R2R locos and stock for 1900-1918 period

[mikesndbs]

Morning all, Is there a list anywhere detailing R2R locos and stock for the period 1914-1918?

Been looking but things are not as easy as I thought lol

 

Example Birdcage coaches in SEC livery would they have been around?

 

 

Thanks

[Dunsignalling]

Not sure when the 60' stock first appeared, but (IIRC) the SECR was still building 54-footers as late as 1910, so presumably after that.

 

Can't currently find my copy of Gould to look it up.

 

John

[Skinnylinny]

Hi there,

Your best bet might be to ask in the Pre-Grouping section here (under Special Interests). What scale are we talking? Do you have a preference for a particular area/company? The pre-grouping (pre-1923) period has a huge number of potential companies, but while several models of locos have been produced of locos in pre-grouping condition, the rolling stock to go with is very rare in ready-to-run condition.

Take the Hornby (ex Dapol) terrier - there's a few wagons and no coaches, and the only ready-to-run LB&SCR brake van produced to my knowledge was the Hornby one, and that design was only introduced in the last year before grouping, so wouldn't have run with the loco in Improved Engine Green.

From memory, the Bachmann Birdcages would have been 1911 onwards, though whether they would have received a simpler livery during the war I'm not sure.

[Gareth Collier]

The 60ft birdcage stock modelled by Bachmann were introduced between 1912-15 so fit nicely into your timescale.

[mikesndbs]

Thanks chaps, very helpful.

 

Good news on the Birdcages.

 

I am 00, and Southern but have no issues with any company

[Skinnylinny]

If you decide to go down the SE&CR route (and why not - there are several RTR models including the Hornby H class, the Bachmann C class (although these can go for silly money in the fully-lined livery) and N class 2-6-0 and the Hattons P class, as well as the Bachmann coaches), and you're happy building plastic wagon kits there are some rather nice pre-grouping southern ones from Cambrian models, while the transfers can be got from HMRS in a big sheet covering lots of wagons. The tricky bit would be getting a brake van.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Dunsignalling]

If you decide to go down the SE&CR route (and why not - there are several RTR models including the Hornby H class, the Bachmann C class (although these can go for silly money in the fully-lined livery) and N class 2-6-0 and the Hattons P class, as well as the Bachmann coaches), and you're happy building plastic wagon kits there are some rather nice pre-grouping southern ones from Cambrian models, while the transfers can be got from HMRS in a big sheet covering lots of wagons. The tricky bit would be getting a brake van.

There's been a very good thread on here describing how to make a very decent SECR 6-w GBV using the Parkside PC58 kit for the LMS Dia.1659 brake van.

 

John

Edited September 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[alastairq]

https://www.shapeways.com/product/L6DEMGDN4/a-76-secr-6w-brakevan-1?optionId=63882627

 

Pricey, but you pays yer money.....?

[mikesndbs]

Hi guys

 

Well after much searching I came up with this combination.

Using the fact that all the companies took part (almost) in the war effort I have hopefully created something that 'might' have been possible.

Your thoughts on my selections would be welcome?

 

 

Regards

Mike

[Dave John]

A thoughtful and sincerely presented video. 

 

Many thanks. 

[Nick Holliday]

Hi guys

 

Well after much searching I came up with this combination.

Using the fact that all the companies took part (almost) in the war effort I have hopefully created something that 'might' have been possible.

Your thoughts on my selections would be welcome?

 

Regards

Mike

I don't want to be too picky, as I know the selection of pre-grouping RTR is very poor, but the one thing that grates, for me, is the livery of your LBSC wagons. They were always grey, albeit different shades over time. See the brake vans in Roxey Mouldings header strip that appears regularly here. Perhaps you could get hold of a second-hand Hornby LBSC brake van, although it was built in 1922.

[Harlequin]

There are lots of pre-grouping GWR OO RTR locos available that fit in your time period. Look for anything designed by Dean and most (all?) designed by Churchward.

 

For example, Dean Goods (really looks the part), City class, Small Prairie, 2800 class, Saint class, etc. etc...

[The Johnster]

Churchward retired in 1922, so, yes, all of his designs.  In addition to your list and to flesh out the etcs, Hornby Star, 42xx, 2721, Heljan 1361, 47xx after 1921, Mainline/Replica/Bachmann 43xx, and possible conversion by removal of more modern features of 61xx Large Prairie (Airfix/Dapol/Hornby from eBay) to provide 31xx.  Of the small prairies, only the 45xx is suitable (original numbers in 21xx series); the 4575 variant with larger tanks is a later introduction.  ROD 30xx just squeezes in, first 20 locos appeared 1919.

 

Some of these RTR examples looked a little different pre-1923, and will need cosmetic work doing to them to represent them as running at that time.  This is where it gets sticky and tricky, and photographic evidence with confirmed dates is advised but not always easy to find.  Buffer shanks, bunkers, chimneys, and frames altered shape or were replaced by more modern versions during overhauls, and sliding cab shutters on the tank engines appeared later as well.  Cab spectacle plates on Churchward (and the later Dean locos which were to all intents and purposes Churchward's work that Dean signed off) had round windows above the firebox, later filled in, and the safety valve covers were replaced with shorter ones over time and the top feed pipes placed up there with the 'shoulder' pieces hiding them.  

[Compound2632]

The cut-off point for RTR pre-Grouping seems to be about a decade before the grouping, i.e. c.1913. There's really very little before that. There are RTR models of older earlier locomotives*, but nearly always in a rebuilt condition such that it's difficult to back-date. The forthcoming Hornby Holmes class C 0-6-0 is a case in point - the class was introduced in 1896 but Hornby's model will represent the class after rebuilding by Reid from 1923 onwards. Another example is Bachmann's 1F 0-6-0T - as the 1377 class these engines were built in the 1880s-90s but the Bachmann model represents an engine fitted with a Belpaire boiler by the LMS from 1925 onwards.

 

*It is pretty much exclusively locomotives. The Bachmann SECR 60ft stock are, I believe, the only RTR models of pre-Grouping carriages in pre-1923 condition. As for RTR wagons purporting to be of pre-Grouping prototypes, don't get me started...

[The Johnster]

The Hornby clerestories are in pre-grouping condition, and the earlier Triang shorty ones are as well, though they are not in a pre-grouping liver despite being intended to accompany Lord of the Isles which is in Dean livery (another loco to add to the RTR pre-grouping list that I'd forgotten, btw).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There is a weird pre-1918 combination now for the GNR: Stirling single, Ivatt C1 Atlantic and J13 0-6-0T. No supporting rolling stock or anything in the way of freight or intermediate traction. (No improvement if we go up to 1922: + Gresley A1, J23/J50 0-6-0T, N2 0-6-2T..Principal express traction and tankies, no filling in the sandwich.)

 

From the GER, the lovely 'little goods' Y14 0-6-0 better known as 'J15', a really good pick as it was mostly not much mucked about with and is easily restored to 1883 condition (a stovepipe chimney, earlier safety valves, low cab roof are the major items).

 

GCR, Robinson's 8K/ROD/O4 and 9J/J11.

Edited November 7, 2018 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[Edwardian]

There are many mysteries.

 

Why LMS Period I coaches form a WW1 Great Western hospital train?

 

Why all RTR manufacturers produce RCH 1923 wagons in earlier liveries?

 

Why the Dapol/Hornby Terrier is neither an A1 nor an A1X by trying to be both? 

 

Why an inter-war super-heated Dean Goods was liveried for 1914 condition?

 

Cost. The answer is surely cost.

 

The almost prohibitive cost of injection moulded tooling.  Appropriate tooling for pre-Grouping is rare, and, as Compound points out this is largely limited to the years before WW1: E.g. E4 (1911 condition), Birdcage 3-set (1912), forthcoming La France (1914-16 onward) etc

 

A great video,however, making good use of what is available.

[Compound2632]

From the GER, the lovely 'little goods' Y14 0-6-0 better known as 'J15', a really good pick as it was mostly not much mucked about with and is easily restored to 1883 condition.

 I've heard otherwise. I'm sure it would have been issued in "must have" GER blue if it were possible.

[mikesndbs]

Hi everyone, thanks for the very positive comments.

 

I was in two minds for a while if I should go ahead, given the gravity of the centenary and the terrible loss of life.

However, while working on my Southampton docks videos I became aware of the massive part the railways played in this and the next conflict.

It therefore seemed fitting to produce this snap shot, a tribute from a railway modeller so to speak.

 

There were of course a few poetic licences used However the Ambulance train is spot on coach wise, they were converted from LMS coaches, of the type seen in the video and were then paired with GWR locos.

Now, I do think it was not a city class, more likely another 4-4-0 but over all the effect is valid.

 

Regarding the LBSC stock liveries, quite right about being grey, of course the brake van and wagon featured were repainted used around the docks, I guess the 'internal use only' could not be seen in the film  

 

Again many thanks and I'd still be interested in further thoughts