Hornby Discount Limits

[adb968008]

.

Edited November 6, 2018 by adb968008

[dogbox321]

I think there is a rather large "Assumption" being made by Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan and Dapol - that people are prepared to pay their SRP, minus the 10-15%.

 

There are already bargains to be had in the marketplace if you know where to look, and with an ever increasing amount of products coming from other suppliers, aren't sales from the "Big 4" going to decline in the long term in anycase, without actually trying to put customers off?  Plus, add to this of course, many of their products are re-liveries, whilst the "new comers" are  producing new models.....

 

Regards,

 

C.

[robmcg]

I think there is a rather large "Assumption" being made by Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan and Dapol - that people are prepared to pay their SRP, minus the 10-15%.

 

There are already bargains to be had in the marketplace if you know where to look, and with an ever increasing amount of products coming from other suppliers, aren't sales from the "Big 4" going to decline in the long term in anycase, without actually trying to put customers off?  Plus, add to this of course, many of their products are re-liveries, whilst the "new comers" are  producing new models.....

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

While buying habits are changing, with web-searches and the ease of finding bargains, I think the profitability of production by the big four will depend on the size of production runs.   People buy a model they like, not necessarily the cheapest.

 

The big four are able to produce brilliant models, they have the skills, other suppliers may fill niche markets but they all depend on the many and various skills necessary to market a model, thus I think it is really just a matter of overheads, costs, and having a desirable product for sale.  The big four set their prices to make a profit, I don't see many other companies rushing into what is probably a slowly diminishing trade, which I hasten to add, will not die completely, and in fact remains quite large..

[Ian Hargrave]

I think there is a rather large "Assumption" being made by Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan and Dapol - that people are prepared to pay their SRP, minus the 10-15%.

 

There are already bargains to be had in the marketplace if you know where to look, and with an ever increasing amount of products coming from other suppliers, aren't sales from the "Big 4" going to decline in the long term in anycase, without actually trying to put customers off?  Plus, add to this of course, many of their products are re-liveries, whilst the "new comers" are  producing new models.....

 

Regards,

 

C.

So then whither do we progress from here ? I personally do not get 'an ever increasing amount of products ' . Where's that and when can we expect it ? Some newcomers have been around for quite a few years but we're still awaiting their enlivening of the market.on a larger scale .Things however are changing with a resurgence of specialist ,narrowly focussed outfits such as Accurascale in OO and Revolution Trains in N scale but these are business models flexing their muscles and slowly testing the waters with the skill,knowledge and capability to adapt to market forces.Here's a reason for optimism if there ever was .

 

Not happening in mainstream is it ? Meantime we have to accept what is profitable ( note the word ) for Hornby,Bachmann,Dapol etc.must essentially be at the forefront of their thinking.I really do not,believe we're missing out to any extent.

[dogbox321]

So then whither do we progress from here ? I personally do not get 'an ever increasing amount of products ' . Where's that and when can we expect it ? Some newcomers have been around for quite a few years but we're still awaiting their enlivening of the market.on a larger scale .Things however are changing with a resurgence of specialist ,narrowly focussed outfits such as Accurascale in OO and Revolution Trains in N scale but these are business models flexing their muscles and slowly testing the waters with the skill,knowledge and capability to adapt to market forces.Here's a reason for optimism if there ever was .

 

Not happening in mainstream is it ? Meantime we have to accept what is profitable ( note the word ) for Hornby,Bachmann,Dapol etc.must essentially be at the forefront of their thinking.I really do not,believe we're missing out to any extent.

 

Glad you have decided to join us.  

 

In "OO" gauge a few things off the top of my head, to compete with the "Big 4".......

HUO's, PRA's, D6xx's, Bullied Diesels, LNER Dynomoeter, Cemflows, PGA's, TEA's, Class 156, Sterling Single, Class 66, Belihack Snowploughs, RHTT, P Class and Hunslet Barclay Steam Locos, Class 142 new tool to follow, IZA Cargowaggons, LNER Tram engine (aka "Toby"), 2 other steam locos for Model Tails, plus BBA's recently announced. (Nevermind APT-P and Class 92's....)

 

Many manufacturers also make announcements at Warley, so heaven knows what else, will get announced there.   Plus Revolution are due to make an announcement in "OO", once the TEA's are dispatched.

 

Unless we all win the lottery, people are having to be more selective on what they purchase.  The industry is very "boyant" and many of the new manufacturers are producing excellent models, which are as good, if not better than many products of the "big 4".  

 

May I be the first to welcome you back to model railways...... (Oh and just incase you weren't aware, Mainline Railways and Hornby Dublo have ceased production)

[Ian Hargrave]

Glad you have decided to join us.

 

In "OO" gauge a few things off the top of my head, to compete with the "Big 4".......

HUO's, PRA's, D6xx's, Bullied Diesels, LNER Dynomoeter, Cemflows, PGA's, TEA's, Class 156, Sterling Single, Class 66, Belihack Snowploughs, RHTT, P Class and Hunslet Barclay Steam Locos, Class 142 new tool to follow, IZA Cargowaggons, LNER Tram engine (aka "Toby"), 2 other steam locos for Model Tails, plus BBA's recently announced. (Nevermind APT-P and Class 92's....)

 

Many manufacturers also make announcements at Warley, so heaven knows what else, will get announced there. Plus Revolution are due to make an announcement in "OO", once the TEA's are dispatched.

 

Unless we all win the lottery, people are having to be more selective on what they purchase. The industry is very "boyant" and many of the new manufacturers are producing excellent models, which are as good, if not better than many products of the "big 4".

 

May I be the first to welcome you back to model railways...... (Oh and just incase you weren't aware, Mainline Railways and Hornby Dublo have ceased production)

What on earth are you talking about ?

Edited October 8, 2018 by Ian Hargrave

[JSpencer]

Glad you have decided to join us.  

 

In "OO" gauge a few things off the top of my head, to compete with the "Big 4".......

HUO's, PRA's, D6xx's, Bullied Diesels, LNER Dynomoeter, Cemflows, PGA's, TEA's, Class 156, Sterling Single, Class 66, Belihack Snowploughs, RHTT, P Class and Hunslet Barclay Steam Locos, Class 142 new tool to follow, IZA Cargowaggons, LNER Tram engine (aka "Toby"), 2 other steam locos for Model Tails, plus BBA's recently announced. (Nevermind APT-P and Class 92's....)

 

Many manufacturers also make announcements at Warley, so heaven knows what else, will get announced there.   Plus Revolution are due to make an announcement in "OO", once the TEA's are dispatched.

 

Unless we all win the lottery, people are having to be more selective on what they purchase.  The industry is very "boyant" and many of the new manufacturers are producing excellent models, which are as good, if not better than many products of the "big 4".  

 

May I be the first to welcome you back to model railways...... (Oh and just incase you weren't aware, Mainline Railways and Hornby Dublo have ceased production)

 

With respect, I do believe Ian has been around a lot longer on this forum than you have (5700+ posts vs your 256) and I do not remember seeing him leaving the hobby over the past 10 years at least.

 

It is debatable as to whether the market is still buoyant or becoming saturated. Agree no one is going to buy everything and most will focus on what is essential for them (that Toby does look nice though, how can I fit one in????).

[The Stationmaster]

With respect, I do believe Ian has been around a lot longer on this forum than you have (5700+ posts vs your 256) and I do not remember seeing him leaving the hobby over the past 10 years at least.

 

It is debatable as to whether the market is still buoyant or becoming saturated. Agree no one is going to buy everything and most will focus on what is essential for them (that Toby does look nice though, how can I fit one in????).

 

There's no doubt in my mind that some market areas have definitely become sated (rather than saturated) with demand for particular genres or types of loco etc being less than the numbers finally produced over a couple of years. (Hornby seemingly being the main company getting it wrong).  Overall the market probably is saturated in some respects particularly when it comes to optional/'nice to have' purchases where there are more models chasing either the same size of market or maybe a slightly contracted one and of course the rise in prices has increased that effect.  But in other ways the market probably isn't anything like either saturated or sated but that depends very much on manufacturers and commissioners producing the 'right' things - especially things which are not unduly price sensitive and can still show a profit, albeit not a wonderful one but probably better than putting the money in a bank deposit account.

 

Overall no doubt at all that the market has changed and no doubt in my mind that the innovators and those who are fleet of foot in meeting or creating demand can keep going even if prices are, or are perceived to be, higher.  But as ever my concern for Hornby is that since the most recent change of regime it seems to have lost that fleetness of foot and immediacy to the end consumer, i.e. us, which it had been developing and it has taken various backward steps in marketing in particular.   I don't believe the ending of fire sales or a curb on discounting are a bad thing when it comes to protecting the brand and helping smaller retailers but in other areas it has stepped backwards into an earlier era when competition was very different and the market was even more different from today.

[dogbox321]

With respect, I do believe Ian has been around a lot longer on this forum than you have (5700+ posts vs your 256) and I do not remember seeing him leaving the hobby over the past 10 years at least.

 

It is debatable as to whether the market is still buoyant or becoming saturated. Agree no one is going to buy everything and most will focus on what is essential for them (that Toby does look nice though, how can I fit one in????).

 

Sorry, but I made comments based upon where the market is heading.  I were not the one, making remarks like "well its not happening main stream is it", well how can you make such a comment, unless your totally unaware of at least some of the models I gave.  If Hattons, Rapido, Accurascale, are  not "mainstream" and they all have stalls at Warley in 2018, then what is mainstream?  FTSE 100?   Don't get any relevance of 5700 posts, particularly if they are all as well founded as the one that was posted in response to mine.  

 

Regards Para 2 - Thats what I were saying.  But doesn't get the "ever increasing amount of models" - well, based on my list I'd say you can miss the amount of models coming out.....

 

Happy Modelling

[newbryford]

Looks like Pecketts are defying the RPM discount limits on ebay already...

HSTs too.. 3 available..

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R3685-GWR-Class-43-HST-Meningitis-Trust-Support-for-Life-Train-Pack/292758693269?hash=item4429c72595:g:yyoAAOSwfvlbt7kW

 

The restriction lasted all but 2 weeks..

 

Free postage too.

 

 

The limits are supposed to come into effect in January/with the 2019 announcements and does not apply to current items.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... with an ever increasing amount of products coming from other suppliers, aren't sales from the "Big 4" going to decline in the long term in anycase, without actually trying to put customers off?  Plus, add to this of course, many of their products are re-liveries, whilst the "new comers" are  producing new models...

If for simplicity we only consider OO , then plainly enough there has been a steady increase in the number of manufacturers and commissioners actively bringing product to market since whatever year it was that Dapol resumed OO introductions. So there's a growth in that particular choice for the customers for these products. Without doubt there has also been a very significant expansion in the choice of subjects placed before those customers, in part due to the activity of the newer entrants, and some reaction from the longer established players.

 

What I don't know is whether the customer's purchasing habits have significantly altered in response. It is not necessarily the case that established players will see a decline in sales (by volume/value/profitability, however you care to measure it). A market can be stimulated by the existence of additional product choice. Customers previously planning a fairly minor project might change tack because the expanding choice makes it possible to do something they long dreamed of but thought unobtainable. An established player in this scenario might see their percentage market share fall, but the value of their sales increase. (Hornby wouldn't have had a single sale from me over the past eighteen years had not Bachmann cranked out a good range of BR standard wagons and coaches from 1999. That made possible a model of something previously out of reach and diverted me from an HO project, and by value I reckon Hornby got nearly half the resulting spend on RTR, and they have had significantly more of my cash than Bach these last two years.)

 

 

...my concern for Hornby is that since the most recent change of regime it seems to have lost that fleetness of foot and immediacy to the end consumer, i.e. us, which it had been developing and it has taken various backward steps in marketing in particular...

Given the financial gamble Hornby have taken, my guess is that the design team who were previously contributing heavily to the superior communication are now so committed to urgent product development that communication is taking a back seat. Whether they have made the right trade there we have to wait and see.

[Ravenser]

Glad you have decided to join us.  

 

In "OO" gauge a few things off the top of my head, to compete with the "Big 4".......

HUO's, PRA's, D6xx's, Bullied Diesels, LNER Dynomoeter, Cemflows, PGA's, TEA's, Class 156, Sterling Single, Class 66, Belihack Snowploughs, RHTT, P Class and Hunslet Barclay Steam Locos, Class 142 new tool to follow, IZA Cargowaggons, LNER Tram engine (aka "Toby"), 2 other steam locos for Model Tails, plus BBA's recently announced. (Nevermind APT-P and Class 92's....)

 

Many manufacturers also make announcements at Warley, so heaven knows what else, will get announced there.   Plus Revolution are due to make an announcement in "OO", once the TEA's are dispatched.

 

Unless we all win the lottery, people are having to be more selective on what they purchase.  The industry is very "boyant" and many of the new manufacturers are producing excellent models, which are as good, if not better than many products of the "big 4".  

 

May I be the first to welcome you back to model railways...... (Oh and just incase you weren't aware, Mainline Railways and Hornby Dublo have ceased production)

 

I don't think the tone here was quite right, and the presentation of the list is a touch misleading

 

We've been waiting 8 years - and counting - for the D6xxx. I'm really not holding my breath in expectation of seeing an APT-P or a new 92. The sum total of either of the big 2's annual announcements we come close to the accumulated total of all the commissioners and niche companies over several years, which is what you've listed.

 

On the other hand, Oxford Rail is not likely to develop much more now Oxford is part owned by Hornby

 

Dapol have more or less stopped developing new OO (though they are still knocking out the old Hornby Dublo wagons...)

 

And Heljan haven't really announced very much over the last few years.

 

So no, there isn't really more "non-big 2 " stuff being announced than there was 5 years ago. And you only have to take a look at the Oxford Dean Goods and Hattons 14xx threads to discover that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side of the fence . (Some comments in those threads also suggest that the Hornby 71 had a distinct edge on the DJM version)

 

Furthermore some of the models you list  - like the Stirling single and LNER Dynometer car - are very much premium products at premium prices , and certainly don't justify your suggestion that the new entrants are undercutting Hornby, Bachmann and the rest. We wait to see what improvement a Hattons 66 might offer over the well-regarded Bachmann model, and at what price premium - "Upgraded" RTR diesels have not always been met with acclaim, and the Hattons King did not proceed...

 

It's slightly shocking to realise that I've been reading these kind of "megaphone negotiation" postings on the internet demanding that the manufacturers produce better models at lower prices for two decades now. In which time the price of RTR has continued to march slowly uphill. Over the last 10 years the range of things currently available has started to thin a little, rather than widen

[sawyermodels]

The limits are supposed to come into effect in January/with the 2019 announcements and does not apply to current items.

Actually the limits came in to effect from September 14th 2018, the day all retailers got the official letter. All new items from that date have the 10% discount rule.

[newbryford]

Actually the limits came in to effect from September 14th 2018, the day all retailers got the official letter. All new items from that date have the 10% discount rule.

 

I mis-interpreted post#177 then.....

 

Cheers,

Mick

[JSpencer]

If for

Given the financial gamble Hornby have taken, my guess is that the design team who were previously contributing heavily to the superior communication are now so committed to urgent product development that communication is taking a back seat. Whether they have made the right trade there we have to wait and see.

My problem with Hornby at the moment is waiting for them to get the new products out. New products that have been developed and just waiting for production slots.

Of course maybe shop pre orders did not merit the original amounts they intended to produce leading to a delay in slots (you don,t want to sit on yet more stock when you already sitting on too much old stock).

But delays and/or smaller runs = increased unit price.

 

Hornby may have lost a chunk of the market this year and/or maybe the market is receding, but in this market, that is something which can quickly change with the right product and the right sales strategy. They can choose very good subjects, but the sales side needs a bit of work.

 

It is clear from some niche players that high end, high detail stuff can sell but there are people out whom don,t want, cannot afford that but equally don,t want Railroad either. However attempts to do something midway seems to result in a model midway in details but high end in cost so far. The Bachmann Brighton Atlantic seems to have cost saving features but did not really save cost, we see their next models are heading High end only too - this leaves only Hornby for entrants, but the question is, are there any new entrants out there?

[JSpencer]

Sorry,  Don't get any relevance of 5700 posts, particularly if they are all as well founded as the one that was posted in response to mine.  

 

 

Hi, The last phrase directed at another poster from your previous post stated this:

Quote

May I be the first to welcome you back to model railways...... (Oh and just incase you weren't aware, Mainline Railways and Hornby Dublo have ceased production)

End Quote

 

The said person has not just returned to the hobby. He produces some dam good items, a long standing member of the rmweb as his 5700+ posts testify. I therefore found that statement seriously out of place. He is probably more in the know than you realise, you may disagree with him, but please don,t dismiss him so easily.

[The Stationmaster]

My problem with Hornby at the moment is waiting for them to get the new products out. New products that have been developed and just waiting for production slots.

Of course maybe shop pre orders did not merit the original amounts they intended to produce leading to a delay in slots (you don,t want to sit on yet more stock when you already sitting on too much old stock).

But delays and/or smaller runs = increased unit price.

 

Hornby may have lost a chunk of the market this year and/or maybe the market is receding, but in this market, that is something which can quickly change with the right product and the right sales strategy. They can choose very good subjects, but the sales side needs a bit of work.

 

It is clear from some niche players that high end, high detail stuff can sell but there are people out whom don,t want, cannot afford that but equally don,t want Railroad either. However attempts to do something midway seems to result in a model midway in details but high end in cost so far. The Bachmann Brighton Atlantic seems to have cost saving features but did not really save cost, we see their next models are heading High end only too - this leaves only Hornby for entrants, but the question is, are there any new entrants out there?

 

Hornby has definitely lost a chunk of the market this year but as you have said a goodly part of that must be down - as the numbers show - to not having anything, or the right things, to sell.  But hopefully, for Hornby's sake, those who really want what should have been delivered have not in the meanwhile spent their money on something else.  This is where Hornby can miss out because of its lack of immediacy and contact with the end market - if you catch a glimpse of an EP or pre-production model in the background on The Engine Shed's video you know something is coming, at whatever pace, and your interest is retained.  

 

If you hear little or nothing except about long announced models they you might well spend your money with somebody else - it's an area where Hornby's marketing falls flat.  Just look at Accurascale who have very recently posted about announcements they will make at two upcoming shows - that's a way of keeping interest and anticipation going with new things being announced at times when hobby interest will exist and a good launch can get some publicity and customer interest.  Compare that with Hornby's announcement earlier this year of 'an exciting announcement' - which turned out to centre on the reintroduction of various accessories some of which date from the Triang era let alone the Triang-Hornby period - not clever marketing at all and producing more negative reaction in the hobby market than positivity.

[Ian Hargrave]

Accurascale are a good yardstick with which to measure marketing skills...interactive with client group,communicative,up close and personable.Exactly what Hornby for a short while used to be.They still have the personnel with the necessary skills in place to promote and market in the R&D team....which is where it counts surely?

[JSpencer]

Accurascale are a good yardstick with which to measure marketing skills...interactive with client group,communicative,up close and personable.Exactly what Hornby for a short while used to be.They still have the personnel with the necessary skills in place to promote and market in the R&D team....which is where it counts surely?

Accurascale are such a breath of fresh air. I,ll happily pay up front for their items as we know delivery will be imminent, the quality superb and after sales service top notch (if actually needed!). I,ll wait until January to see what else is announced, if nothing much from all players fits in with my needs, I,m sure my Cemflo orders will be expanded further.

Rapido themselves are on a similar level too.

[phil-b259]

 

Dapol have more or less stopped developing new OO (though they are still knocking out the old Hornby Dublo wagons...)

 

 

So the 73s, 68s, 22s, plus the forthcoming GWR mogul & large prarie are all figments of our imagination are they?

 

While its true that Dapol still churn out stuff from very old tooling, in recent years they have invested heavily in new 00 tooling and have every indication this will continue in future.

[adb968008]

So the 73s, 68s, 22s, plus the forthcoming GWR mogul & large prarie are all figments of our imagination are they?

 

While its true that Dapol still churn out stuff from very old tooling, in recent years they have invested heavily in new 00 tooling and have every indication this will continue in future.

You forgot the next batch of 52’s, 121,122, Railcars, Turbot, Bolster E and the Terriers for Rails....oh and a class 59. Then theres the operable signals and digital sound water tower.

 

Not bad for a company Ravensers is suggesting is heading towards exiting the market.

 

I feel Dapol seem to be rather busy, and suspect theres more to come that we dont yet know about.

Personally i think Dapols OO footprint is growing very well, very very well and every time ive come across there team at exhibitions they are overflowing with passion.

Edited October 11, 2018 by adb968008

[Legend]

Their 68 is outstanding. Mind you I did buy from the second batch, once the niggles had got sorted out.

 

I think Dapol are certainly still engaged with OO even though they are into O . Hoping for lots of good things from them , a Mk5 Range to go with the TPE68 for instance

 

It’s what Hornby are up against . Pretty powerful competition out there . They don’t have a full range but pick off items they think will sell, eating into the big boys territory. I think the Hattons 66 is also proving a game changer , what is it 27 variants all available at roughly the same time . It shows how the market has changed

Edited October 11, 2018 by Legend

[GordonC]

You forgot the next batch of 52’s, 121,122, Railcars, Turbot, Bolster E and the Terriers for Rails....oh and a class 59. Then theres the operable signals and digital sound water tower.

 

Not bad for a company Ravensers is suggesting is heading towards exiting the market.

 

I feel Dapol seem to be rather busy, and suspect theres more to come that we dont yet know about.

Personally i think Dapols OO footprint is growing very well, very very well and every time ive come across there team at exhibitions they are overflowing with passion.

 

there's also meant to be the Class 21/29 on the horizon too .... even if that horizon doesn't seem to have gotten much closer over 5 years or so

[Ravenser]

So the 73s, 68s, 22s, plus the forthcoming GWR mogul & large prarie are all figments of our imagination are they?

 

While its true that Dapol still churn out stuff from very old tooling, in recent years they have invested heavily in new 00 tooling and have every indication this will continue in future.

 

 

The 73s, 68s, and 22s were developed and released some time ago . My point was that Dapol have been very quiet in terms of new products for OO in the last few years. The 21/29 was announced in a previous era when Dave Jones was with them, but remains an unfulfilled ambition.  Terriers for Rails  can be seen as part of the same story - they and Heljan seem to have backed away from launching their own new OO products and have retreated into producing for commissioners, where someone else is carrying the commercial risk. You can count the Terrier as Rails' model - or as Dapol's- but you can't count it twice as both...

 

The proposed GWR Mogul and Large Prairie are the only recent announcements from Dapol - and it's worth pointing out that the first images had people who know the prototypes drawing breath, and not positively. This goes with a string of models from various sources which were confidently expected to blow away Hornby and somehow didn't quite - the Bachmann 101, the DJM J94 and 71, the Hattons 14xx and King, the Oxford Dean Goods, the Oxford Radial......

 

I didn't say Dapol were exiting OO , but I do suggest they have settled into a holding pattern , and the business model may be more like that of the Dave Boyle era (ie sell a static range, many of them older toolings) than that of Bachmann and Hornby over the last 15 years. For Dapol the new development seems to be going into N and O , rather than OO

 

Similarly Heljan are now putting their effort in O - where the market expects things to cost a lot of money - rather than OO

 

A lot of people are counting their chickens very confidently before they hatch in the case of the Hattons 66.....

[adb968008]

A lot of people are counting their chickens very confidently before they hatch in the case of the Hattons 66.....

Welcome back to the hobby, the chicken has hatched..

https://youtu.be/nrk-SOHXyyI

 

I’m having a hard time understanding your complaint, other than seeing several that are complaining.