N Gauge Poll?

[grahame]

"If the N community wants a poll then members of that community need to step up and devote the time.  If the N community can't get a handful of people to put in that effort, then maybe the N community isn't really interested in having a poll."

 

The above was a rather terse note posted on the Wish List Poll thread. Unfortunately, to a large extent, the N gauge community was probably not aware of the news that N gauge would not be included in the 2018 poll. The news was only mentioned less than two weeks ago and not made public earlier presumably while plans were obviously being undertaken for the OO only poll. Also the post included the information that "all is not lost! Discussions are in hand for another group to take that on [N gauge] in the future using our Guide notes as a basis" so I guess initially many thought things were happening. However, from further information, only uncovered and made public yesterday, it would seem that this doesn't appear to be actually happening.

 

That does make the underlying message of the post true in that some N gauge enthusiasts now need to get together to put in the effort if a poll is wanted (or maybe not). Therefore, is there anyone who would be interested in undertaking such a task. No doubt the OO Poll team will provide advice and the 2016 database, and that RMweb would be prepared to host the poll. And hopefully Andy/RMweb will also provide the necessary 'computerised aspects' as for the OO poll.

 

Over to N'thusiasts.

 

G 

 

 

[Andy Y]

Reading your post I note that the comment was made by a participant rather than Brian - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137968-advance-notice-the-wishlist-poll-2018/page-4&do=findComment&comment=3328764 but you state " Also the post included the information that "all is not lost! Discussions are in hand for another group to take that on [N gauge] in the future using our Guide notes as a basis" which infers that it is the same post. It is not; the former was by mdvle and the latter by Brian.
 
Brian and the team have worked hard on the guide and poll content over the years so it's unfortunate to potentially conflate two statements which negates the generosity they make by offering their previous work. I understood this was done through appropriate channels to the NGS so any lack of enthusiasm would seem to be from the NGS rather than the poll team.
 
I have worked with Brian and the team for several years on the poll and my involvement is based on their clear, timely and accurate information provided to I can format the mechanics, this takes time from my side and as Brian knows the timing this year meant working around personal overriding distractions.

 

and that RMweb would be prepared to host the poll. 

 

 

 

Unless there was an absolute assurance that the data would be provided in the same form and with the same high degree of organisation I cannot guarantee I'd meet the presumption and have the time available to do it. Part of my reticence to be immediately obliging is because of an attitude from some of the N community towards this direction. That shouldn't come as a surprise as it's something I've said face to face to you recently, it frustrates the hell out of me as it's rarely evidence-based and even today I've had to address a criticism that my employer is not doing enough for his needs as an N gauge modeller. I've given up arguing about it as any fact-based responses I give go disregarded.
 
I await assurances that it could be delivered, if not I would rather opt out I'm afraid as it's additional work and potentially a thankless task.
 
Back to photoshopping a very good N gauge layout for BRM for a future issue.

[grahame]

The mention of 'the post' was with regards to the news from nearly two weeks ago and wasn't intended to reference the first post originally mentioned. I'm sorry that you've thought the two were the same.

 

If you are able to provide details the format necessary for the data I'm sure that any team put together (not so sure that will happen at ATM) will adhere to it.

 

It's a shame that you feel reticence toward N gauge because of a few individuals (presumably not on RMweb). It's often the same for many other things in life - I've even heard similar criticism about OO/4mm content in magazines. And I get similar comment about not featuring specific subjects in the Journal as editor.

 

G.

[Andy Y]

It's a shame that you feel reticence toward N gauge 

 

Please don't place words into my mouth. I have no negative feelings towards the scale, the models, the layouts or indeed those who do the actual modelling but I am fed up of getting negative comments such as 'you don't put any/enough* N gauge layouts/content in the magazine'.

 

* Fake news reference

 

I do have reticence in thinking I'd be giving up numerous hours for something which some people would probably incorrectly grumble about.

[Tricky-CRS]

Although disappointed about the poll I fully support the teams decision, I also get why RMweb may be reticent to support or host it. N gauge sector can be very polarized, vocal and self orientated, possibly more so than OO.

 

The fact that the team feel they put a lot of effort in for no return, it may be that it would be better off on another platform. That may well be impractical I don't know but certainly is not achievable in the short term.

 

My knowledge may not be good enough, but I could certainly look at helping with some parts of the lists.

 

One thing is clear is we need to (like it or not) respect the decision of the poll team and look for a solution for next year.

[grahame]

Of course, people will always grumble and complain without justification, even about things other than N gauge. From what you said face to face it is mainly comments on Facebook that the moans that rankle eminate from rather than RMweb. And unfortunately I know that negative comments about RMweb are made on other forums and they also criticise the NGS and myself personally.

 

However, what I'm trying to do here is be positive and see if there is any appetite to fill the N gauge void in the 2018 poll. There may not be. But it would be nice if there was.

 

G

[Andy Y]

However, what I'm trying to do here is be positive and see if there is any appetite to fill the N gauge void in the 2018 poll. There may not be. But it would be nice if there was.

G

I applaud the fact that you're trying something positive and I am sure you get some negativity too; it's just sensible that I don't blindly and willingly walk into a thankless position.

 

Yes, there's far more of it on Facebook and other sites than here. We also get it at shows.

[TomE]

Given the backlog of N Gauge models yet to work their way through to the shelves I’m not sure a poll is entirely necessary this year!

 

Tom.

[HullCityB17]

I would have thought the whole point of doing a poll is to get views of a wide spectrum of people's views, which means covering more than one gauge.

Not just trying to manipulate the questions to get the answers which you want, compaired to what the customer wants.

 

Surely you need to realise now people are leaving 00 Gauge and moving to N, EM, 0, G or even Gauge 1 as well as the various other scales too numerous to mention.

 

Not everyone who has changed gauge or scale cares about 00 Gauge/4mm anymore and the fact that the magazine are so on-sided towards this scale is so unbelievable!

 

I think the Poll Team are completely wrong and either the Poll needs scrapping and re-writing or it needs changing for a broader appeal of scales/gauges!

[Revolution Ben]

Hi all

 

I think it is a pity that the poll team have decided that including N isn't possible this year, but I respect their decision.

 

I suspect it may be too late for this year, but perhaps like-minded enthusiasts could - possibly under the aegis of the NGS - create a team to do the N gauge poll next year?

 

Or do we know who the group is that the Poll team are already in contact with? Could they be given support?

 

I would offer to help but I have too much other stuff on at the moment.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

NOTE: Edited to correct misunderstanding .

Edited October 13, 2018 by Ben A

[LBRJ]

I would have thought the whole point of doing a poll is to get views of a wide spectrum of people's views, which means covering more than one gauge.

Not just trying to manipulate the questions to get the answers which you want, compaired to what the customer wants.

 

Surely you need to realise now people are leaving 00 Gauge and moving to N, EM, 0, G or even Gauge 1 as well as the various other scales too numerous to mention.

 

Not everyone who has changed gauge or scale cares about 00 Gauge/4mm anymore and the fact that the magazine are so on-sided towards this scale is so unbelievable!

 

I think the Poll Team are completely wrong and either the Poll needs scrapping and re-writing or it needs changing for a broader appeal of scales/gauges!

 

4mm scale is about 80% of the market.... It matters despite your hyperbole (not forgetting that EM is really just wider OO)

[BMacdermott]

Hi all

 

I think it is a pity that the poll team have decided that including N isn't worth their while, but I respect their decision.

 

I suspect it may be too late for this year, but perhaps like-minded enthusiasts could - possibly under the aegis of the NGS - create a team to do the N gauge poll next year?  

 

Or do we know who the group is that the Poll team are already in contact with?  Could they be given support?

 

Ben A.

 

Hello Ben

 

I will send you a PM.

 

Can I just clarify the comment above: "...including N isn't worth their while."?

 

The Poll Team has felt for a number of years that we weren't able to do the N Poll justice as we simply didn't have the broad range of knowledge. Added to the fact that certain time constraints are being placed on me at home - plus our desire to improve the 00 Poll for the benefit of 00 modellers - we took the decision to not run. An accusation was laid against us elsewhere that 'we don't care' - but that is exactly the point that we do care and want to see an N Poll run by N people - properly.

 

Hence we have offered to hand over our hard-won Guide notes free, gratis and for nothing to a suitable team (albeit with a handful of sensible caveats).

 

If you are at GETS today, I will try to find you to say hello.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[scottystitch]

Regardless of current backlog, I think an N Gauge poll is desirable, if not essential,to steer and grow the scale.

 

I would be happy to help a team carry a poll onwards (with appropriate guidance - I'm not a leader) in whatever capacity I can.

 

Best

 

Scott

Edited October 13, 2018 by scottystitch

[Revolution Ben]

Hello Ben

 

I will send you a PM.

 

Can I just clarify the comment above: "...including N isn't worth their while."?

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

My apologies for the misinterpretation. PM sent.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[grahame]

I understood this was done through appropriate channels to the NGS so any lack of enthusiasm would seem to be from the NGS rather than the poll team.

Just to clarify this as it has been quoted on another forum to criticize the NGS. Although in the past a former NGS chairman was involved with supporting the poll, no official representation to the NGS committee was made regarding the 2018 poll. I understand that Brian contacted a person about it (who is probably a member but certainly not an official) and although he showed initial interest has not pursued it or referred it to the NGS. Any perceived lack of enthusiasm can't be considered to be from the NGS.

 

G

[grahame]

Regardless of current backlog, I think an N Gauge poll is desirable, if not essential,to steer and grow the scale.

 

Yes, there is a backlog of items still being worked through to release but Farish (and probably Dapol) will announce their new 2019 range in January. Running a poll now is probably too late to influence new products to be announced in a few months, and to leave it a year will only mean the same issues for a 2020 range.

 

Therefore, it might be a good idea to consider running an N gauge poll in the Spring of 2019. That would allow time to put together a poll team and be more timely for manufacturers to include in consideration for their 2020 ranges.

 

G.

[scottystitch]

Yes, there is a backlog of items still being worked through to release but Farish (and probably Dapol) will announce their new 2019 range in January. Running a poll now is probably too late to influence new products to be announced in a few months, and to leave it a year will only mean the same issues for a 2020 range.

 

Therefore, it might be a good idea to consider running an N gauge poll in the Spring of 2019. That would allow time to put together a poll team and be more timely for manufacturers to include in consideration for their 2020 ranges.

 

G.

Agreed, we are/would be too late for 2019 and similarly for 2020. A March, April or May poll would seem ideal.

 

Best

 

Scott

[GeoffAlan]

Given the backlog of N Gauge models yet to work their way through to the shelves I’m not sure a poll is entirely necessary this year!

 

Tom.

Absolutely. I'm now into year 5 of waiting for a J72!

 

On the fact that N isn't included in the wish list, I would have hoped the list would have included all scales. However as it's up to the people organising the poll. However I note my wish list is unwelcome.

[BMacdermott]

 

On the fact that N isn't included in the wish list, I would have hoped the list would have included all scales. However as it's up to the people organising the poll. However I note my wish list is unwelcome.

 

Hello Geoff

 

Perhaps you would kindly read The Poll Team's earlier explanations? Here and on the thread entitled: Advance Notice - The Wishlist Poll 2018.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Chris M]

Even Morrison's have abandoned us N gauge enthusiasts.

[mdvle]

Yes, there is a backlog of items still being worked through to release but Farish (and probably Dapol) will announce their new 2019 range in January. Running a poll now is probably too late to influence new products to be announced in a few months, and to leave it a year will only mean the same issues for a 2020 range.

 

Therefore, it might be a good idea to consider running an N gauge poll in the Spring of 2019. That would allow time to put together a poll team and be more timely for manufacturers to include in consideration for their 2020 ranges.

 

 

I think attempting to optimize a poll time for the big announcements is a bit problematic for 2 reasons:

 

1) without talking to the manufacturers it is difficult to know how their schedules work - it may well be that by the time they ponder the results, contemplate options, optionally get feedback from trusted outside sources, do some preliminary research, do full research and finally get at least CAD done 12 months could have gone by.  Add in perhaps time for an EP before an announcement (as some manufacturers now aim to do) and it could end up with a Spring poll only being ideal for a summer announcement.

 

2) not all announcements are made in January.  Revolution made a bunch of N announcements last month, Accurascale/Realtrack made an announcement 2 days ago, and looking through the Farish forum it looks like March for a lot of years so there really isn't any guarantee that Farish will continue sticking to January.

 

A better choice, given the amount of work that needs to be done, is to choose a date that works best for those volunteering their time, so that an N poll stands a better chance of not just restarting but being a valuable ongoing project.

[grahame]

2) not all announcements are made in January. Revolution made a bunch of N announcements last month, Accurascale/Realtrack made an announcement 2 days ago, and looking through the Farish forum it looks like March for a lot of years so there really isn't any guarantee that Farish will continue sticking to January.

 

A better choice, given the amount of work that needs to be done, is to choose a date that works best for those volunteering their time, so that an N poll stands a better chance of not just restarting but being a valuable ongoing project.

Somehow I doubt the OO poll is timed for optimum manufacture announcements. However, in British N gauge the big two tend to make their announcements at the start of the year. RT have indicated that it is unlikely they will announce anything new until TINGS 2019 so a spring poll would nicely fit with that. My understanderstanding is that Accurascale are 4mm/OO only, with Realtrack picking up the N/2mm part. But with the one N wagon announced by each so far (AFAIA) along with Calvalex they are very small, although their announcements have occurred around this time of the year so a Spring poll might have been timely.

 

Small, but a little larger than them, are Peco, Union Mills, CJM and DJM although I don't detect any regular pattern to their announcements so a poll time may not be relevant to them.

 

I'd also have thought that volunteers would each have thier own preferred available periods so perhaps asking for those that can fit with an announced expected workload would be better than trying to fit a suitable acceptable time around differeing individuals. But that would be an issue for the lead volunteer. It'd probably be best to leave the timing to them rather than be prescriptive at this stage.

 

G

Edited October 15, 2018 by grahame

[mdvle]

Somehow I doubt the OO poll is timed for optimum manufacture announcements. However, in British N gauge the big two tend to make their announcements at the start of the year.

 

 

Dapol is hard to find at a quick check given their announcements aren't officially done on RMweb, but based on a quick glance through the Dapol section I see:

 

Class 68 - October 2013

Prototype HST - September 2015

Mk3 Sleepers - September 2018

 

Further, going through the news archive on the Dapol website (Oct 2016 - today with some apparent gaps) I get the following stat:

 

New N models - April

Rerun of existing tooling - January, March, April, September

 

[not that it matters, but the announcement dates for OO and O are similarly scattered around the calendar]

 

For Farish, easier to check on RMweb, get:

 

2011 - March

2012 - March, September

2013 - March

2014 - July

2015/2016 - March

2017 - January

2018 - January

 

So, Farish have used the beginning of the year for 2 years out of the last 8 and Dapol appear to make announcements at any time of year, and to a certain extent tend to make announcements at shows that reflect the scale in question but even that looks like grasping.

 

I'm not seeing any urgency to deal around a January announcement program when only 1 company has done that, and only for the last 2 years and thus based on past company history that could change at any time.

[grahame]

The Bachmann (Branch line and Farish) 2019 range announcements are scheduled for early January. They do also provide updates at other times throughout the year but these aren't to announce new product.

 

G

[mdvle]

The Bachmann (Branch line and Farish) 2019 range announcements are scheduled for early January. They do also provide updates at other times throughout the year but these aren't to announce new product.

 

 

So now we have dropped from the 2 big N make their announcements in January to just Farish do.

 

And while that is true (at least for 2017-19), historically it hasn't been the case and thus basing a poll date around something that Farish has shown to move around over the last decade is not the best of justifications.  If in 2020 Farish announce in March, or November, or any other date other than January to you then move the poll date?

 

It is demonstrably hard to find volunteers for anything, and an N poll will be no different.  Artificially restricting your pool of possible volunteers by arbitrarily deciding on a date based on one company's announcement date for only 3 years, and based on likely faulty assumptions on how the development process for new models works, isn't necessarily the best way to approach things.

 

Find the volunteers who can provide the time and knowledge, and then find consensus among those volunteers as to what poll date works best for them.  You won't be able to accommodate all of them, but as long as you can get enough to make the poll viable you are better off than now.