everything, re-assembling and trying to find our where the problem lies. No luck! It runs fine for 20-30 secs, then jams up solid. Gearbox runs fine with the axle dissengaged so I know its not that. When rotating the rear two axles by hand, it jams up. When rotating using the front axle, it doesnt. The gearbox runs off the centre axle. 

 

I am guessing that the coupling rods were set nicely for the plain crankpins, but now I am using Deluxe threaded type, they dont like it. I have checked the coupling rods and there is lots of play which could be the problem. It ran better when no crank nuts were used, but again, after a little while it jammed up. I have checked to make sure nothing is catching each other and casuing the jam, so it must be alignment. I know the axles are nice and square as it ran perfectly until I stripped everything down to paint.

 

I will have another go tonight. I have spare crankpins and a set of Black 5 couping rods from an old Comet chassis kit so might try that and go very slowly when opening out the holes. The instructions mentioned using spacers on the crankpins but I dont recall removing any when I stripped it down and I can only find two spacers of differing thickness. Should there be spacers to align the rods I wonder??

[mark axlecounter]

The new wheels might be different to the old type.

Have you tried to open out the holes so it just fits or is there a slight bit of movement

[ianLMS]

Well, you will all be pleased to know that I resolved the isue last night. I completely stripped everything down, opened up the holes a tad in the rods, and re-assembled, testing each rod by hand turning the axles as I went. During this process I noted that the front axle was binding ever so slightly and had virtually no side play, so I removed the axle and spacing washers, reamed the bearings a tiny touch and re-assembled without the washers. Once everything was tightened up, everything ran super smooth forward and reverse. I then attached the reverse cranks and re-tested. All good.

 

I put on the first coat of Satin Black last night and will add the wheels, pick-ups, brake gear, tools and coal to the tender and add crew, pick-ups, buffers, DCC chip etc to the loco which I will do before I put the 2nd/3rd top coat and line/add transfers. 

 

I will take some progress photo's once the masking tape is removed!

 

Ian

[ianLMS]

Here are a couple of pics showing progress so far. I have fitted pick-ups to the tender and driving wheels, DCC'd it and tested it. A little rough at the moment, but from previous experience a tweeking of the pick-ups should sort it out.

 

Once the running is sorted I will them move on to numbering and lining the loco and adding the lettering to the tender, plus the buffers and additional detail, then its ready for weathering.

 

The motor/chip and wiring is a very tight fit in the body so a little adjustment is needed there as well. 

 

 

[ianLMS]

Progressed a little more over the weekend with the Black 5. 

 

Finished painting the buffer beam, added coupling hooks and the buffers, painted the backhead and fitted crew, and glued the tools in the tender tool compartment. 

 

After fitting the body/chassis and running tests, everything binded up again. So, after more fettling with the connecting rods, I came to the conclusion that the holes are reamed out too much and its causing more issues than fixing them. I happen to have a spare set of Black 5 connecting rods on a spare chassis I got from Ebay. The rods fitted perfectly and I very, very gently opened the rod holes up to fit the Romford crankpin nuts. The rods on this are fixed, as oppose to the previous ones which were split.

 

Hey presto - much, much better running.

 

Now, for the other issue - In forward only, the loco shoots off like a rocket. I mean it wheels spins and sets off at top speed instantly regardless of throttle setting or CV adjustments. In reverse it works perfect and really smooth. I posted the issue in the DCC Questions section and the response is suggesting a short somewhere on the loco. A little more investigation is required, but I am pretty sure it will be reslolved later this week!

[ianLMS]

It appears the issue was a fried decoder, probably caused by a short somewhere. I re-adjusted all the pick-ups, brake gear etc and replaced the chip with a cheap gaugemaster one. It no longer shoots off, but I need to re-visit the pick-ups as it definately is not running as smooth as it was.

 

The one issue I seem to have with all my kits is getting the pick-ups right. I use 0.33 phospher bronze wire on copper clad board suitably glued and bend the wires so they sit on the inside of the wheel.Works fine in analogue, but not in DCC.

 

More practice, trial and error I guess until I get it right!

 

Ian

[Barry O]

Ian

 

if it isn't working for dcc then there is something wrong. Have you got a dc controller which detects shorts?  

 

A number of kit built locos I have fitted with DCC Sound for Carlisle appeared to work well on dc but ..after checking them out I found odd bits of varnish on loco pick ups and wheel backs, pick ups which "sort of " touch wheels and pickups which can momentarily short onto brake blocks.  I now try running locos ..in the dark..on dc to see any sparks and flashes!

 

When you are ready to try the dcc chip.. feed it first from a set of wander leads before attaching it to the pick ups. Just means there is one less area to try and fault find on.

 

Baz

[ianLMS]

Thank you Barry.

 

I have found in the past the loco's work well on DC, but for some reason just dont when I connect the chip. I will be taking another look at the pick-ups over the next few days and test as you suggest.  

 

I believe the issue is potentially down to the tension in the pick-up wire arrangement. Either too much whcih makes the wheels bind, or not enough so they are ineffective. 

 

I have seen several different ways of doing pick-ups so will try them out until I find a set up that works and looks neat. 

 

The set up on my Jinty works really well (PB strip on top of the wheel tyres) but it wont look too good on a tendor loco. I have seen the type which fold over the top of the frame and sit on the back of the wheel which I quite like the look of, so might try that. 

[ianLMS]

I spent a good few hours last night removing the pick-ups and trying out different methods. The one that seemed to work the best was copper clad strip glued to the inside of the top of the frame with phospher bronze strip coming over the top and dropping down behind the wheel. I was able to get pick-ups on 4 driving wheels and preliminary tests showed that this to be ok. I am also re-working the pick ups on the tender which we probably be over the weekend.

 

My Zimo MX623 decoders turned up yesterday so I was able to carry out some more tests. After checking the pick-ups worked well via my analogue controller I fitted the gaugemaster chip back on. It repsonded well, still not brilliant though. I then plugged in the old Zimo chip, and again, it whizzed off like the Starship Enterprise at Warp speed! I then tried the new Zimo chip and everything returned to normal and ran fine.

 

I am reluctant to line and add transfers until I am happy with the running so I wont mess them up taking the body on/off and handling it all the time. 

[ianLMS]

Latest update: The MX623 chip has been working perfectly, however, I was having issues with the tender, tender connection, bogie and pick ups shorting out.

 

I took off the retaining plate which double as the brake rods on the tender and noted that the pick-ups were shorting out on the chassis/brakes. I also noted that due to the way the axles sat in the chassis, they tended to drag a little. After opening the recess out for the wheels, they rattled around far to much and still werent running smoothly. I ordered a length of 2.5mm I/D brass tube (3mm O/D) and cut short lengths which the axles would sit in. I pushed these into the recess and the axles now run really smooth and have sufficient sideplay to move nicely around the tight curves. After moving the brake gear and pick ups slightly, I managed to resolve the tender shorting issue.

 

I have connected the tender, using the Mr Wright method which involved forming a .45mm brass rod loop on the tender with a small screw as a hook on the footplate. This works well, and allows adjustment so it can go around tight curves without a huge gap.

 

The front bogie is next and I still havent resolved the derailing issue when navigating tight radius curves. I am sure its down to how the arm is set up and some form of springing to keep it on the track.  I am also getting shorts on the tighter curves.

 

It could be that this type of kit loco is just not suitable for less than 30"- 36" radius curves. I have one curve as tight as 20". Rather than compromise the model/chassis etc just to fit the layout, I would rather finish the loco to a good standard, put it in a display case and wait until I build a new layout which I am planning to do in the future which will have very slight curves and will probably be an end-to-end arrangement. I have suffient number of smaller loco's and R-T-R to use on Jencaster which will go around the curves so I wont be too worried.

 

I intend to line/apply transfer once I have sorted the bogie issue so will hopefully have more pics after the weekend.

[Buhar]

Would some further insulation help?  Sleeves on the pickups, tissue paper smeared with araldite around the frames near the bogie for example.  We know DCC is less forgiving than analogue of momentary shorts so such measures are necessary if there's a lot of metal near electrical flows.

[ianLMS]

Thanks Buhar. Great suggestions. I will have to take a look and see what i can do to insulate the potential shorts.

[Barry O]

These kits were not really designed for 20" radius curves. Take the bogie off and see it will get round the curve without shorting or binding.

If it is ok then you may have to change the bogie pivoting arrangement.

 

Baz

[ianLMS]

I removed the front brakes and it seems to run well now around the outer track where the radius is a little less tight and I no longer have the shorting issue. I will see what I can do to create a larger gap between the brakes and the front bogie and insulate them.

I lined and numbered the loco over the weekend. Better job than I have done before, but still not great though!  I little annoyed that some micro-sol I used on the water-slide tranfers reacted with the Pressfix, but I am sure I can clean it off, just ran out of time.

 

I also managed to load the tender with real coal.

 

Once I have cleaned it up, I will weather it and put it into service.

 

In summary, I have been extremely pleased with the kit, how it went together, build quality and would definately try another!

 

Ian

Edited January 28, 2019 by ianLMS

[mark axlecounter]

That looks smart now Ian well done. 

You can have a go at one of theses lol 

I was given them from a very good friend. 

I have my work cut out now