Atlas Editions class 81 and Lima coach projects (1:87 scale)

[47137]

I am looking for a mechanism to fit into my 1:87 scale class 81 engine by Atlas Editions. Main dimensions:

 

Bogie wheelbase 37.5 mm

Bogie centres 110.3 mm

Wheel diameter 14 mm

 

The donor chassis could be 00 or H0. I really want something with a central motor driving the bogies through cardan shafts, and capable of being wired for DCC (motor brush not grounded to the chassis). I have a Tenshodo motor bogie which would fit, but it is not powerful enough unless I use two, and it seems a fiddle to rewire for DCC.

 

I wonder, could anyone could suggest a RTR donor, quite possibly in 4mm scale? If the bogie wheelbase was 1 or 2 mm too short, I expect I would still be pleased with the overall effect.

 

- Richard.

Edited December 10, 2018 by 47137

[CloggyDog]

I've seen a couple of motorisations mentioned on the British H0 Scale society's egroup, with most using the Hornby (ex-Lima) Class 67 chassis, suitably modified. The bogie wheelbase matches the 81 in H0 and the bogie centres can be fairly easily adjusted to suit. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by CloggyDog

[Joseph_Pestell]

Those look rather nice.

[47137]

I've seen a couple of motorisations mentioned on the British H0 Scale society's egroup, with most using the Hornby (ex-Lima) Class 67 chassis, suitably modified. The bogie wheelbase matches the 81 in H0 and the bogie centres can be fairly easily adjusted to suit. 

 

I have found the service sheet for the Hornby 67 ... central motor and drive to all axles, so this looks like a sensible model to start from.

 

Many thanks.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

I've seen a couple of motorisations mentioned on the British H0 Scale society's egroup, with most using the Hornby (ex-Lima) Class 67 chassis, suitably modified. The bogie wheelbase matches the 81 in H0 and the bogie centres can be fairly easily adjusted to suit. 

 

Alan: well ... I've bought a Hornby class 67, and partly dismantled it. I can imagine two possible approaches: modify the Hornby chassis to provide drive to only one bogie (and also reduce its width a great deal), or graft the two bogies onto a completely different chassis with the correct bogie centres. Perhaps there is such a chassis in the Life Like / Proto 2000 range - I'll keep my eye open. Either way, I should get plenty of class 67 spares to sell on one day.

 

The class 67 runs well. If I could make a new chassis (essentially, a rigid floor) to hold the Hornby motor and both its bogies and shortened drive shafts, the resulting class 81 could be rather good. This is a project for a rainy day ... with the chassis done, the body is ready-made.

 

Edit: I've just bought a chassis for a Proto 2000 GP7. Bogie centres are within 2 mm of the scale distance for the class 81.

 

- Richard.

Edited November 12, 2018 by 47137

[47137]

I have settled on the Hornby class 67 bogies and motor in a styrene chassis. I'm not sure if using styrene is taking liberties with the hobby, but it seems to work. My chassis is a thin cellular box, two layers of styrene with strips and air gaps between them.

 

 

The motor is resting loosely in place, and when I connect some leads, the chassis trundles backwards and forwards. I don't understand how this happens - I expected the motor to lift itself out of its cradle.

 

 

Anyway- the body fits into place and I hope to take the buffer and underframe detail and the bogie sideframes from the Atlas Editions model. I'll save the GP7 chassis for a DMU.

 

- Richard.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The motor is resting loosely in place, and when I connect some leads, the chassis trundles backwards and forwards. I don't understand how this happens - I expected the motor to lift itself out of its cradle.

 

All down to Mr Newton and his 3 laws of motion.

 

Mike.

[47137]

All down to Mr Newton and his 3 laws of motion.

 

Mike.

 

Well ... this is a bit fundamental (!)

 

It seems to me, if the model is overloaded, be it by a train too heavy or a steep gradient or pushing against the buffers, the wheels spin. So the motor mount only exists to

 

(a) hold everything together when I turn the model upside down, and 

(b) allow the motor to stall if a part of the drive train jams

 

Is this right or am I missing something?

 

- Richard.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Well ... this is a bit fundamental (!)

 

It seems to me, if the model is overloaded, be it by a train too heavy or a steep gradient or pushing against the buffers, the wheels spin. So the motor mount only exists to

 

(a) hold everything together when I turn the model upside down, and 

(b) allow the motor to stall if a part of the drive train jams

 

Is this right or am I missing something?

 

- Richard.

 

A bit of weight over the bogies wouldn't go amiss, give the drive system something to do.

 

Mike.

[47137]

A bit of weight over the bogies wouldn't go amiss, give the drive system something to do.

 

Mike.

There isn't much room to spare, but I will do my best:

 

Perhaps some sheet lead under the cab roofs, and inverted U shapes of lead above the universal joints. This is supposing the decoder will go in vertically, beside one of the flywheels.

 

The chassis now has sides to enclose the motor and add some strength:

 

I've added the underframe details too, so my latest test assembly looks pretty much like the original static display model except the wheels are shiny:

 

 

- Richard.

[47137]

I have added 45 grams of lead centred on each bogie pivot. Ten grams each side and 25 grams on the top:

 

 

This is all I can manage - the flat roof restricts the vertical space to add any more.. The bogies themselves weight barely 21 grams each, so hopefully this is enough to make for better traction.

 

The 'W' pencilled onto the side here is 'W' for 'windows', to remind me to fit the body the right way round. The other side has a 'G' for 'grills'. It would be more business-like to label this as 'no.1' or 'no.2' but I don't know which end is which on an 81. I wonder if anyone can help?

 

Not visible in the photo but I put the bits and pieces of underframe in by copying their locations on the original model. Then I painted the underframe and bogie sideframes, and then I duly pulled out two bits of underframe so the bogies could actually turn. So much for copying a 'scale' static model.

 

Progress has now stopped until the decoder arrives. I expect to put this in before the motor, and then the motor will go in with the bogies. The body shell is a neat fit onto the chassis and should stay put with friction.

 

- Richard.

[BernardTPM]

Looking at the grille side, the No.1 end is to the left.

[E3109]

Aye, No2 End is the pantograph end on classes 81-87.

[BernardTPM]

Though of course, w

 

Aye, No2 End is the pantograph end on classes 81-87.

though when built AL1 to AL5 had two pantographs...

Edited November 19, 2018 by BernardTPM

[47137]

Looking at the grille side, the No.1 end is to the left.

I think, replies do not come better than this.

 

I also think, seeing an engine you have made yourself running on the track for the first time must be one of the most satisfying times in the hobby.

 

I ended up putting the decoder under the 'floorpan' between the largest pieces of underframe.

 

 

 

 

I think the model is crying out for some working headlamps to go in those blanked off headcodes but in the meantime I have a historic AC electric with air and vacuum brakes. It even sounds like an AC electric though I suppose with DCC it actually is. Very pleased.

 

- Richard.

Edited November 22, 2018 by 47137

[BernardTPM]

Thanks!

Those lights are only marker lights rather than powerful headlights so don't need to be too bright. Not many (if any) of the earlier AC electrics were ever fitted with actual headlights. This is about the level of illumination to aim for in dull conditions.

[47137]

... and really, too dim to show on a sunny day. My layout is set in early June, so I think I'll stop before attempting the marker lights.

 

My layout includes a "test section" being a 24 to 18 inch reverse curve on a 1:20 gradient. At the moment, the engine derails going downhill with no.1 end leading. Turn the model round and it goes up hill and down hill without a hitch. I need to look carefully at the backs of the buffer beams, or of course accept it as it is.

 

The model ended up a bit too true to scale and I took two more cylinders off the underframe to let it go round a tight curve. Also the guard irons were skimming the tops of the rails so these got shortened to allow for the odd imperfect rail joint.

 

I've seen a couple of motorisations mentioned on the British H0 Scale society's egroup, with most using the Hornby (ex-Lima) Class 67 chassis, suitably modified. The bogie wheelbase matches the 81 in H0 and the bogie centres can be fairly easily adjusted to suit. 

 

I bought my class 67 new (a cheap livery from a box shifter) and looking around to shift the spare parts I realise I now understand this post properly :-). There are at least two chassis for the class 67. My model had a chunky casting running the whole length of the model. Difficult to modify without a milling machine. Earlier versions had a plastic chassis with a steel weight inside. Easy to adapt with a saw and a knife.

 

Anyway ... I have a rake of Lima Mk2 coaches with a Mk1 catering vehicle, all in blue and grey, and now a period engine to haul them.

 

- Richard.

[BernardTPM]

That should look really good. If you can get a couple of the Lima H0 Mk1 BSKs you could cross-chop them into a BG and SK/TSO; the BG in particular would complete a mixed Mk.1/Mk.2 rake very nicely.

[47137]

Well ... adding a BG would make an Inter-City train as I remember them from the mid-1970s. There always seemed to be a BG in every set. Also the BG is a useful vehicle for my layout, this is supposed to be a freight-only operation with a tram.

 

The Lima Mk1 is problematic for me because the windows are wrong, they are too short and too narrow and this shows. I am hacking a pair of them into a BCK and there is a glimpse of this here:

 

But this coach has laser-cut sides, I drew these to scale and York Modelmaking cut them out for me. This coach will be great on its own but will look awkward with other Lima Mk1s. Conversely, the Lima Mk2 is pretty much a scale model after you lower it onto its bogies.

 

So my dilemma is, if I build a new Mk1 coach (especially a BG), should it be a "scale model" (new sides) or a cut and shut of Lima bodies? I'm tempted to try the cut and shut because the Mk2 train will have only this and the buffet. It won't run with my BCK. I will get a Playcraft Mk1 brake second in a few weeks' time. If it turns out this has bigger windows, my Mk1 hacks could be Playcraft sides on Lima frames and bogies. It is wonderful to work in a scale where you can pick up coaches for £5 or £7 a throw :-)

 

I will add (I'm afraid) ... I am aware of a company claiming to sell etched brass sides, but I have failed to actually place an order. Their business model is very much their own; they don't do "delivery dates", and seem willing to discuss only items they call "unsold stock we have left over". Stupid. However, laser-cut plastic should be easier to paint.

 

- Richard.

Edited November 23, 2018 by 47137

[BernardTPM]

The Lima Mk1 is problematic for me because the windows are wrong, they are too short and too narrow and this shows.

Ah, so not just me then! The Playcraft coaches are a funny scale too, but differently; I think they've shunted the windows too close together though they look better windows. Two BSKs to a BG might work though they'd need narrowing as they're almost 00 width.

Replacement sides on the Lima shell would probably be the best option.

[47137]

The Lima windows are nearer to TT. I can imagine an O-level maths paper: "if a Lima H0 Mk1 is to TT as a Hornby R157 is to H0, what is the approximate scale of a Bachmann 'Salty'. Justify your answer".

 

- Richard.

[47137]

I have done some test runs. I began with assembling a 12-coach train and removing two 20g weights from the model.

 

(1) The engine pulled the train up a c.1:50 gradient around a 27-inch curve without any trouble.

 

(2) With the engine stopped on the gradient, the engine could start this train with itself on the gradient with a trace of wheelspin.

 

(3) I progressively shortened the train until the engine could propel it up my 1:20 gradient with its 24/18 inch reverse curve, and the train eventually completed its journey with four coaches and a fairly desperate amount of wheelspin.

 

(4) I put the two 20g weights back into the engine and it then propelled a five-coach train up the 1:20 with a tiny bit of wheelspin.

 

So really, I am happy. I cannot imagine ever running a train longer than two coaches during operations, maybe four coaches for an excursion but this would have to be topped and tailed because of the lack of run-round facilities. The class 81 will look best on my temporary oval of Unitrack or a friend's layout with a rake of 6 or 8 mixed mark 1 and mark 2 coaches.

 

- Richard.

 

Edit: I have put a write-up of this project on my blog "Shelf Island".

Edited December 2, 2018 by 47137

[47137]

Well ... adding a BG would make an Inter-City train as I remember them from the mid-1970s. There always seemed to be a BG in every set. Also the BG is a useful vehicle for my layout, this is supposed to be a freight-only operation with a tram.

 

The Lima Mk1 is problematic for me because the windows are wrong, they are too short and too narrow and this shows. I am hacking a pair of them into a BCK and there is a glimpse of this here:

DSCF8555.jpg

 

But this coach has laser-cut sides, I drew these to scale and York Modelmaking cut them out for me. This coach will be great on its own but will look awkward with other Lima Mk1s. Conversely, the Lima Mk2 is pretty much a scale model after you lower it onto its bogies.

 

So my dilemma is, if I build a new Mk1 coach (especially a BG), should it be a "scale model" (new sides) or a cut and shut of Lima bodies? I'm tempted to try the cut and shut because the Mk2 train will have only this and the buffet. It won't run with my BCK. I will get a Playcraft Mk1 brake second in a few weeks' time. If it turns out this has bigger windows, my Mk1 hacks could be Playcraft sides on Lima frames and bogies. It is wonderful to work in a scale where you can pick up coaches for £5 or £7 a throw :-)

 

Ah, so not just me then! The Playcraft coaches are a funny scale too, but differently; I think they've shunted the windows too close together though they look better windows. Two BSKs to a BG might work though they'd need narrowing as they're almost 00 width.

Replacement sides on the Lima shell would probably be the best option.

 

I am having a go at a BG from two Lima BSKs. I am not sure whether the Lima models are to scale length, so to make a 57 ft coach from two 64 ft ones as easily as possible I have simply reduced the overall length by a scale 7 feet. This only took an evening. My chosen paint stripper is meths, this seems perfect for Lima paint. The model is now in pieces again while I lower it onto its bogies and fill the cracks and gaps.

 

- Richard.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by 47137

[47137]

I fancy painting the BG in rail blue.

 

I don't suppose anyone knows ... was the overall BR blue livery applied to only the newspaper conversions of the BGs? It would be easier to do, and I remember seeing it on Wolverhampton - Euston trains in the early 1980s ... but were these all-blue vehicles true BGs or the newspaper conversions with the guard's compartment stripped out?

 

- Richard.

[Andrew F]

Looking at the Colin Marsden coach recognition book, it states that in most cases the all blue ones (NCV) had the guards compartments removed. I don't think they ever had B4 bogies either. I'm not totally sure but think only the NE(A/V/X) had B4's so they could be used on the 100mph expresses.

 

You may also want to alter the gangway ends on yours to remove all but the bottom step and shorten the vertical conduit as these should be just handrails in this era.

 

Nice projects by the way; something I'd considered too. Any thoughts for flushglazing for the mk1's and 2's? or converting the Lima mk2's to 2C?