Where’s 87002 royal sovereign?

[LMS_LNER_SR_GWR_fan2004]

Hello,

 

Does anyone know what’s happened to 87002 and if it will ever run again as I have lost track as to where it is at the moment?

 

Best regards, Matthew

[flapland]

Its been through Didcot, Reading and into Paddington for the first time ever for it and a 87.

 

 

 

I see it often in Euston ready to pull out the empty stock of the overnight sleepers. My bus to work goes over Hampstead Road Bridge. 

[LMS_LNER_SR_GWR_fan2004]

Thanks, do you know if it will be on the ecml any time soon particularity around Peterborough and Huntingdon or is it just the wcml?

[flapland]

Afraid I don't, although Sleeper diversions due to work on the WCML I think can bring it to the ECML. 

 

When the new Mk5 sleepers which it can't haul come in next year I suspect it will become available for spot hire/rail tours so that may bring it to the ECML as well.

[Northmoor]

Its been through Didcot, Reading and into Paddington for the first time ever for it and a 87.

 

 

I see it often in Euston ready to pull out the empty stock of the overnight sleepers. My bus to work goes over Hampstead Road Bridge. 

 

I saw it on the Caledonian Sleeper at Euston one Thursday morning only a couple of weeks ago.

 

I like the camera angle of the 87 being watched over by Isambard at Paddington and look forward to the first ever electric loco to run in Wales.

[GordonC]

Why won't it be able to haul the new mk5 sleepers?

[flapland]

Why won't it be able to haul the new mk5 sleepers?

 

Understand it would need Dellner coupling fitted and also the ECS power needs are too high even for a 87. Some class 92's and 73's have been modified I understand to meet these needs.

 

However I am not an expert.

[Richie Kynaston]

Why won't it be able to haul the new mk5 sleepers?

 

 

As Flapland said, the ACLG Class 86s and the 87 that GBRf hire are not being fitted with the Dellner couplings, so as of next month, they cannot work the Euston-Glasgow trains or the ECS at either end.  Their use with GBRf will finish next Spring when the Highlander sleeper goes over to Mk5 sleepers.  What happens to them after that is publicly unknown, although I am hearing suggestions there are plans afoot, although not with GBRf.

 

Most of the Class 92s and all Class 73/9s iin Caledonian livery  have now been fitted with the drop-head Dellners, but the power requirements have only been altered on one '92' I gather so far, as once they have been altered, its a different voltage, so they can no longer work with the Mk3s. 

[TravisM]

As Flapland said, the ACLG Class 86s and the 87 that GBRf hire are not being fitted with the Dellner couplings, so as of next month, they cannot work the Euston-Glasgow trains or the ECS at either end.  Their use with GBRf will finish next Spring when the Highlander sleeper goes over to Mk5 sleepers.  What happens to them after that is publicly unknown, although I am hearing suggestions there are plans afoot, although not with GBRf.

 

Most of the Class 92s and all Class 73/9s iin Caledonian livery  have now been fitted with the drop-head Dellners, but the power requirements have only been altered on one '92' I gather so far, as once they have been altered, its a different voltage, so they can no longer work with the Mk3s.

 

I assume that the GBRf Class 47’s and Freightliner Class 90’s won’t be able be used on the Mk5 sleepers either?

[009 micro modeller]

On a sort of related note, will the Night Riviera continue to be diesel hauled throughout when GW electrification is finished? I was assuming it would as Penzance was never going to go electric but it would be interesting to know.

[Pete the Elaner]

It usually just runs the ECS duties between Euston & Wembley. I don't think it travels much further very often.

I see it most mornings in Euston at around 0715.

[Zomboid]

On a sort of related note, will the Night Riviera continue to be diesel hauled throughout when GW electrification is finished? I was assuming it would as Penzance was never going to go electric but it would be interesting to know.

Maybe if a dual power loco comes along which can offer enough performance on diesel, but for now an 88 wouldn't be much use at actually moving the train away from the wires (can they even supply ETS on diesel?), and loco swaps would be more trouble than it would be worth.

[flapland]

It usually just runs the ECS duties between Euston & Wembley. I don't think it travels much further very often.

I see it most mornings in Euston at around 0715.

 

Which is where it was this morning at just before 8:00 when I went over the bridge. 

[Richie Kynaston]

Sorry, only just seen your message

 

I assume that the GBRf Class 47’s and Freightliner Class 90’s won’t be able be used on the Mk5 sleepers either?

 

No, neither will - but the hire of the Class 90s have only continued to provide cover while the 92s are undergoing fitment.  The same goes for the DBC Class 67 that is hired for the Inverness working, its provided cover during the Dellner fitment and upgrades for the 73/9s.

 

On a sort of related note, will the Night Riviera continue to be diesel hauled throughout when GW electrification is finished? I was assuming it would as Penzance was never going to go electric but it would be interesting to know.

 

 

Night Riveria will continue to be Class 57/6s.  Once the new franchise competition starts, the bidders may choose to look and change to some form of bi-mode traction, but a combination of the ETS demand and the Devon/Cornish banks may make that difficult - but technology is always changing and progressing.  Thinking out of the box, some option to create a generator car for the trains, taking the ETS demand entirely away from the locomotive may open some doors? But its all hypothetical at the moment!

 

Richard

[sc2016]

On a sort of related note, will the Night Riviera continue to be diesel hauled throughout when GW electrification is finished? I was assuming it would as Penzance was never going to go electric but it would be interesting to know.

 

Maybe if a dual power loco comes along which can offer enough performance on diesel, but for now an 88 wouldn't be much use at actually moving the train away from the wires (can they even supply ETS on diesel?), and loco swaps would be more trouble than it would be worth.

 

Hi, in the Rail Magazine Issue 847 it mentions that the class 88 has been investigated by GWR for taking over on the Sleeper but it turns out due to their diesel capacity it wasn't up to the standard required and therefore have been ruled out however they are looking at other options. Also it is stated in the same issue that Beacon Rail suggested that a Class 68 could be an option. 

 

Samuel.

[009 micro modeller]

Sorry, only just seen your message

 

 

No, neither will - but the hire of the Class 90s have only continued to provide cover while the 92s are undergoing fitment. The same goes for the DBC Class 67 that is hired for the Inverness working, its provided cover during the Dellner fitment and upgrades for the 73/9s.

 

 

 

Night Riveria will continue to be Class 57/6s. Once the new franchise competition starts, the bidders may choose to look and change to some form of bi-mode traction, but a combination of the ETS demand and the Devon/Cornish banks may make that difficult - but technology is always changing and progressing. Thinking out of the box, some option to create a generator car for the trains, taking the ETS demand entirely away from the locomotive may open some doors? But its all hypothetical at the moment!

 

Richard

Also thinking outside the box, unlike the Scottish sleepers the Cornish one doesn't get split during the journey, so some sort of multiple unit could be created. On the other hand, I think the lack of flexibility and small fleet size might kill this idea. I'm not sure if there's any precedent for multiple unit sleeper stock, perhaps overseas.

[Northmoor]

Also thinking outside the box, unlike the Scottish sleepers the Cornish one doesn't get split during the journey, so some sort of multiple unit could be created. On the other hand, I think the lack of flexibility and small fleet size might kill this idea. I'm not sure if there's any precedent for multiple unit sleeper stock, perhaps overseas.

So many things stack against sleeper stock in the UK.

 

1. While people might be prepared to sit in "day" coaches into the early hours, they won't want to sit in sleeper coaches during the day, so they spend a larger proportion of the day idle.

2.  They carry a very small number of people compared to a day coach.

3.  The UK isn't big enough for there to be much requirement for overnight travel to the capital or elsewhere.  It was the introduction of 125 which killed off the South Wales sleepers, pretty much finished those to Cornwall, while the Scottish ones only survive because of substantial subsidies from the Scottish Government.  The BA Glasgow/Edinburgh - Heathrow Shuttles drew away a large proportion of the market from the South of Scotland.

 

I wonder of the future in the UK is perhaps an adaptation of the Couchette concept, perhaps reclining seats with some privacy curtains in a 2+1 layout.  This would give significantly more passengers/carriage and be slightly more comfortable than overnight flights on airlines (which we're all used to).  This wouldn't get around problem (1) but would partly address problem (2).

[Zomboid]

Also thinking outside the box, unlike the Scottish sleepers the Cornish one doesn't get split during the journey, so some sort of multiple unit could be created. On the other hand, I think the lack of flexibility and small fleet size might kill this idea. I'm not sure if there's any precedent for multiple unit sleeper stock, perhaps overseas.

You could argue that the other way - because the Scottish sleepers divide, they'd be well suited to MU operation.

[DY444]

Hi, in the Rail Magazine Issue 847 it mentions that the class 88 has been investigated by GWR for taking over on the Sleeper but it turns out due to their diesel capacity it wasn't up to the standard required and therefore have been ruled out however they are looking at other options. Also it is stated in the same issue that Beacon Rail suggested that a Class 68 could be an option. 

 

Samuel.

 

I can't imagine any "investigation" into using a Class 88 on the sleeper taking more than 10 seconds.  

 

GWR:  Morning.  What's the power of an 88 on diesel?

DRS: 950hp

GWR: Bye

Edited October 1, 2018 by DY444

[Richie Kynaston]

As Flapland said, the ACLG Class 86s and the 87 that GBRf hire are not being fitted with the Dellner couplings, so as of next month, they cannot work the Euston-Glasgow trains or the ECS at either end.  Their use with GBRf will finish next Spring when the Highlander sleeper goes over to Mk5 sleepers.  What happens to them after that is publicly unknown, although I am hearing suggestions there are plans afoot, although not with GBRf.

 

Most of the Class 92s and all Class 73/9s iin Caledonian livery  have now been fitted with the drop-head Dellners, but the power requirements have only been altered on one '92' I gather so far, as once they have been altered, its a different voltage, so they can no longer work with the Mk3s. 

 

 

Just to update - I am being told that the Mk5 introduction on the Lowlander sleeper has been postponed for 4-6 months, so presumably the 86s and 87 are safe on the ECS duties for a bit longer!

 

Richard

[Reorte]

I can't see MUs (or DMUs at any rate) being suitable for sleeper operations, an engine under the floor isn't the best thing for sleeping. The 67 on the front the last time I used the sleeper was loud enough.

[KeithHC]

Regards the suggestion of an MU I did ask in another thread about putting two class 43s creating a 125 sleeper. May be reduce the length us a 43 up front with a 91 on the back that should be the ultimate bi more.

 

Keith

[TravisM]

Regards the suggestion of an MU I did ask in another thread about putting two class 43s creating a 125 sleeper. May be reduce the length us a 43 up front with a 91 on the back that should be the ultimate bi more.

Keith

Why would you want a 125 sleeper as speed isn’t the main criteria? Given that the sleepers, especially the FGW Night Riviera has a long layover, usually at Taunton plus the power cars would need to be converted from their non standard 3 phase electrical supply to work the Mk 3’s.

[KeithHC]

Why would you want a 125 sleeper as speed isn’t the main criteria? Given that the sleepers, especially the FGW Night Riviera has a long layover, usually at Taunton plus the power cars would need to be converted from their non standard 3 phase electrical supply to work the Mk 3’s.

 

Hi Jools,

It was only a tongue in cheek thought and was only suggested as class 43 where/are becoming surplus. Interestingly when the 91s where introduced they where paired with a Mk3 set topped by a 43. 

[adb968008]

Just to update - I am being told that the Mk5 introduction on the Lowlander sleeper has been postponed for 4-6 months, so presumably the 86s and 87 are safe on the ECS duties for a bit longer!

 

Richard

Really ?

I was just looking at Sleeper scot website last week and they were reporting the lowland sleeper being mk5’s from October 28th, and Highland in Feb 2019..

 

Edit...

https://www.sleeper.scot/travel-after-26-october

 

Wow thats a bit short notice.