New dcc wiring set up

[Applesandpears]

Hi all

New to the forum so hello

 

I'm looking to wire up my old layout for dcc I have a Bachmann ez controller to start with and want to run bus wiring around the layout my question is where ?

 

I currently have power clips on my points but I'm guessing with the right wiring I can get rid of these.

 

I have attached a crude drawing of the layout to support its approx 8ft long each section and about 2 ft wide

 

I'm planning on soldering the wire and attaching with droppers

 

Any help would be much appreciated as I'm not sure the of the best approach

Thanks

[JST]

Some of this will depend on what sort of points you have, e.g are they Peco Electrofrog? As a recent newcomer to DCC I followed the advice that every piece of track and all points should have their own droppers. Glad I did. I also prepared all my Electrofrog points for DCC and power the frogs via DCC Concepts ADS8SX decoders.

[Oldddudders]

DC and DCC are no different in basic wiring requirements. As has been said above, every piece of rail ideally requires a feed, known as a dropper, preferably soldered to it. And if you think about your layout in DC terms, where every rail is either pos or neg, then the same principle works for DCC, even though the rails have a more complex current in them. Most people find that two contrasting colours of droppers, one for each ‘pole’, ease identification under the baseboard as to which bus is to be joined. Bus wire should be meaty stuff, while droppers can be much thinner - making soldering to the rail easier.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Oldddudders

[Applesandpears]

Thanks for your replies so far

With regards to the points I genuinely don't know which ones they are ! I inherited the layout and the layout is pretty much complete. I have attached a picture of one of the points (they are all the same) can anyone tell from the picture if it is live or insulated ?

 

I guess once I know this will help with the wiring solution

[Phil S]

It's a nice photograph which can illustrate some of the possible problems quite well.

They look like Peco Insulfrog - with 2 added wire links to give a 'permanent' connection from the fixed Stock rails to the switch rails (moving blades)

- the latter done to avoid intermittent contact between them when they are used 'as electric switches; to direct power into the selected route on the right.

 

notice the construction around the Frog (check rails) and Vee itself... 

Although the 2 rails of the V are electrically isolated from each other - notice how close they are to each other - and then run some typical wheelsets over them - especially if you have older Hornby 'steamroller' wheels - which have been used even in recent years..... these will short the 2 rails together ..

....and this may often have happened in analogue use but

a/ the track to the right may not always have power already connected to them ... whilst with dcc they are likely to be ALWAYS live ..

. and

b/ with a dcc controller, the possible short circuit current from the controller may be much more than the typical 1A of an analogue controller, and the heating/damage effect may be corresondingly greater - which is WHY a DCC controller will protect itself with a fast, and non-resetting  cutout ... resulting in ALL trains stopping ... whilst in analogue, it is likely that only 1 train was affected, the current was smaller, and the trip may have been slow-acting or auto-resetting so that the driver didn't even notice the problem !!!

THIS IS WHY PECO ADVISE (even in analogue use) to INSULATE to the RIGHT of the V shown in the photograph - whether, insulfrog (where it is technically an option) or with live-frog - where it is very necessary - to avoid a short to a powered track on the right.

 

In the early days of Digital (Zero 1 and Airfix's MTC) - Airfix (first to market) advocated clear varnish over the V to provide some additional insulation - and it worked .... until it was cleaned off with a track cleaning rubber:  The Long term solution is to treat all Peco Insulfrog Points as if they were Live frog !!...  (Other makes use a larger insulating gap, which avoids most wheelsets shorting the rails at the V ... and Set track from other makes also use a larger dead-frog area.  {Good comparison examples being FLeischmann Profitrack and Roco}

 

The other potential problem in the track shown is that the check rails by the V also need the insulation they are made with, on the left, to stop them being connected to the switching rails to their left --- as they are the opposite side of the track ... and again some wheelsets MIGHT cause a potential problem there.

 

'And finally': The switch rails are best (most reliable electrically) when 'bonded' to the adjacent stock rails  - as here with the spring wire clips

...   and when the V is then physically a single piece electrically (NOT as in this photo) - the V needs to be separated and switched electrically, separately - and nowadays an electronic frog switch such as from gaugemaster is a good, mechanical alignment free, on-demand, switch.

 

As always, I would advocate the use of a multimeter to check conductivity and isolation

Edited November 9, 2018 by Phil S

[Applesandpears]

It's a nice photograph which can illustrate some of the possible problems quite well.

They look like Peco Insulfrog - with 2 added wire links to give a 'permanent' connection from the fixed Stock rails to the switch rails (moving blades)

- the latter done to avoid intermittent contact between them when they are used 'as electric switches; to direct power into the selected route on the right.

 

notice the construction around the Frog (check rails) and Vee itself...

Although the 2 rails of the V are electrically isolated from each other - notice how close they are to each other - and then run some typical wheelsets over them - especially if you have older Hornby 'steamroller' wheels - which have been used even in recent years..... these will short the 2 rails together ..

....and this may often have happened in analogue use but

a/ the track to the right may not always have power already connected to them ... whilst with dcc they are likely to be ALWAYS live ..

. and

b/ with a dcc controller, the possible short circuit current from the controller may be much more than the typical 1A of an analogue controller, and the heating/damage effect may be corresondingly greater - which is WHY a DCC controller will protect itself with a fast, and non-resetting cutout ... resulting in ALL trains stopping ... whilst in analogue, it is likely that only 1 train was affected, the current was smaller, and the trip may have been slow-acting or auto-resetting so that the driver didn't even notice the problem !!!

THIS IS WHY PECO ADVISE (even in analogue use) to INSULATE to the RIGHT of the V shown in the photograph - whether, insulfrog (where it is technically an option) or with live-frog - where it is very necessary - to avoid a short to a powered track on the right.

 

In the early days of Digital (Zero 1 and Airfix's MTC) - Airfix (first to market) advocated clear varnish over the V to provide some additional insulation - and it worked .... until it was cleaned off with a track cleaning rubber: The Long term solution is to treat all Peco Insulfrog Points as if they were Live frog !!... (Other makes use a larger insulating gap, which avoids most wheelsets shorting the rails at the V ... and Set track from other makes also use a larger dead-frog area. {Good comparison examples being FLeischmann Profitrack and Roco}

 

The other potential problem in the track shown is that the check rails by the V also need the insulation they are made with, on the left, to stop them being connected to the switching rails to their left --- as they are the opposite side of the track ... and again some wheelsets MIGHT cause a potential problem there.

 

'And finally': The switch rails are best (most reliable electrically) when 'bonded' to the adjacent stock rails - as here with the spring wire clips

... and when the V is then physically a single piece electrically (NOT as in this photo) - the V needs to be separated and switched electrically, separately - and nowadays an electronic frog switch such as from gaugemaster is a good, mechanical alignment free, on-demand, switch.

 

As always, I would advocate the use of a multimeter to check conductivity and isolation

[Applesandpears]

 

It's a nice photograph which can illustrate some of the possible problems quite well.

They look like Peco Insulfrog - with 2 added wire links to give a 'permanent' connection from the fixed Stock rails to the switch rails (moving blades)

- the latter done to avoid intermittent contact between them when they are used 'as electric switches; to direct power into the selected route on the right.

 

notice the construction around the Frog (check rails) and Vee itself...

Although the 2 rails of the V are electrically isolated from each other - notice how close they are to each other - and then run some typical wheelsets over them - especially if you have older Hornby 'steamroller' wheels - which have been used even in recent years..... these will short the 2 rails together ..

....and this may often have happened in analogue use but

a/ the track to the right may not always have power already connected to them ... whilst with dcc they are likely to be ALWAYS live ..

. and

b/ with a dcc controller, the possible short circuit current from the controller may be much more than the typical 1A of an analogue controller, and the heating/damage effect may be corresondingly greater - which is WHY a DCC controller will protect itself with a fast, and non-resetting cutout ... resulting in ALL trains stopping ... whilst in analogue, it is likely that only 1 train was affected, the current was smaller, and the trip may have been slow-acting or auto-resetting so that the driver didn't even notice the problem !!!

THIS IS WHY PECO ADVISE (even in analogue use) to INSULATE to the RIGHT of the V shown in the photograph - whether, insulfrog (where it is technically an option) or with live-frog - where it is very necessary - to avoid a short to a powered track on the right.

 

In the early days of Digital (Zero 1 and Airfix's MTC) - Airfix (first to market) advocated clear varnish over the V to provide some additional insulation - and it worked .... until it was cleaned off with a track cleaning rubber: The Long term solution is to treat all Peco Insulfrog Points as if they were Live frog !!... (Other makes use a larger insulating gap, which avoids most wheelsets shorting the rails at the V ... and Set track from other makes also use a larger dead-frog area. {Good comparison examples being FLeischmann Profitrack and Roco}

 

The other potential problem in the track shown is that the check rails by the V also need the insulation they are made with, on the left, to stop them being connected to the switching rails to their left --- as they are the opposite side of the track ... and again some wheelsets MIGHT cause a potential problem there.

 

'And finally': The switch rails are best (most reliable electrically) when 'bonded' to the adjacent stock rails - as here with the spring wire clips

... and when the V is then physically a single piece electrically (NOT as in this photo) - the V needs to be separated and switched electrically, separately - and nowadays an electronic frog switch such as from gaugemaster is a good, mechanical alignment free, on-demand, switch.

 

As always, I would advocate the use of a multimeter to check conductivity and isolation

Wow ! Thank you so much Phil for your detailed response and time to explain all that.

 

The clips where put in by myself as a trying process when I was playing around.

 

Sooo with regards to the best place to connect the bus wires would you have any suggestions, I can isolate the points as you suggested and remove the clips if required - thanks Phil I know I am asking a lot

[Pete the Elaner]

The best place to connect the bus wires is the underside of the rail roughly where you have put the clips.

The 2 rails of the V are connected to the switch rails underneath. These can be removed & the 2 V rails connected together then powered from a switch because they will need to change polarity when the point is thrown.

The other end of the V rails then need to be isolated from the rest of the layout so the rails beyond would have to be re-fed from the bus wires.

 

Assuming the switch is good, you will then have a point which is much more reliable than an unmodified one regardless of how you power it.