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Major fire at Newton Abbot Carriage shed

gwr carriage shed fire newton abbot



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#26 Mallard60022

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 15:11

Victorians built things to last when it came to structures.
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#27 Zomboid

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 15:41

Good job our forebears did not take the same attitude in building the railways !!!

The people who built the railways often did a thoroughly slapdash job of it.
The difference is that most of the junk had already fallen over by 1900 (the first Tay Bridge, for example). A few of the dodgy things are still around and we're enjoying the consequences, such as the Hastings line, but by and large we're left with the better quality things.

I bet some of the branch lines which didn't make it were home to some badly built bridges and earthworks - some of which ended up causing the closure.
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#28 Dunsignalling

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 16:48

I would hang him if he had succeeded destroying the Houses if Parliament, as to getting rid of a number of politicians???

 

Gordon A

The Parliament that Mr Fawkes had designs on was rather older and more interesting than the Victorian pseudo-gothic monstrosity currently in place, and which will imminently be costing us several billion to make safe and (allegedly) fit-for-purpose...…

 

Knocking it down (during the recess of course) and building an example of the best that today's architects can produce in its place might be a good way to demonstrate the nation's concern for the future gaining ascendancy over an undiscriminating worship of the old just because it's old.  

 

As for the big, empty, and now smouldering, structure in Newton Abbot, the question is (probably was, by now), what future use can it (or a substantial part of it) be adapted to?

 

It's all very well preserving/conserving old buildings of merit, but retaining a crumbling empty shell without a purpose, leading to the development of pristine countryside in its stead, does no-one any good.  

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 22 October 2018 - 16:52 .

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#29 chris p bacon

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 19:26

New build is VAT free but add an extension or refurbish and its 20% extra!

 

 

New build is  0% VAT, conversion of commercial to residential is 5% VAT. this is so that redundant commercial buildings can find another life rather than demolition.

 

I am converting an office to residential at the moment,  the value as a commercial building fell off a cliff, when parking restrictions were placed outside to stop commuter parking when railway traffic increased 10 fold.


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#30 Ken.W

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 22:41

As for the big, empty, and now smouldering, structure in Newton Abbot, the question is (probably was, by now), what future use can it (or a substantial part of it) be adapted to?

 

It's all very well preserving/conserving old buildings of merit, but retaining a crumbling empty shell without a purpose, leading to the development of pristine countryside in its stead, does no-one any good. 

 

Well, the proposal for this building was to replace it with another new supermarket...

 

In the pleasant town near where we stayed on holiday this year, in which the town centre had retained most of it's character, the new supermarket was....

quite clearly the old railway goods shed! (with a sympathetic extension)

 

A large, open, shed would be ideal for a supermarket (most of them are just that anyway)


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#31 Ken.W

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Posted 22 October 2018 - 22:45

Funny how, from post #2 and it's list of likes, it seems just about everyone reading this thread had the same initial thought


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#32 hayfield

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 07:32

Whilst the 2 foreign interlopers are growing, the rest of the food supply industry is going through quite a crisis, two major groups merging, the largest supplier entering the cheap discount part of the market, demise of the mega large stores. The inner-city convenience profile was the way to go, bit is now in decline. The small corner shops are also in decline. The question is do we need more food retail outlets, do out of town stores help in the decline of our high streets.

 

On the other hand would a sympathetic remodelling bring back into use part of our industrial heritage irrespective of its use ?


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#33 chris p bacon

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 07:50

Whilst the 2 foreign interlopers are growing, 

 

They are in this area,  we have gone from 1 of each store to 3 of each with more on the way. They are expanding with new builds so fast it makes you wonder how much their prices will rise to pay for all the land aquisition and build costs.

 

having said that, one build near to me has stalled and I know of one main contractor who is having 'difficulties' getting his bill paid.


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#34 Wickham Green

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 09:39

 

 

Knocking it down (during the recess of course) and building an example of the best that today's architects can produce in its place might be a good way to demonstrate the nation's concern for the future gaining ascendancy over an undiscriminating worship of the old just because it's old.  

 

 

....... ah, the best today's architects can produce eh ? .......... hopefully better than the best eyesore they managed to produce for the Scottish Parliament building ..........


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#35 ejstubbs

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 10:18

On the other hand would a sympathetic remodelling bring back into use part of our industrial heritage irrespective of its use ?

 

Sometimes remodelling is not adequate to meet modern needs (especially for something like food retail cf storage and maintenance of railway coaches).  Or the cost of remodelling is so much higher than the cost of rebuilding that it's simply not justifiable for a business which aims to remain solvent.  And sometimes the existing fabric is so far gone as to make preservation nigh-on impossible - you'd end up rebuilding most of it from scratch (see also 60103).

 

Apparently, one of the latest designs put forward for the Aldi store does aim to reflect some of the brickwork and arch details from the old facade:

 

gallery_23983_3473_100402.jpg

 

A number of commentators on a.n.other rail-related forum have suggested that demolition of the fire-damaged building could easily be more expensive than if it had not been set alight.  That's because of the likelihood of asbestos debris, and the risk of heat-related weakening of previously sound brick/masonry and metal structural elements.

 

DevonLive has reported that the local fire & rescue service has confirmed that the fire was started deliberately.  Unsurprisingly, no suggestion has yet been put forward as to those responsible.  The article does say that youths had been seen in the buildings on Saturday afternoon.  On the DevonLive live feed it was noted that a small rubbish fire had been set inside the building on Sunday, which the fire & rescue had extinguished.  Looks like it could just be the local neds taking advantage of a building that was about to be demolished to have a bit of fire-raising fun.  (Admittedly it's not completely outwith the realms of possibility that they were put up to it, but I do always try to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind in such situations.)


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#36 ejstubbs

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 10:54

The people who built the railways often did a thoroughly slapdash job of it.
The difference is that most of the junk had already fallen over by 1900 (the first Tay Bridge, for example). A few of the dodgy things are still around and we're enjoying the consequences, such as the Hastings line, but by and large we're left with the better quality things.

I bet some of the branch lines which didn't make it were home to some badly built bridges and earthworks - some of which ended up causing the closure.

 

In other words, we think "they built things to last" because most of the stuff that they didn't build so well hasn't survived for us to see.

 

A fine example of Survivorship Bias.


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#37 hayfield

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 14:50

They are in this area,  we have gone from 1 of each store to 3 of each with more on the way. They are expanding with new builds so fast it makes you wonder how much their prices will rise to pay for all the land aquisition and build costs.

 

having said that, one build near to me has stalled and I know of one main contractor who is having 'difficulties' getting his bill paid.

 

Dave

 

The one beginning with A is building its third store in Chelmsford, plus 1 next to the other in Maldon. I don't know if one wants to enlarge its audience or close its compeditator. For me I only go to the other for the odd tool as the fresh food quality I tried was not up to what I have got used to.


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#38 hayfield

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 14:55

Sometimes remodelling is not adequate to meet modern needs (especially for something like food retail cf storage and maintenance of railway coaches).  Or the cost of remodelling is so much higher than the cost of rebuilding that it's simply not justifiable for a business which aims to remain solvent.  And sometimes the existing fabric is so far gone as to make preservation nigh-on impossible - you'd end up rebuilding most of it from scratch (see also 60103).

 

Apparently, one of the latest designs put forward for the Aldi store does aim to reflect some of the brickwork and arch details from the old facade:

 

gallery_23983_3473_100402.jpg

 

A number of commentators on a.n.other rail-related forum have suggested that demolition of the fire-damaged building could easily be more expensive than if it had not been set alight.  That's because of the likelihood of asbestos debris, and the risk of heat-related weakening of previously sound brick/masonry and metal structural elements.

 

DevonLive has reported that the local fire & rescue service has confirmed that the fire was started deliberately.  Unsurprisingly, no suggestion has yet been put forward as to those responsible.  The article does say that youths had been seen in the buildings on Saturday afternoon.  On the DevonLive live feed it was noted that a small rubbish fire had been set inside the building on Sunday, which the fire & rescue had extinguished.  Looks like it could just be the local neds taking advantage of a building that was about to be demolished to have a bit of fire-raising fun.  (Admittedly it's not completely outwith the realms of possibility that they were put up to it, but I do always try to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind in such situations.)

 

 

As far as the Torquay bank is concerned, its made a splendid restaurant, the big and high banking hall restored is stunning. and I would guess far better than the bank had left it if it was like others I visited.  The carriage shed a big open space !! just like supermarkets, but equally could be partitioned off/subdivided into multiple properties, or renovated into dwellings . 


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#39 hayfield

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 15:02

having said that, one build near to me has stalled and I know of one main contractor who is having 'difficulties' getting his bill paid.

 

 

No doubt they are hoping for a better exchange rate in the weeks to come !!


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#40 Dava

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 16:44

It may not have any historical significance to you, but it may to others.
Be thankful we live in a country that values the past unlike say Canada who only woke up to the fact that a lot of their history had been bulldozed in the name of progress.
 
Gordon A


Historic timber buildings in the way of new development are especially vulnerable to unexplained fires in parts of Canada.
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#41 Talltim

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 17:27

Timber buildings in general seem to be prone to fire. I’ve see so many photos of grand timber-built hotels on Shorpy with the caption ‘the hotel burnt to the ground 10 years later’
Eg http://www.shorpy.com/node/21347
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#42 John M Upton

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Posted 23 October 2018 - 22:28

Seems to be standard procedure these days.  Got a listed building the local authorities and locals won't let you touch getting in the way of your get rich quick commercial/housing/granny ghetto scheme?  Discretely pass a few quid, a box of matches and a can of petrol to the local NED's and let nature take its course.

 

Oh dear, it has accidentally burnt down beyond saving, ah well, never mind, send in the bulldozer...

 

Numerous old cotton mills etc have gone that way


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#43 dana

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 01:36

Seems to be standard procedure these days.  Got a listed building the local authorities and locals won't let you touch getting in the way of your get rich quick commercial/housing/granny ghetto scheme?  Discretely pass a few quid, a box of matches and a can of petrol to the local NED's and let nature take its course.

 

Oh dear, it has accidentally burnt down beyond saving, ah well, never mind, send in the bulldozer...

 

Numerous old cotton mills etc have gone that way

err not necessarily is that the case 

https://vancouversun...n-heritage-home

 

other fire damage houses that hit the news in BC

https://www.cbc.ca/r...-says-1.4796303

 

https://www.ctvnews....ly-4m-1.4062003



#44 hayfield

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 07:46

Seems to be standard procedure these days.  Got a listed building the local authorities and locals won't let you touch getting in the way of your get rich quick commercial/housing/granny ghetto scheme?  Discretely pass a few quid, a box of matches and a can of petrol to the local NED's and let nature take its course.

 

Oh dear, it has accidentally burnt down beyond saving, ah well, never mind, send in the bulldozer...

 

Numerous old cotton mills etc have gone that way

 

 

John

 

This might be the case for the odd unscrupulous lone wolf developer, but when it comes to multi nationals I doubt if this is the case. For a start too many employees to keep quiet and far safer to use legal methods

 

If it is a case of arson I would guess its some form of lowlife doing it for the kick they get from destroying things. 


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#45 boxbrownie

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 17:39

Police have charged five “young teenagers” with arson.......

Edited by boxbrownie, 24 October 2018 - 17:39 .

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#46 E3109

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 17:46

Seems to be standard procedure these days.  Got a listed building the local authorities and locals won't let you touch getting in the way of your get rich quick commercial/housing/granny ghetto scheme?  Discretely pass a few quid, a box of matches and a can of petrol to the local NED's and let nature take its course.
 
Oh dear, it has accidentally burnt down beyond saving, ah well, never mind, send in the bulldozer...
 
Numerous old cotton mills etc have gone that way


A number of signal boxes have gone the same way, although I couldn't possibly pass comment on whether these were conspiracies or not their demise was 'convenient' in some cases.

#47 88D

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 17:54

Convenient?


Perhaps it’s a convenience store? Hat, coat and cheerio.

#48 Mallard60022

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 16:03

In other words, we think "they built things to last" because most of the stuff that they didn't build so well hasn't survived for us to see.

 

A fine example of Survivorship Bias.

Well OK then, however there is one hell of a lot of stuff the real builders constructed that lives to this day; St Pancras and the Hotel, various engineering items such as bridges (Royal Albert Bridge for example), even minor structures. Not just on the railway either. 

Contractors that did railway work on secondary railways were probably as 'skimping' as many Contractors are today? 

Phil


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#49 Haymarket47

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 22:56

....... ah, the best today's architects can produce eh ? .......... hopefully better than the best eyesore they managed to produce for the Scottish Parliament building ..........


And you are an expert on these matters?

#50 brianusa

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 23:38

Police have charged five “young teenagers” with arson.......


Why am I not surprised :punish:

 

Brian.













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