Is there a room for another Mk3 coach range in 00

[ThaneofFife]

Sit down and strap in!

 

Lots of discussion about the new Oxford Rail Mk3a coaches and this has paved the way for obvious comparisons to be discussed over in the Hornby Mk3 thread.  Both models have their plus points.

 

Having now seen the detail and lighting on the superb new Bachmann Mk2f FO coach (DCC On-Board) which must qualify as the best most comprehensive 00 gauge coach now available, pricing as aside, do we think there is room in the 4mm market for another range of Mk3 coaches from Bachmann?  Maybe they already have these coaches in their sights...……….

 

Would this contribute to the apparent killing of the "modelling" aspect of our hobby as the Hornby and Lima Mk3s can be made to look the part with some work - not everybody wants to go down this route but whilst some like to use the term "box openers" I personally prefer to avoid labelling people with that term - each to their own so long as they enjoy their trains.   Fitting a really good dcc lighting system inside that's controllable and flicker free would not be cheap either.

 

You all know that if Bachmann were involved in a Mk3 (both 3a and HST cars) the models would be pretty much perfect judging by the Mk2f model.   They could also offer the same dcc fitted versions as an option but by the time they came to market I hate to say it but would we be looking at a standard range coach hitting the door of £100 retail?   Maybe given that if the timeline was the same as the Mk2f's and DBSO's we wouldn't see a new Mk3 for 4-5 years with 4 or 5 price rises inbetween.  Its a toughy.

 

I love the Lima and Hornby models for their basic shape but we know the areas that let it down.  Hornby would need to refresh or retool and that's unlikely for a few years after the recent changes.

 

The Oxfords - no denying the detail level has gone up a couple of notches to what we are used to however they are let down (IMHO) in a number of other areas that I think will ultimately harm sales at the current prices and could lead to being eventually sent to the bargain bins.   Livery colours are being questioned......under nourished bogies,,,....poor close coupling...….underframe modules incorrectly shaped........no lighting option........amount of body tumblehome in doubt...….no silver window frames etc.

 

Would another Mk3 help or hinder - would you buyt £80-95 a pop if they were up to the standard of the new Mk2f's?

[Gwiwer]

Everyone has their price and there is what economists call marginal utility. The more you have need of something the more you will pay.

 

We now have some superb rtr items available from the vast range of loomotives through coaching stock to the humble swb freight wagons. But quality comes at a price and I too can see the £100 coach already lurking on the horizon.

 

Perhaps this was the original thinking behind Hornby Railroad even if the evolution of that brand differed to the first concept. But for those, including myself, who prefer to run their trains in any condition but ex-box the Railroad stock offers the opportunity to break in, populate, super-detail, finescale and weather as we choose at a more modest price.

 

Is there room in the market for another brand doing a Mk3 range? I have my doubts at the sort of price they would likely command in 2-4 years time allowing for development time starting now. Without whistles and bells probably £60 apiece. Add lighting, passengers, DCC, weathering etc. and probably £85+ each.

 

At that price I have no interest. I have two perfectly good HST sets and have never needed loco-hauled Mk3 stock. I do sometimes purchase “nice to have” items which would never appear on the layout but a Mk3 north of £50 isn’t one of them.

 

Oxford aren’t perfect. But I don’t think there is enough confidence in the market for two majors to go head-to-head over a complete range of coaching stock. They do with Mk1 stock but both ranges existed before prices went into orbit. Would Hornby have launched against Bachmann today? No.

[Covkid]

Have to agree with "Gwiwer".

 

Bachmann would undoubtedly produce a Mk3 of superb quality - probably higher than that of Oxford. But would it really be profitable ?  I have my doubts. 

But then look at the "new" Hornby Mk1s. Many people wondered whether they would sell, in view of the established competition, and I have no idea, except I guess Hornby got their figures right, produced them, including the two "missing" designs including the BSO.  But in this case Hornby were actually updating their own product line, and I guess the Mk1 is possibly one of the most popular / widespread coaches in model collections.

 

Mk3s ?? Hmmm. I don't want any, havn't any and am unlikely to have any, whereas I have over a dozen Mk1s, probably five of those from Hornby.

 

Short answer no.     

Edited September 22, 2018 by Covkid

[Ouroborus]

Agree. Are the Hornby & Oxford coaches outstanding? Not really. Are they good enough? For many, yes. And that's the rub - for a mass manufacturer, they need to convert the masses.

[The Bigbee Line]

I have no current or likely future interest in mk3s. I have purchased other coaches, not quite in a whim, but the product is too good to miss. Hornby LSWR and Bachmann birdcages. Things I’ve spent a lifetime yearning for. Now I’ve fallen for O gauge....

 

But to comment on the OP. I think there is a market for better quality models. Wether they would be profitable. Who knows.

 

I don’t think we need a new range with known (avoidable) shortcomings.

[Marcyg]

Bachmann's Mk2 targeted an opening in the market, the other Mk2 air cons were really old, dated tooling (can't remember if Bachmanns version was even a model that was produced before). With Oxfords new Mk3, the opening isn't really there now. Seeing as Oxford can sell theirs at 30quid (albeit with errors) Bachmann will struggle to sell at the prices they're chucking things out at now.

[HillsideDepot]

It's an interesting question, but even if they do, it's not gonna be quick.

Although they are catching up Bachmann still have a lot of work to do on models which they have announced, and are no doubt also working on things they have yet to announce. That list may, or may not, include a Mk3. And even if it did, it might have dropped off the list once Oxford announced theirs. 

 

So, lets say even if Bachmann have decided that there is space for a Mk3 it is likely to be 5 or more years away. And if they have decided to drop any Mk3 plans and do something else, who knows what the market will be in 5 or so years time? It's possible we might not have Hornby. I hope that thought proves incorrect, but in 5 years Hornby should be out of their problems; one way or the other. On the die-cast front Oxford tend to repeat run earlier liveries, an well as adding new. Presumably they will do likewise with with Oxford Rail, so there will be a constant stream of Mk3s in the market place. 

 

What else might change in the 5 or so years between now and a possible Bachmann Mk3 appearing on the shelves? Who can tell? Who, 5 years ago would have foreseen the rise in retailer commissions/ producers? Or the crowd funders? Or other developments which have occurred? Not me, that's for sure!

So, is there room for another Mk3? I'm glad I'm not sitting in Barwell trying to decide!

[brushman47544]

I agree with the earlier posters; the answer has to be no. Hornby has even said in its Engine Shed yesterday that the fitting of NEM couplings is the first upgrade and more should follow over time, and since the basic shape is fine I really can’t see a market for another range that may be better, but how much better? And at how much extra cost?

 

I think Bachmann is far more likely to go for the Mk2b/c as there is no competition (unless Hornby suddenly decides to re-release the Lima ones) and they would go well with their current Mk2/a. The only question; were they ever allocated to the ER?

[phil-b259]

Everyone has their price and there is what economists call marginal utility. The more you have need of something the more you will pay.

We now have some superb rtr items available from the vast range of loomotives through coaching stock to the humble swb freight wagons. But quality comes at a price and I too can see the £100 coach already lurking on the horizon.

Perhaps this was the original thinking behind Hornby Railroad even if the evolution of that brand differed to the first concept. But for those, including myself, who prefer to run their trains in any condition but ex-box the Railroad stock offers the opportunity to break in, populate, super-detail, finescale and weather as we choose at a more modest price.

Is there room in the market for another brand doing a Mk3 range? I have my doubts at the sort of price they would likely command in 2-4 years time allowing for development time starting now. Without whistles and bells probably £60 apiece. Add lighting, passengers, DCC, weathering etc. and probably £85+ each.

At that price I have no interest. I have two perfectly good HST sets and have never needed loco-hauled Mk3 stock. I do sometimes purchase “nice to have” items which would never appear on the layout but a Mk3 north of £50 isn’t one of them.

Oxford aren’t perfect. But I don’t think there is enough confidence in the market for two majors to go head-to-head over a complete range of coaching stock. They do with Mk1 stock but both ranges existed before prices went into orbit. Would Hornby have launched against Bachmann today? No.

Please remember that Hornby’s Mk1 coaches lack:- a close coupling mechanism, separate filler pipes and have a ‘generic underframe. Moreover the inital releases were the basic BSK, CK and SK variants done primarily for the trainset / trainpack / railroad market. Yes Hornby subsequently released the BSO - but this was very much an opportunistic release rather than any strategy to deliberately take on Bachmann.

[frobisher]

In a nutshell, Bachmann would be insane to go down the MK3 root unless they are already very heavily committed and haven't told us yet.

 

The biggest short coming of the Oxford range (the livery application) can be easily addressed and probably will be. The underframe/modules could be rapidly addressed (bite the bullet and retool that one piece and if that sprue also contains the bogies it's a potential "two for"). Similarly, they seem to have provision for a lighting system that Oxford decided to pass on, presumably to keep down to a price, so future versions could well gain lighting. Silver window frames are presumably in the realm of would the market bear the extra cost to apply those.

 

Oxford could potentially sort all of that in a relatively short timescale for future production runs, and we know that they have plans to produce pretty much every variant in time subject to demand, and to keep that demand they will probably have to address at least a couple of the deficiencies.

 

Hornby can only warm over their current range so much, short of a complete retool they aren't going to get up to Bachmann MK2f standard or close to it - Oxford can get much closer from where they already are.

 

Dapol might be your potential dark horse here, given they have their N gauge MK3 range whose CAD could bootstrap an 00 model - can't see it happening really. Maybe in 0 though...

[jjb1970]

For most people the Oxford Mk.3 is almost certainly good enough. Is it the best model in the world? No, it could certainly be improved, however when I look at it and look at some of the criticism of it I think some people are going over the top, it's really not that bad and some aspects are very good.

[adb968008]

If there’s a gap here, I would say it’s the Mk1.

 

A mk1 at this standard would really hurt my wallet, but right now there’s no mk1 close to the standard of this mk2f.

But if a mk1 was made to this standard i’d definitely be buying it, this coach is going to make some of my other rolling stock look dated.

Edited September 22, 2018 by adb968008

[ThaneofFife]

i think the mk1 will receive similar attention from Bachmann.  Ideally at least the vans and buffet cars to receive dcc on board to create a full train with lighting.

 

years ago I tried to fit lighting to my Mk1s but the existing Mk1 bodysides are very translucent and even on a dim setting the light would make the bodysides "glow" slightly.

[mdvle]

It comes down to 2 questions.

 

First, is there a need?  Easy one, yes, given that neither of the 2 currently on the market are accurate.

 

Second, is there demand?

 

More difficult, but I would lean to yes.  It is a significant train in the history of both British Rail and the privatized era, seen over large parts of the UK.  But more importantly, it has a future going forward that is more model friendly.  The HST GTi is a somewhat ideal 4 or 5 coach train that will be far more readily run on many layouts than a full size train.

 

The fact that there are 2 current providers is a bit misleading given that they are both essentially aimed at the railroad end of the market (at least in the model provided if not always price).  The only real question is if someone offers an accurate, detailed Mk3 which of the 2 exits the market if the low end can only support one of them.

[GordonC]

I think if there were a mk3 to the standard of the mk2fs then I'd find it hard to resist getting a couple of rakes. Mk3s are such an important part of the era and areas I model. As it stands I don't think the Oxford mk3a cuts it, but I would agree it would give them a decent starting point over Bachmann

[davidw]

I've no interest in mk3's. However i am surprised that consideration is being made of the £100 coach. The hobby is loco centric and it does seem that many of existing coaches don't seem to shift quickly. I could be wrong but I cant se e a huge market for such vehicles. Which in turn would do nothing but push hi end items further out of reach, creating a vicious circle. Any manufacturer, must look very carefully at tooling, assembly, production and distribution cost for their ROI. My own opinion (for what it's worth) is that long term less detail will be in coaches. For example the new Thompson's are excellent and I'll be getting a good number in maroon. But with validity its been commented that there's less detail than other ranges. It's a difficult trade off, manufacturers can only hope that modellers have sufficently deep pockets.

[Legend]

I think there is scope . With Oxford, Hornby and loads of second hand Lima , even Joueff available for the more price conscious enthusiast (me!). There is scope for a really detailed coach with all the gubbins . Bachman are obviously targeting the top end of the market with some expensive coach ranges.The other candidate is Rapido . They do all the details underneath and I’m sure would produce a coach for the most discerning enthusiast . At a price though . I’ll stick with Lima/Hornby

[GordonC]

Talk of a £100 coach might be surprising, but if it's something that gets used frequently it might still be better value than the hundreds of pounds worth of locos left sitting in boxes because they don't all fit on a layout at once

[phil-b259]

It comes down to 2 questions.

 

First, is there a need?  Easy one, yes, given that neither of the 2 currently on the market are accurate.

 

Second, is there demand?

 

More difficult, but I would lean to yes.  It is a significant train in the history of both British Rail and the privatized era, seen over large parts of the UK.  But more importantly, it has a future going forward that is more model friendly.  The HST GTi is a somewhat ideal 4 or 5 coach train that will be far more readily run on many layouts than a full size train.

Don’t forget that the future GWR and ScotRail Mk3s have had the ends butchered to install power operated doors and thus require new bespoke tooling to model them correctly.

 

This is the big flaw with the Mk3, while they may all superficially look the same, there are an awful lot of detailed differences that have occurred during the years which translates to complicated tooling if you are to get an accurate model for any given variant.

Edited September 23, 2018 by phil-b259

[Fenman]

...

I think Bachmann is far more likely to go for the Mk2b/c as there is no competition (unless Hornby suddenly decides to re-release the Lima ones) and they would go well with their current Mk2/a. The only question; were they ever allocated to the ER?

Some definitely were - 2b coaches could be found on Liverpool St-Cambridge-King’s Lynn InterCity trains in the 1970s.

 

Paul

[mdvle]

Don’t forget that the future GWR and ScotRail Mk3s have had the ends butchered to install power operated doors and thus require new bespoke tooling to model them correctly.

 

This is the big flaw with the Mk3, while they may all superficially look th3 same, there are an awful lot of detailed differences that have occurred during the years which translates to complicated tooling if you are to get an accurate model for any given variant.

 

Which is why I would guess the only way to get models of those new Mk3s is with new tooling unless Oxford was very forward thinking with their tooling.  Being the only way to get those modern formations could be a way to help justify the new tooling.

[frobisher]

Which is why I would guess the only way to get models of those new Mk3s is with new tooling unless Oxford was very forward thinking with their tooling.  Being the only way to get those modern formations could be a way to help justify the new tooling.

Oxford have already show some of the power door fitted MK3s* in their CAD images with an intention to produce suitable slides etc later, but it may be that they might be new tooling if/when they do them.

 

 

*I think it was the Chiltern examples, which are not the same as the Scotrail and GWR sets however...

[Wickham Green]

Oxford have already show some of the power door fitted MK3s* in their CAD images with an intention to produce suitable slides etc later, but it may be that they might be new tooling if/when they do them.

 

 

*I think it was the Chiltern examples, which are not the same as the Scotrail and GWR sets however...

......... or the late lamented Irish Rail ones for that matter. ( They went for scrap 'cos they were non-standard .... OK what the hell IS standard ? )

[Marcyg]

Which is why I would guess the only way to get models of those new Mk3s is with new tooling unless Oxford was very forward thinking with their tooling.  Being the only way to get those modern formations could be a way to help justify the new tooling.

I'm pretty sure when Oxford announced the Mk3 they stated that ALL versions will be catered for, I guess you could take that as the updated coaches as well. Lets hope some of the RTC coaches come out, though until they address their underframe issue I'll be sticking with my Lima and Jouef models

[Dunsignalling]

Mk3s (apart from the modified ones in short-formed refurb HSTs that are yet to appear in any numbers) run in quite large formations, so price is bound to be an issue. I'd guess the level of the Bachmann Thompsons (mid-fifties) probably represents a current ceiling for anything needed in groups greater than three.

 

Hornby seem OK with putting their best recent stuff (Colletts) out at about a tenner a go less, so there's an automatic disincentive to Bachmann trying to stretch the envelope, especially with cheaper alternatives already available. With loco-hauled Mk3s being a somewhat niche interest, I think they'd also need to do HST power cars. All in all, I think the territory is pretty full already and Bachmann (wisely) fight shy of going head-to-head with one competitor, let alone two.       

 

Whilst the Rapido-Rails LNER Dynamometer car proves that selling individual coaches at or above the £100 threshold is not impossible, I think it remain the province of the exotic solo vehicle for the foreseeable future. Bachmann went closer than anyone else prior to that with their Inspection Saloon and Auto-trailer, but again, potential solo purchases. What may well be in the offing, if it takes two or three years for Bachmann's new-tool Bulleids hit the market, is the £200 three-coach set.

 

John

Edited September 24, 2018 by Dunsignalling