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Wishlist poll - industrial locomotive additional


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Evening, chaps and chapesses,

 

I'm sure we're all aware of the poll that is running. There is a link to it in the banner across the forum right now. If you haven't seen it, here is the link to the poll. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/poll/index.php?sid=99738&lang=en

 

I looked it. There are sections for locos, coaches, wagons etc. It begins with locomotives but, having gone through all the locomotive sections and onto the coaches, I could see no section for industrial locomotives and questioned this in the thread for the poll. There is an industrial loco section - you will find it on the very last page of the poll. To be frank, it's hopeless. Unlike the rest of the poll, where items are very specific, even down to particular running nuimbers and diagram numbers of coaches and wagons, the industrial locomotives are not even listed by manufacturer, let alone model/class. They are so vague as to be simply about the wheel arrangement and the water tank type. Having the choice "0-6-0ST" doesn't mean anything - you could be voting for a tiny 1860s Manning Wardle contractor's type, such as a class I, or you could be voting for something huge and from sixty years later,, such as the Peckett OX3. They also have a choice of "petrol/diesel", which is even more vague with possibly an even greater time difference.

 

This is the last post from Brian, one of the chaps involved in the poll - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/138339-qa-the-wishlist-poll-2018/?p=3339550 You might want to scroll up to see our exchange of posts but what it comes down to is that the chaps organising the poll know nothing about industrials and if we are to have actual prototypes included next time around they need help.

 

I'm not going to put up a list just of my own particular suggestions so let's discuss it and I will put forward suggestions to Brian, made here by industrial railway enthusiasts and modellers.

 

I suggest that we break it down into periods to begin with. That would be when a particular type was first used/built. Someone has to start so let us use the follwing.

 

Steam - 1875--1899, 1900 - 1922, 1923 - 1945, 1946 onwards.

 

Petrol - 1900-1922, 1923- 1945.

 

Diesel - 1923 - 1945, 1946 - 1966, 1966 onwards.

 

For each period we ought to have types of differing size and power. Different uses, perhaps?

 

They also have "crane tank" and "Fireless" as choices, so we ought to put forward some actual prototypes to choose from.

 

The criteria for adding something to the poll seems a bit vague and doesn't seem to be affected by something being rare or unusual. 

 

Although most of us may know what a particular type looks like it would be helpful if you can also illustrate your suggestions but please bear in mind the forum rules on copyright and how some people can be a bit touchy about the subject, so if you are going to use a picture that is not your own, please put in a link to the photo on the internet and don't copy and paste the actual photo here. :nono:

 

We may even have to run a poll about what gets put forward for the poll but let's see if anyone's interested first. :drag:

Edited by Ruston
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Very much agree "Ruston" but not really sure how to break the groups down.

 

My preference is for "newer" industrial locos from either the NCB era post 1947, or for other operations of a similar timeframe up to BR transition era - in the West Midlands and Staffordshire.

 

Examples would be Hunslet 16 inch and Bagnall delights from that same era, through to diesels like the Bagnall DL2 (Class 04 / Drewry clone), and the Hams Hall RSH 0-6-0s.

 

Liveries would probably need to be generic Black, dark green, mid green, light green, blue and red, but that really wouldn't help retailers, and that is without considering lettering, numbers, names etc.

 

interesting to hear what others have to say on this subject but there are some crossover opportunities like the Barclay 0-4-0 diesels of which BR and industry had examples. The preserved one at Chasewater is for example numbered as a BR loco even though it is from an industrial owner.

http://www.chasewaterrailway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/RobAndersonschasewaterphotos-18.jpg

Another Chasewater resident is the Brush 0-4-0 once again featuring different cabside windows and creating a minefield for the manufacturer and retailer. http://ukrailways1970tilltoday.me.uk/Chasewater_green_0-4-0.jpg.

An interesting type for me would be the big GEC diesels which worked for various operations.  I recall the NCB ones at Littletons in Staffordshire which are mentioned here, but have also worked for BSC operations in the northeast too

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61850-boscomoor-sidings-and-the-littleton-colliery-branch-staffordshire/page-3

 

Not sure how to categorise though "Ruston"

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Hello everyone

 

Many thanks to Ruston for starting this thread. May I put a couple of matters in context, please?

 

The link at the top of the page takes you to an index of PDFs to The Guide. Industrials are in Category 19 (with London Underground being the last at 20).

 

A few years ago, we were asked if we would run categories for Industrial and Underground and we responded to that. As we didn't know how they would fare, we added them at the bottom of our already established listing style and have maintained that style for consistency. There is no absolutely precise way of listing and we allude to that in The Guide notes. For example, there are steam locos in the Underground section as well as in the General Railway Service category.

 

A sub-team was formed to look at how we might list Industrials. Some of us have some idea about the subject but none of us is an 'expert'. Hence, we contacted the IRS and had a long discussion with an officer leading to five drafts - it was after that that we felt we could not come up with a coherent list so took the 'generic' route.

 

Not ideal - but you had six items in The Top 50 in 2016.

 

We really do look forward to improving the category.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

Edited by BMacdermott
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I'm not sure if this will be terribly helpful, but it's something I've been thinking about in light of the recent developments in industrial locos, including:

Hornby Sentinel

Model Rail USA Tank (sort of)

DJModels Austerity

Hornby Peckett W4

Hatton's Andrew Barclays

 

Hopefully this helps with a renewed interest in industrial railways by consumers and manufacturers.

 

It's also probably a contributing factor that the chosen prototypes were made in large numbers and sold to many concerns, meaning the same or similar tooling can be used and re-liveried, and thus sold in greater numbers.

The other thing they seem to go for is something iconic or very unusual, like the Stirling Single or APT-E by Rapido, that has a novelty factor. This second one seems less likely as I'm not sure there is a general consensus on legendary industrial locos (maybe the Mardy Monster is an exception).

 

So is it worth us trying to think of prototypes that fit into the categories Ruston has suggested, but also fill the criteria of 'one tool, many models' with minor detail and livery differences, allowing for longevity for the manufacturer?

 

My gut feeling is that manufacturers will be unlikely to want to offer a loco that is perceived to be similar to something that exists already, so I doubt that they would go for an 0-6-0ST Andrew Barclay or Peckett, or an 0-6-0DM Sentinel.

 

Could looking for loco types which keep the same mechanical set up (wheelbase, wheel diameter etc) allow for the same mechanisms with only cosmetic differences?

 

The Leeds manufacturers spread their locos far and wide, Manning Wardle offered several 'standard' loco types, which spanned long production periods.

Edited by Corbs
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It's incredibly difficult to categorize such things. The range, variation and designs of industrial locomotives is extremely diverse, with thousands built in the UK in the last century.

 

I'll put forward some suggestions - none of which have been the subject of kits or articles/accurate published drawings.

 

Steam 1900 - 1922 

 

Hawthorn Leslie and later Robert Stephenson and Hawthorns "Munition" class 12'' 0-4-0. Notable examples employed at collieries, gas works, dockside, military and a handful at stone quarries. Several preserved and operational  - Minor detail variation between HL and RSH machines. 

 

post-5089-0-40565500-1540285884_thumb.jpg

 

Avonside 0-4-0ST - smaller variation of the popular B4 design. Widespread and long-lived appeal, several working into the 1970s and subsequently preserved.

 

post-5089-0-03592800-1540286986_thumb.png

 

Steam 1923 - 1945

 

Andrew Barclay 14'' 0-6-0ST - A medium sized 0-6-0. A larger variation of the standard 0-4-0 design. Primarily found at quarries and collieries. Several examples preserved. Detail differences include pre/post war cabs. 

 

post-5089-0-15050600-1540287066_thumb.jpg

 

For me, these all tick the "small and sweet" box which any prospective industrial will need to tick to sell reliably for years to come.

 

 

Paul A. 

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Legendary unusual industrial locos?

UK industrial garratt for starters, doxford crane tank?

 

You're right, I fear that the industrial garratt could be a very expensive model which may not outweigh the novelty factor? The crane tank is one that crossed my mind, along with the other type (Dubs?)

 

 

It's incredibly difficult to categorize such things. The range, variation and designs of industrial locomotives is extremely diverse, with thousands built in the UK in the last century.

 

I'll put forward some suggestions - none of which have been the subject of kits or articles/accurate published drawings.

 

Steam 1900 - 1922 

 

Hawthorn Leslie and later Robert Stephenson and Hawthorns "Munition" class 12'' 0-4-0. Notable examples employed at collieries, gas works, dockside, military and a handful at stone quarries. Several preserved and operational  - Minor detail variation between HL and RSH machines. 

 

attachicon.gifDSC_0033.JPG

 

Avonside 0-4-0ST - smaller variation of the popular B4 design. Widespread and long-lived appeal, several working into the 1970s and subsequently preserved.

 

attachicon.gifAE barrington.png

 

Steam 1923 - 1945

 

Andrew Barclay 14'' 0-6-0ST - A medium sized 0-6-0. A larger variation of the standard 0-4-0 design. Primarily found at quarries and collieries. Several examples preserved. Detail differences include pre/post war cabs. 

 

attachicon.gif11086197_10152383392842824_1158619584_o.jpg

 

For me, these all tick the "small and sweet" box which any prospective industrial will need to tick to sell reliably for years to come.

 

 

Paul A. 

 

I would certainly agree with the first two (especially if they were sold to many concerns), the third (whilst I would love one) I fear manufacturers may feel is too similar to the Hattons model?

 

I was wondering about the Avonside B4 and B3 types, was their deployment very widespread? The B4 could incorporate rounded and square tank variants.

 

I do wonder if something like the Manning Wardle IC 0-6-0ST locos could work?

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My suggestion would be something like a Manning Wardle K class or L class. I suggest these for a number of reasons.

 

1. There is no pre-WW2 industrial 0-6-0 on the market in 00, unless you count the Golden Valley Barclay.

2. They were widespread.

3. They had a long period in service - Sharpthorne on the Bluebell Railway, for instance, worked from 1877 to 1958. Thus, you could appeal to people modelling from the Victorian era right up to the preservation scene.

4. There is some crossover appeal with freelance and light railway modellers - they were used on industrial lines, but were also common on light railways.

5. A number of Manning Wardle 0-6-0s are preserved.

6. They're small enough that every layout has room for one.

7. They're visually distinctive and have the "cute" factor.

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I agree. What would be the diesel equivalent of that? Something with a long(ish) production run and widespread use. I know Oxford do the Janus but maybe one of the Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0DM locos with the big long bonnets and steam loco chimneys, which date from the 1940s I think.

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You're right, I fear that the industrial garratt could be a very expensive model which may not outweigh the novelty factor? The crane tank is one that crossed my mind, along with the other type (Dubs?)

I think more people have layouts where the industrial garratt would be appropriate than layouts suitable for the LMS one, and there are more livery variations, wider geographical spread and a preserved one.

 

The hudswell Clarke 060 diesels are pretty charismatic locos and would make a good candidate, as are the Armstrong Whitworth 4 coupled ones. A 40hp simplex or ruston 48DS might do well but would perhaps be trickier to make it run well in 00 RTR due to size.

 

Agree with the Manning wardle and the idea that smaller, older industrial/contractors types might be popular on light railway models.

 

Heftier 6 coupled designs have a narrower field of operations, being more of a pure industrial type more suited to somewhere with heavy traffic (coal/steel etc), whereas a 4 coupled design could be used for shunting at a wider range of locations.

 

Twizell at tanfield is a lovely design but may be unique. I do think picking something preserved is a good idea, both for scanning and because it might sell a bit more to those familiar with the prototype.

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I'm not sure if this will be terribly helpful, but it's something I've been thinking about in light of the recent developments in industrial locos, including:

Hornby Sentinel

Model Rail USA Tank (sort of)

DJModels Austerity

Hornby Peckett W4

Hatton's Andrew Barclays

 

Hopefully this helps with a renewed interest in industrial railways by consumers and manufacturers.

 

It's also probably a contributing factor that the chosen prototypes were made in large numbers and sold to many concerns, meaning the same or similar tooling can be used and re-liveried, and thus sold in greater numbers.

The other thing they seem to go for is something iconic or very unusual, like the Stirling Single or APT-E by Rapido, that has a novelty factor. This second one seems less likely as I'm not sure there is a general consensus on legendary industrial locos (maybe the Mardy Monster is an exception).

 

So is it worth us trying to think of prototypes that fit into the categories Ruston has suggested, but also fill the criteria of 'one tool, many models' with minor detail and livery differences, allowing for longevity for the manufacturer?

 

My gut feeling is that manufacturers will be unlikely to want to offer a loco that is perceived to be similar to something that exists already, so I doubt that they would go for an 0-6-0ST Andrew Barclay or Peckett, or an 0-6-0DM Sentinel.

 

Could looking for loco types which keep the same mechanical set up (wheelbase, wheel diameter etc) allow for the same mechanisms with only cosmetic differences?

 

The Leeds manufacturers spread their locos far and wide, Manning Wardle offered several 'standard' loco types, which spanned long production periods.

Hunslet 16" has same wheelbase as the austerity, but with smaller 3'9" wheels.

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I think more people have layouts where the industrial garratt would be appropriate than layouts suitable for the LMS one, and there are more livery variations, wider geographical spread and a preserved one.

 

 

I thought that there were only 4 standard gauge industrial Garratts built for use in the UK. Unless I am wrong I wouldn't say that 4 locomotives gives a great variety of liveries. With two working in South Wales (BP 6172 for Vivian & Sons copper works, at Cardiff and BP 6779 at Guest, Keen & Baldwin, also at Cardiff) and two in the Midlands (BP 6729 for Sneyd Colliery at Burslem and BP 6841 for Baddesley Colliery) I don't think it can be said that they had a wide geographic spread.

 

I would put them down as oddities. Very large, unusual, and not at all typical of UK industrial engines. I can't see there being a great demand for something like that when there aren't that many people with the space for the kind of layout to suit them.

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We're getting off topic here - my point is that the LMS garratts were plain black their whole lives, and were restricted to working only a few routes (mostly based at toton - their high axle loading and power kept them on main lines) pulling trains longer than most layouts can handle, yet they were produced RTR - an oddity, but a collectable and a notable one. They're what would be described in the wildlife world as charismatic megafauna - everyone knows what a panda is but they're a pointless oddity found in a very specific environment.

 

Back to industrial garratts, The Vivian garratt was transferred to ici billingham according to durrant, so you get s Wales, Midlands and north east (and bressingham?), several different colours, plus a plausible extra few supplied to any fictional line with severe curves and gradients.

In general though widely used, attractive standard designs ought to be good commercial prospects, and that is what has been chosen so far (peckett and Barclay), although at some point people will want something other than small four coupled saddle tanks. Maybe the Hunslet MSC 060t Jazzer (as preserved in the form of lady armaghdale)? They got a little further afield than the MSC system too.

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We're getting off topic here - my point is that the LMS garratts were plain black their whole lives, and were restricted to working only a few routes (mostly based at toton - their high axle loading and power kept them on main lines) pulling trains longer than most layouts can handle, yet they were produced RTR - an oddity, but a collectable and a notable one. They're what would be described in the wildlife world as charismatic megafauna - everyone knows what a panda is but they're a pointless oddity found in a very specific environment.

 

Back to industrial garratts, The Vivian garratt was transferred to ici billingham according to durrant, so you get s Wales, Midlands and north east (and bressingham?), several different colours, plus a plausible extra few supplied to any fictional line with severe curves and gradients.

In general though widely used, attractive standard designs ought to be good commercial prospects, and that is what has been chosen so far (peckett and Barclay), although at some point people will want something other than small four coupled saddle tanks. Maybe the Hunslet MSC 060t Jazzer (as preserved in the form of lady armaghdale)? They got a little further afield than the MSC system too.

Please no industrial Garratts until at least several years after I have built my Backwoods kit ! For the same reason no Doxford crane tank either because then I'd have an obviously HO one and every Tom Dick and Harry would have one that was the correct scale...

 

Come to think of it there is nothing on my wish list - I've always enjoyed the fact that in the industrial world, if you want one you will have to make it somehow or other. Separates the Men from the boys and the Women from the girls does it not? Or am I hopelessly out of touch??

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Hello everyone

 

In our generic listing, we refer to:

 

Industrial 0-4-0+0-4-0T - Garratt

 

It has fared as below in previous Polls (with 2018 Results due out early November):

 

2014 - 9th of 16 listed (Middle Polling, but at the high end)

2015 - 10th of 17 listed (High Polling)

2016 - 13th of 17 listed (High Polling)

 

I hope that helps.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

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Come to think of it there is nothing on my wish list - I've always enjoyed the fact that in the industrial world, if you want one you will have to make it somehow or other. Separates the Men from the boys and the Women from the girls does it not? Or am I hopelessly out of touch??

 

That ability shall not be taken away, unless the RTR Direct Action Group does a raid on your workroom....

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Strange that a lot of the locos listed have been/still are available as kits (such as Hunslet 16", the Avonside B3 and B4, Manning Wardles, Ruston 48DS et al)

 

Perhaps some off  the wall type locos - Hunslet Appleby Frod Bo Bos for example, would be of interest? 

 As has been said  though the Manning Wardle kits were a bit different ( and not so easy to source in 4mm any more so these would be a good one to go for.

 

Baz

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