Lacathedrale Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Hi guys, I'm looking to scope out the kind of stock I would need for a secondary terminus in the late 30's to 40's. I'm not fussed about modelling the wartime period other than the new locomotives/etc. it would have introduced. It seems broadly that non-commuter trains not of express length would mostly consist of corridor stock, either 57' or 60' of any period. The most common formation appears to be a BTK and BCK bracketing either a CK or TK. The shortest trains omit the BCK. Is this correct? If one were required to have a longer rake, would it be those four (BCK, CK, TK, BTK), or some extra wildcard coach? The longest train I'm looking to put together would be four coaches and a van, led by a tender locomotive. Ian Kirk Kits supply lots of carriage kits - I gather his non-corridor stock is for commuter/suburban trains? Is there anything I need to know specifically about the other designations he has? i.e. Porthole, 7 bay? For other branch line and very secondary service stuff, would one still see older coaches? Slaters have 45' Clayton and 6-wheeled clerestory carriages - I gather some would still be on branch lines, but would they have made their way to the suburban terminii? More importantly, are they overly idiosyncratic or good candidates for some variety? In terms of operation, I can imagine setting coaches out for other trains, and the shuttling of newspaper/fruit traffic to a bay platform - but would there be anything else going on that could be interesting operationally? Lastly, is there anything else I should be aware of (other pre-grouping stock, carriage colours beyond maroon, etc) Thank you so much! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Hi guys, I'm looking to scope out the kind of stock I would need for a secondary terminus in the late 30's to 40's. I'm not fussed about modelling the wartime period other than the new locomotives/etc. it would have introduced. It seems broadly that non-commuter trains not of express length would mostly consist of corridor stock, either 57' or 60' of any period. The most common formation appears to be a BTK and BCK bracketing either a CK or TK. The shortest trains omit the BCK. Is this correct? If one were required to have a longer rake, would it be those four (BCK, CK, TK, BTK), or some extra wildcard coach? The longest train I'm looking to put together would be four coaches and a van, led by a tender locomotive. Ian Kirk Kits supply lots of carriage kits - I gather his non-corridor stock is for commuter/suburban trains? Is there anything I need to know specifically about the other designations he has? i.e. Porthole, 7 bay? For other branch line and very secondary service stuff, would one still see older coaches? Slaters have 45' Clayton and 6-wheeled clerestory carriages - I gather some would still be on branch lines, but would they have made their way to the suburban terminii? More importantly, are they overly idiosyncratic or good candidates for some variety? In terms of operation, I can imagine setting coaches out for other trains, and the shuttling of newspaper/fruit traffic to a bay platform - but would there be anything else going on that could be interesting operationally? Lastly, is there anything else I should be aware of (other pre-grouping stock, carriage colours beyond maroon, etc) Thank you so much! Firstly, you can forget the 'Porthole' stock as that was strictly post-war. Your four-coach set could be gangwayed or non-gangwayed vehicles : the former would probably be a portion of a longer train that's divided for your terminus and one or two other destinations ( any dining facilities would probably remain with a longer portion ). Corridor Brake Composites were never particularly common so a couple of Corridor Brake Thirds sandwiching a Corridor Composite ( or First ) and a Corridor Third would be more typical ( maybe you could substitute an Open Third ), All these could be so-called 'Period I', 'Period II' or early 'Period III' coaches in your time-frame but a good number of later pre-grouping coaches would still have been in use. Non-gangwayed coaching stock might include 'Lavatory' vehicles for cross-country services - or not, for what we now call 'commuter' trains in and around the major conurbations : much of the the LMS-built non-corridor stock was formed into fixed sets and I guess pre-grouping vehicles were treated similarly - six-wheeled passenger-carrying stock would have been very rare by this time. Needless to say there are books 'n' books on the subject - one in particular on LMS train formations ( though I can't track it down on the 'net ) - but I hope this overview might give you a start ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 William, I'm assuming we are talking 00? I seriously doubt that you would see 6 wheeled stock in regular service by the 1930s. The Slaters models are very nice (I had some but sold them on) but out of time for your era. The Ratio ex MR and ex LNWR coaches, nice as they are, are also unlikely to have been seen in the late 30s. The only LMS PIII coaches (Corridor and non) that are made to current standards are from Hornby. There are a pretty good selection of types. Manufacturers prior to this seemed to do only brake 3rds and composites from which you can't really do a convincing formation. Secondary route formations might include LMS PI coaches and there are old Bachmann models of these. The bodies are accurate but glazing is not flush. Underframes lack decent detail. We are still missing that iconic formation of branchline working - pull-push. The driving trailer can be modified from the Hornby PIII brake 3rd using Comet bits. Locos would have a vacuum regulator fitted - this too would need to bodged up as there are no RTR locos. I always find passenger train ops on layouts to be a bit boring, but they are a necessity and certainly provide some eye candy. This can be spiced up by the addition of non passenger coaching stock (CCTs and full brakes for parcels, horse box and milk) which can be shunted at the station. I recommend you look around for books, esp. Essery & Jenkinson's LMS Coaches (this focusses on design, formations and liveries - no drawings). If you plan to make kits look for Jenkinson's Historic Carriage Drawings, LMS and Constituents. (Even if you don't, the book is worth having and is a good complement to the first) HTH John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 Firstly, you can forget the 'Porthole' stock as that was strictly post-war. Your four-coach set could be gangwayed or non-gangwayed vehicles : the former would probably be a portion of a longer train that's divided for your terminus and one or two other destinations ( any dining facilities would probably remain with a longer portion ). Corridor Brake Composites were never particularly common so a couple of Corridor Brake Thirds sandwiching a Corridor Composite ( or First ) and a Corridor Third would be more typical ( maybe you could substitute an Open Third ), All these could be so-called 'Period I', 'Period II' or early 'Period III' coaches in your time-frame but a good number of later pre-grouping coaches would still have been in use. Non-gangwayed coaching stock might include 'Lavatory' vehicles for cross-country services - or not, for what we now call 'commuter' trains in and around the major conurbations : much of the the LMS-built non-corridor stock was formed into fixed sets and I guess pre-grouping vehicles were treated similarly - six-wheeled passenger-carrying stock would have been very rare by this time. Needless to say there are books 'n' books on the subject - one in particular on LMS train formations ( though I can't track it down on the 'net ) - but I hope this overview might give you a start ! Right, so probably a sensible solution to get a couple of BTK's and CK/TK/TO as stock/whimsy suggests? I'd love some book suggestions but I'm very aware at quite how much is out there - I'd rather get 80% of the way there than spend forever figuring the last 20%! Anything you can point me towards would be gladly accepted. William, I'm assuming we are talking 00? I seriously doubt that you would see 6 wheeled stock in regular service by the 1930s. The Slaters models are very nice (I had some but sold them on) but out of time for your era. The Ratio ex MR and ex LNWR coaches, nice as they are, are also unlikely to have been seen in the late 30s. The only LMS PIII coaches (Corridor and non) that are made to current standards are from Hornby. There are a pretty good selection of types. Manufacturers prior to this seemed to do only brake 3rds and composites from which you can't really do a convincing formation. Secondary route formations might include LMS PI coaches and there are old Bachmann models of these. The bodies are accurate but glazing is not flush. Underframes lack decent detail. We are still missing that iconic formation of branchline working - pull-push. The driving trailer can be modified from the Hornby PIII brake 3rd using Comet bits. Locos would have a vacuum regulator fitted - this too would need to bodged up as there are no RTR locos. I always find passenger train ops on layouts to be a bit boring, but they are a necessity and certainly provide some eye candy. This can be spiced up by the addition of non passenger coaching stock (CCTs and full brakes for parcels, horse box and milk) which can be shunted at the station. I recommend you look around for books, esp. Essery & Jenkinson's LMS Coaches (this focusses on design, formations and liveries - no drawings). If you plan to make kits look for Jenkinson's Historic Carriage Drawings, LMS and Constituents. (Even if you don't, the book is worth having and is a good complement to the first) HTH John Hi John, I'm somewhat agnostic with regard to scale in this conversation - ideally I'd like to go with 0-gauge, but there just might not be enough space. I'm debating a langorous 00 gauge layout against a compromised 0 gauge one! I've never really seen railfreight in anything but unit trains of aggregate and containers, so actually an intensive passenger service is more easily translateable to my experience on the railways! I am foreseeing an intensely operated service - as Wickham Green has posited, with branch trains, 'expresses', milk/horse/newspaper/parcel cars all converging. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 I would forget the Midland stock for anything that late. There were some survivors, but they were rare. The six wheelers would be well gone apart from as departmental stock (stores vans for example). For a suburban train if you were doing a two carriage set then Brake Third/Composite (with the brake compartment near the centre), three carriage set Brake Third/Composite/Brake Third. If a four carriage set is needed then add an extra Third Class coach. You always need at least some First Class accommodation. Don't forget the 50 foot full brake. They got everywhere. LMS Coaches book. This is the updated 1970s version. There was also a much enlarged three volume set but expect to pay about £20 each volume. Don't overpay for any of them as they do come up regularly. Some retailers try to charge extortionate amounts. Google the titles and you will get a few hits. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-L-M-S-Coaches-Bob-Essery/dp/0902888838/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537880200&sr=1-1&keywords=lms+coaches The LMS Formations book is this one. Shop around as I would expect to pay less than £15 for it. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Train-Formations-1923-1983-LMS-LM/dp/0711016062 Also look on the Comet website. Load of information on there. Just click on the PDFs and it gives you the instructions which include formations. http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Almost forgot. There's a whole section of the Forum dedicated to LMS coaches. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/144-lms-coaching-stock/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 (edited) Right, so probably a sensible solution to get a couple of BTK's and CK/TK/TO as stock/whimsy suggests? I'd love some book suggestions but I'm very aware at quite how much is out there - I'd rather get 80% of the way there than spend forever figuring the last 20%! Anything you can point me towards would be gladly accepted. Hi John, I'm somewhat agnostic with regard to scale in this conversation - ideally I'd like to go with 0-gauge, but there just might not be enough space. I'm debating a langorous 00 gauge layout against a compromised 0 gauge one! I've never really seen railfreight in anything but unit trains of aggregate and containers, so actually an intensive passenger service is more easily translateable to my experience on the railways! I am foreseeing an intensely operated service - as Wickham Green has posited, with branch trains, 'expresses', milk/horse/newspaper/parcel cars all converging. Interesting you mention 0 gauge William. I did 00 LMS for around 30 years but switched to 0 a couple of years ago. You mentioned Kirk coach kits and there are LMS coaches in 0 range. These kits are inexpensive but really parts packs or aids to the scratchbuilder. I bought 3 short Gresley kits and, to date, finished a full brake. I bought in a lot of parts to get the standard of build I want, but that is up to the builder. Despite having a fairly large area, my station will just acommodate 2 coaches, so, yes there are compromises. I do have a curve at one end which is 4'6" rad. This is about as small as I think is practicable. I can propel stock with 3 link couplings without buffer lock. AFIK there are no RTR LMS coaches in 0 gauge for a reasonable price. RTR offerings tend to be GWR, . I decided to bring my era forward to early 1960s because of the lack of LMS RTR. John Edited September 25, 2018 by brossard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 I would forget the Midland stock for anything that late. There were some survivors, but they were rare. The LMS Formations book is this one. Shop around as I would expect to pay less than £15 for it. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Train-Formations-1923-1983-LMS-LM/dp/0711016062 Jason There were certainly a few of the better LNWR gangwayed 57 (?) footers still in use well into BR days. Thanks for tracking-down the 'Formations' book .... I was using the word 'Midland' in my searches ( with or without 'London' ) and kept finding a certain present day 'Train Operating Company' ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 Thank you all very much for the input and the book references. My general idea for 0 gauge was to have a pair of 'mainline' trains consisting of 3-4 coaches with a full brake/parcels/etc. that can shuttle out and back, being fussed over by a 2-6-4T or Jinty. The loco not on station pilot duties could come on with a push-pull set or some knackered wood-bodied guff from a branchline further down the line. I've yet to tackle the logistics required for an 8' long traverser or sector plate however, so the idea may be stillborn. In 00 I'd get alot more train but I'm worried that it'll just become an exercise in wallet-thickness rather than modelling and construciton if everything is available RTR. That's something for me to tackle as it goes, but it seems the longer formations would be simply more Brake thirds/thirds surrounding composities or first class coaches in either corridor or compartment stock. Typically would one have seen perishables/newspapers/parcels/milk/etc. as separate trains, or just behind the loco on scheduled trains? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Typically would one have seen perishables/newspapers/parcels/milk/etc. as separate trains, or just behind the loco on scheduled trains? Both. You even used to see them attached to the end of DMUs. Another thread to browse. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66383-modelling-a-traditional-parcels-train/ Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted September 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 25, 2018 I would forget the Midland stock for anything that late. There were some survivors, but they were rare. The six wheelers would be well gone apart from as departmental stock (stores vans for example). For a suburban train if you were doing a two carriage set then Brake Third/Composite (with the brake compartment near the centre), three carriage set Brake Third/Composite/Brake Third. If a four carriage set is needed then add an extra Third Class coach. You always need at least some First Class accommodation. Don't forget the 50 foot full brake. They got everywhere. LMS Coaches book. This is the updated 1970s version. There was also a much enlarged three volume set but expect to pay about £20 each volume. Don't overpay for any of them as they do come up regularly. Some retailers try to charge extortionate amounts. Google the titles and you will get a few hits. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-L-M-S-Coaches-Bob-Essery/dp/0902888838/ref=sr_1_1_twi_har_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537880200&sr=1-1&keywords=lms+coaches The LMS Formations book is this one. Shop around as I would expect to pay less than £15 for it. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Train-Formations-1923-1983-LMS-LM/dp/0711016062 Also look on the Comet website. Load of information on there. Just click on the PDFs and it gives you the instructions which include formations. http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/ Jason For 1930s LMS I'd also recommend the book "Eric Treacy's LMS" which has very full and informative captions by David Jenkinson and Patrick Whitehouse. It's a great price s/h for what it contains--http://amzn.eu/d/2UpKc1n cheers, Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 (edited) Thanks both, LMS book bought Now onto the parcels thread. Edited September 25, 2018 by Lacathedrale 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 26, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 26, 2018 In the late 30s through to the war years there would still be plenty of older stock in use on such secondary services - not just LMS period 1 wood-bodied (panelled) carriages but the later LNWR and Midland designs, depending on location. Much of the LNWR stock built with elliptical roofs from c. 1910 onwards was dimensionally and hence operationally similar to the standard LMS stock. Post-Great War LNWR carriages would be no more than 20 years old and perfectly serviceable. The other point to bear in mind is that the simplified LMS carriage livery was introduced in 1934, so very many carriages would still be fully lined out a la Midland. If anyone doubts this, I recommend watching Brief Encounter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacathedrale Posted September 26, 2018 Author Share Posted September 26, 2018 Oh I'm so cross with myself - just read that the streamlining came off the Coronation/Duchesses in 46 and they weren't fitted with non-sloping fireboxes until '52 - that's about 15 years after I was hoping to set my layout. I know I can just ignore it, but that's going to bug me and I'll forever have to have a mental asterisk excusing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 26, 2018 Share Posted September 26, 2018 In the late 30s through to the war years there would still be plenty of older stock in use on such secondary services - not just LMS period 1 wood-bodied (panelled) carriages but the later LNWR and Midland designs, depending on location. Much of the LNWR stock built with elliptical roofs from c. 1910 onwards was dimensionally and hence operationally similar to the standard LMS stock. Post-Great War LNWR carriages would be no more than 20 years old and perfectly serviceable. The other point to bear in mind is that the simplified LMS carriage livery was introduced in 1934, so very many carriages would still be fully lined out a la Midland. If anyone doubts this, I recommend watching Brief Encounter. Stephen the PIII coaches came out shortly before simplified lining was adopted, so there were a small number outshopped with faux midland lining. PI and PII coaches were originally done in the midland lining style but I've never seen a picture or any evidence that they received the simplified lining. If any did, there were probably not many. The war intervened so that fancy paint jobs were deferred. A lot of PI coaches were converted to ambulances. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted September 27, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 27, 2018 On livery, LMS expected a carriage paint job to last 7 years. This could probably be stretched a bit if it was still presentable. So a Midland coach built in 1920 would have Midland livery to 1927, then the first LMS style. In 1934 it might get the simplified livery or continue as before. In 1941 ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 Agree David, that's what should have happened. No-one took any pictures it seems. LMS took a lot of pictures, you'd think they might have taken a snap of the first PI or PII to get simplified livery. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 On livery, LMS expected a carriage paint job to last 7 years. This could probably be stretched a bit if it was still presentable. So a Midland coach built in 1920 would have Midland livery to 1927, then the first LMS style. In 1934 it might get the simplified livery or continue as before. In 1941 ... While the paint job might have lasted seven years in theory, the carriage would have visited the works for other purposes more frequently - so the chances of it retaining 'MIDLAND RAILWAY' insignia are pretty slim even if the original lining was retained. ( I GUESS carriages in 'other' colours would have had priority for a full repaint.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 Oh I'm so cross with myself - just read that the streamlining came off the Coronation/Duchesses in 46 and they weren't fitted with non-sloping fireboxes until '52 - that's about 15 years after I was hoping to set my layout. I know I can just ignore it, but that's going to bug me and I'll forever have to have a mental asterisk excusing it. The 1938 batch, 6230-34 Buccleuch/Atholl/Montrose/Sutherland/Abercorn was built without streamlining if that helps. Recognisable by the curved front footplating rather than the gap on the de-streamlined versions. The 1944 onwards locos were similarly non-streamlined from new but they might be a bit late for you (Sheffield - Salford). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 27, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 27, 2018 While the paint job might have lasted seven years in theory, the carriage would have visited the works for other purposes more frequently - so the chances of it retaining 'MIDLAND RAILWAY' insignia are pretty slim even if the original lining was retained. ( I GUESS carriages in 'other' colours would have had priority for a full repaint.) IIRC the lettering was applied between coats of varnish, so deterioration of the lettering would be the signal for re-varnishing. In high Midland days this would be more frequent than full repainting; it explains how the 1905-6 livery change to numbers on the doors happened relatively quickly and, I suppose, the change to LMS lettering. There's plenty of evidence that much LNWR stock remained in LNWR livery until well into the 20s; was this due to re-varnishing only? I don't think there's any evidence such carriages gained LMS lettering or large class numbers on the doors whilst still in plum and spilt milk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 7, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2018 In the late 30s through to the war years there would still be plenty of older stock in use on such secondary services - not just LMS period 1 wood-bodied (panelled) carriages but the later LNWR and Midland designs, depending on location. Much of the LNWR stock built with elliptical roofs from c. 1910 onwards was dimensionally and hence operationally similar to the standard LMS stock. Post-Great War LNWR carriages would be no more than 20 years old and perfectly serviceable. Whilst reading this afternoon I spotted a picture of a Glasgow & South Western BTK at New St in the mid 1950s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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