GWR local workings in the Swansea area in the 1930s: carriage formations

[jamespetts]

Can anyone assist with the carriage formations and motive power used on local workings into and out of Swansea High Street in the late 1930s?

[The Johnster]

There are probably plenty of people more qualified than me to comment on this, James, as my limited field of expertise concentrates on the post war period and 50s.  I will be very happy to be corrected, and yourself better informed, by corrections to my ramblings, but since nobody else has thrown their hat into the ring, I'll pick up the baton (loves a mixed metaphor, me), in the hope of provoking those of greater erudition in such matters into an informative discussion.

 

IMHO, there would not have been many local workings as I understand them, 'suburban' type trains with tank engines and non-gangwayed coaches, but such locals as did run would likely have been autos (I know there were some in the 1950s), or non-gangwayed compartment stock, which in the 30s would still include Triang type clerestories, with the motive power being Metros or 517s for the autos, with 48xx when they were built, and possibly 64xx as well, and 57xx panniers with their various 2721/1854 type predecessors for the compartment stock, maybe the odd large prairie, especially for the Porthcawl.  

 

Swansea had and has suburbs, of course, but you couldn't really get to most of them from High Street.  The LMS at Victoria and St Thomas, and the Rhondda & Swansea Bay at Riverside were more in that business.  Trains from High Street went upline towards Cardiff, or downline towards Carmarthen, and were mostly semi-fasts or stoppers with tender engines and corridor stock heading for Cardiff or Carmarthen at lease and often further.  There were, as I have suggested, some of a more local nature, no doubt, including a daily commuter from and to Porthcawl, but by and large trains at High Street looked more main line in nature.

 

This is in part due to High Street's history.  It was originally opened in 1850 along with the rest of the Souh Wales Railway, which was effectively the GWR and worked by them, as a short branch from the South Wales Main Line at Landore.  This betrays the thinking behind the SWR; the purpose was not in those days to tap the industrial and mineral traffic of South Wales, but to pass through as quickly and conveniently as possible on the way from Paddington to Neyland, where you were to catch the steamer to New York.  The GW never really gave up this dream and the Swansea District Line, with plenty of local stations but not served from High Street, was built half a century later in connection with the same traffic, which equally failed to turn up at Fishguard...  High Street was a feeder to the SWML, and never intended to tap local traffic.  We now think of it as the major terminus it is, but the major terminus was supposed to be Neyland!

 

So, if you catch a train from High Street, you go in the up or down direction along the SWML; there was never a direct connection to the Swansea Valley, which you got the train to at St Thomas, or the eastern suburbs, which were served by Riverside along with Port Talbot, the Afan Valley, and Treherbert.  If you were heading for the Neath or Dulais Valleys, or Brecon, you were better off going from St Thomas or High St and change at Neath, and if you were trying to get to the Amman, or North Gower, Victoria was your better option.  Mumbles and Oystermouth had their own railway, and were in the game long before anyone else!

 

There were local stations on the SWML which are long gone now though, Skewen in the up direction, and Cockett and Loughor in the down.  Gowerton survives and Briton Ferry has re-surfaced.  By and large is not intended to imply that there were no local services of any sort out of High Street, just that they were very much in the minority.

Edited November 14, 2018 by The Johnster

[jamespetts]

That is very helpful and very : thank you. The reference to stopping trains hauled by larger engines (43xx? Granges?) and consisting of corridor stock is especially interesting. Do you recall what sort of corridor stock was used in the days before Mk. 1 carriages were introduced? Indeed, were there any non-corridor train workings of which you are aware?

 

The reason for this inquiry is that I am planning a layout representing a terminus with two twin track mainlines approaching it and merging at the terminus itself. It is not intended to represent a specific, real location, but is intended to be able to be readily convertible in era and location (between ~1910-1939 and between the south coast of England and South Wales) by changing the station name boards, signalboxes, signals and rolling stock to allow, in effect, for two layouts in one. The south Wales version is intended to be a pastiche of what Swansea might have been like had the three termini been combined in Victorian times (as I believe was actually contemplated at one time), and LMS(ex-LNWR and MR) and GWR trains all ran into the same station, the ex-LNWR lines that ran into Victoria approaching from and having running powers over the lines from the direction of Llanelli and the ex-MR lines that ran into St. Thomas approaching from and having running powers over the lines from the east (towards Cardiff).

 

The issue of non-corridor stock is of particular interest for another reason: GWR non-corridor stock other than 60ft Collett B-set is very hard to obtain (and does not exist in ready to run form). I had originally planned to model a larger GWR terminus, but modified my plans to a more modestly sized Southern terminus (later further modified to be able to be used as either a GWR or Southern terminus with relatively minor modifications) for several reasons, one of which was the difficulty in obtaining suitable GWR non-corridor stock. If little or no non-corridor stock (other than B-sets - were these used on the Porthcawl trains?) was used into or out of Swansea, this might make things even easier: I had previously imagined starting with having the layout only in its south coast of England guise and possibly adding the GWR guise much later as and when I became able to build kits of non-corridor stock and/or produce satisfactory 3d prints of them.

 

To answer your question, I am not local to the Swansea area myself, but my mother was raised in that vicinity, and my grandmother still lives in Gorseinon, where I have many fond memories of visiting on holiday in years past, so I know the area quite well. This is part of what interested me in modelling this area: my grandmother was able to provide some useful information about what she remembers of the line (especially the LMS/former LNWR line into Victoria) and was able to identify from pictures what locomotives that she recalls working on the local and long-distance services on that line in the 1930s (she recognised a Jinty as the type that would haul the local services and a Fowler 4p as the type that would haul the Shrewsbury trains, although I suspect that she would not be able to distinguish between a Fowler and Stanier 4p; but I have seen other evidence of Fowler 4ps in particular working on that line).

 

In any event, thank you again for your assistance: this is very much appreciated.

[Fat Controller]

There was one link from High St to the Swansea Valley; the Great Western branch to Morriston, parallel to the canal, and on the opposite side of the Tawe to the Midland branch from St Thomas. It stopped at Clydach, though the section from Morriston to Clydach was freight-only. Local traffic was light, but one important traffic was of light engines between Landore shed and Felin Fran on the District Line; The various perishable trains from the west would have their Saints (later Counties) replaced by Stars (later Castles).

The Johnster mentions local passenger traffic along the District; most of the local stations closed within a few years of opening, though there were Worksmans trains from both Llanelli and Swansea to Llandarcy and Port Talbot. My father would have used them when working at Briton Ferry during WW2.

[jamespetts]

Thank you - that is interesting. Do you know anything about the motive power and/or rolling stock used on any of those services?

 

One thing that I am noticing from a copy of the 1936 timetable is that there seem to be a number of regular diagrams of relatively local trains, including:

 

(1) an all stations service to either Neath or Port Talbot;

(2) an all stations service to Carmarthen;

(3) an all stations service to Cardiff; and

(4) a semi-fast to Cardiff or Newport.

 

I cannot find any reference to any direct trains from Swansea to Porthcawl so far in the 1936 passenger timetable that I have acquired, although there are some direct Cardiff to Porthcawl services. Mostly, they seem to be a branch line shuttle from Pyle.

 

Does anyone have any idea as to what motive power and/or rolling stock would be used on any of the services described above? I infer that the semi-fasts to Cardiff or Newport, and possibly even the all stations services to Cardiff or Newport, might well be tender engines and corridor stock, but would the all stations to Neath or Carmarthen really have this? Carmarthen, perhaps, as it is a longer journey with some significant gradients (post-war pictures tend to show tender engines on this route), but surely the all stations to Neath would be a tank engine and non-corridor stock?

Edited November 15, 2018 by jamespetts

[jamespetts]

Also, I note a reference in the timetable to Swansea - Morriston - Llandarcy workings, which were fairly infrequent except on Saturdays. I cannot find any photographs of what would operate these workings - if anyone has any information, I should be most grateful.

[The Johnster]

That is very helpful and very : thank you. The reference to stopping trains hauled by larger engines (43xx? Granges?) and consisting of corridor stock is especially interesting. Do you recall what sort of corridor stock was used in the days before Mk. 1 carriages were introduced? Indeed, were there any non-corridor train workings of which you are aware?

 

The reason for this inquiry is that I am planning a layout representing a terminus with two twin track mainlines approaching it and merging at the terminus itself. It is not intended to represent a specific, real location, but is intended to be able to be readily convertible in era and location (between ~1910-1939 and between the south coast of England and South Wales) by changing the station name boards, signalboxes, signals and rolling stock to allow, in effect, for two layouts in one. The south Wales version is intended to be a pastiche of what Swansea might have been like had the three termini been combined in Victorian times (as I believe was actually contemplated at one time), and LMS(ex-LNWR and MR) and GWR trains all ran into the same station, the ex-LNWR lines that ran into Victoria approaching from and having running powers over the lines from the direction of Llanelli and the ex-MR lines that ran into St. Thomas approaching from and having running powers over the lines from the east (towards Cardiff).

 

The issue of non-corridor stock is of particular interest for another reason: GWR non-corridor stock other than 60ft Collett B-set is very hard to obtain (and does not exist in ready to run form). I had originally planned to model a larger GWR terminus, but modified my plans to a more modestly sized Southern terminus (later further modified to be able to be used as either a GWR or Southern terminus with relatively minor modifications) for several reasons, one of which was the difficulty in obtaining suitable GWR non-corridor stock. If little or no non-corridor stock (other than B-sets - were these used on the Porthcawl trains?) was used into or out of Swansea, this might make things even easier: I had previously imagined starting with having the layout only in its south coast of England guise and possibly adding the GWR guise much later as and when I became able to build kits of non-corridor stock and/or produce satisfactory 3d prints of them.

 

To answer your question, I am not local to the Swansea area myself, but my mother was raised in that vicinity, and my grandmother still lives in Gorseinon, where I have many fond memories of visiting on holiday in years past, so I know the area quite well. This is part of what interested me in modelling this area: my grandmother was able to provide some useful information about what she remembers of the line (especially the LMS/former LNWR line into Victoria) and was able to identify from pictures what locomotives that she recalls working on the local and long-distance services on that line in the 1930s (she recognised a Jinty as the type that would haul the local services and a Fowler 4p as the type that would haul the Shrewsbury trains, although I suspect that she would not be able to distinguish between a Fowler and Stanier 4p; but I have seen other evidence of Fowler 4ps in particular working on that line).

 

In any event, thank you again for your assistance: this is very much appreciated.

 

There are stopping trains and stopping trains, especially when you get down line from Swansea, and they can be 43xx (or perhaps Bulldogs and similar in the '30s), Granges, Halls etc. with 4 or 5 on, or they can be the continuation of trains originating from Paddington and hauled by Stars, Saints, and Castles. Castles heading for Cockett were allowed 9 without a banker, provided unattached in rear from High St., a 57xx carriage sidings pilot pressed into service usually.  Stock would be corridor. but not Hawksworths in the 30s, in a mixture of 1920s and shirtbutton liveries.

 

It would probably be corridor for the Porthcawl, if it ran in the 30s, as well; the Cardiff train was, but a large prairie would be used.  RTR provides plenty of choice for corridor stock for this period GW, and Colletts of both flat ended and bowended types as well as clerestories are suitable.  But, as you have realised, once you get to non-gangwayed stock it's the B set or nothing.  I'm not sure what use a B set is in a Swansea High St type of environment.  Comet coach sides for bowenders designed to fit on the B set underframes are your easiest option, but the underframes date from Airfix days and are a bit dated now.  But I doubt that any RTR manufacturer will even produce anything other than a B set to satisfy this market; from their point of view a complete train in 2 coaches is easy to sell, and avoids the GW's different overall length for each type of coach, which is a result of using standard sized compartments in various multiples.

 

The WTT will indicate some types of services.  Autos are usually denoted by 'Rail Motor service'.  Your Neath stopper could be anything but a shuttle with a quick turnaround at Neath would suggest an auto.  Not sure about the Morriston branch.

 

Over on the Central Wales at Victoria, the LNWR had used Precursor tanks which the LMS had replaced with Fowlers, starting an association with 2-6-4 tanks on this long run to Shrewsbury that lasted until the end of steam with BR standard 4MTs.  AFAIK Stanier or Fairburn 2-6-4 tanks were never used on this route, certainly not as a normal occurrence.  It must have been one of the longest distance services in the country run by tank engines; of course it was also in later years associated with Black and BR standard 5MTs.  The evening Swansea-York mail was a Jubilee turn, but I would have thought that the Fowler tanks would have been the norm in the 30s.  Your grandmother knew what she was talking about, right enough, Fowlers for the Shrewsburys, Jinties for the locals, and Super Ds for the freights until the Stanier 8Fs became available.  Paxton Street had some Webb Coal Tanks (this is South Wales so 0-6-2Ts are obligatory) as well, and these probably appeared on local services sometimes.  

Edited November 16, 2018 by The Johnster

[jamespetts]

That is very helpful indeed - thank you.

 

The Morriston/Llandarcy trains I note are given in the 1936 passenger timetable as "one class only", which rules out a B-set; but could this be an auto trailer?

 

The pictures that I have seen of through Porthcawl workings are all from the 1950s or later, and all show either 31xx or 51xx (41xx) large prairies, mainly from Cardiff, but sometimes from Swansea; but Landore did not have an allocation of large prairies until the 1940s from what I can see (but might these services have used locomotives allocated to a different depot - Cardiff, for example?). The rolling stock on these services seem to have been corridor mk. 1s, suggesting that corridor stock would have been used in the 1930s, too. There are also photogrpahs of auto-trains on the Porthcawl route, but only shuttles from Pyle.

 

The services up the valleys north of Swansea seemed to have originated at either Neath or Swansea East Dock (and I do not think that it makes sense in my imaginary pastiche of Swansea to imagine that East Docks station was also merged into the general station, since it would, presumably, have been necessary to have had a separate station serving the docks, whereas High St., St. Thomas and Victoria/Paxton Street all served the town), so I do not think that I need to represent these.

 

The only place that I can potentially see a B-set being useful is on the Swansea-Neath stopping services, which seemed fairly frequent in the 1936 timetable; some 1950/60s pictures (I cannot see any earlier ones) show two coach trains turning around at Neath General; these are not B-sets in the 1950s/60s, but I imagine might have been in the 1930s (unless traffic on this route would have justified a 4 coach train in those days?). If I recall the timetable correctly (it is at home and I am currently not), this did not specify that the service was one class, which I suspect means that it was not an auto-trailer, as corroborated by the pictures of passenger tank engines running around two coach trains in Neath General in the 1950s - I will have to look at the turn-around times to see whether enough time (7 minutes?) would have been left for turning around.

 

As to GWR corridor stock, there are, I think, at least five types of corridor stock available, in ascending order of build date:

 

(1) the GWR clerestory carriages - old tooling, but still produced with modern standards of paintwork by Hornby;

(2) the GWR Collett bow-ended carriages introduced in the 1920s - very high quality new tooling (without any restaurant cars) produced by Hornby; old tooling Railroad versions include a restaurant car;

(3) the GWR Centenary carriages introduced 1935 - no longer available new from what I can find but plentiful on the secondhand market - better than old tooling Hornby carriages, but not as good as the latest standard;

(4) the GWR Collett sunshine stock introduced from 1938 - old-ish tooling, produced by Bachmann - better than old tooling Hornby but not as good as new tooling Hornby, no dining cars; and

(5) the GWR Hawksworth carriages, introduced in the 1940s and therefore too late for even the latest (1938) guise of this layout.

 

The only dining cars of any type are the Hornby Railroad type. The toplights are missing entirely from ready to run ranges, but one can just about manage imagining that the GWR, known for heterogeneous rolling stock on long distance trains, had just happened not to include any of these in its South Wales mainline trains on the particular day that one is representing.

 

In relation to the Central Wales, that is also interesting - I do like pre-grouping locomotives (and the pre-grouping era generally), so the ability to use the Webb coal tanks is a happy thing (and confirms what I had already provisionally discovered regarding this route). The use of the LNWR 0-8-0s is also interesting - I do not plan to depict a goods yard in my layout, imagining the goods yard(s) to be some way up/down the line off scene, but I can have light engines running in from the fiddle yards as if they were coming from the goods yard and needing to be maintained/coaled/turned in the engine sheds, which we imagine are close by.

 

I have read somewhere that the LNWR Prince of Wales tanks were used on the Shrewsbury services before the Fowler 4Ps were introduced; this will not affect the initial late 1930s era representation, but I do hope to be able to backdate to allow running sessions in different eras one day, so it is interesting to know that the Precursor tanks were also used on this run.

 

In any event, thank you again: this is very helpful and interesting.

[Fat Controller]

Not so sure about Jinties for the locals on the Gorseinon line; the Swansea area ones were based at Upper Bank shed, and covered auto-train workings to Brynamman on the Midland line. I'd suggest the Webb Coal Tanks worked the locals on the southern end of the Central Wales line. Frustratingly, I can't find any pre-war photos of the area, though I'm sure I've some somewhere.

Regarding the Porthcawl services; those towards Cardiff would have been commuter services, whilst any others would have been excursionists and holiday-makers. These trains would have been 'dated', so might not have appeared in a winter version of the timetable.

It might be worth looking out for Penlan's posting; his layout represents the lower reaches of the Central Wales line, albeit in pre-Grouping days.

[jamespetts]

Brian - thank you for that reply.

 

Looking at the Shed Bash website, this suggests that, in 1938, there were many black 5s allocated to Swansea Victoria; but the Rail UK database suggests otherwise, albeit its starting date is 1948.

 

Both websites, however, list a number of ex-LNWR 2-4-2Ts (presumably, the 5ft6 radial tanks); has anyone any idea on which services that they were used?

[Fat Controller]

Brian - thank you for that reply.

 

Looking at the Shed Bash website, this suggests that, in 1938, there were many black 5s allocated to Swansea Victoria; but the Rail UK database suggests otherwise, albeit its starting date is 1948.

 

Both websites, however, list a number of ex-LNWR 2-4-2Ts (presumably, the 5ft6 radial tanks); has anyone any idea on which services that they were used?

The only ones I can think of are the various local services, on the 'main line' to Pontardulais, and the branch to Llanmorlais (which closed to passengers pre-WW2). With regard to the Black Fives, I suppose they might have started to appear pre-WW2, but I'd have thought other lines would have received them before an isolated route with a relatively infrequent service. If Paxton St did get any pre-war, it would have been for the York Mail, and perhaps the 'Burton Goods'.

Though it's coverage is post-war, it might be worth seeking out a copy of 'The Red Dragon, and other old friends' which has views of a lot of services around Swansea, both ex-L&NWR and GWR. Another useful source are the John Hodge books on the GWR Main Line, most especially the Swansea to Llanelly volume. There's plenty for the lovers of 'big engines on small trains' in both; Castles on 3 and 4 coaches headiing to and from the west, for example. Were you to model west of Swansea, you wouldn't need to worry about the absence of a Buffet or Restaurant, as these were added at Swansea on the up journey.

How about Gowerton, with the former Llanelly Railway crossing the GWR line, and branches and private sidings seemingly everywhere?

[jamespetts]

Thank you for your thoughts and information about the 2-4-2s and black fives.

 

The reason for choosing a Swansea-ish location is that the layout is planned to be able to be convertible in location by changing the station signs, signals, signalboxes and rolling stock, between a location on the south coast of England and this location (and possibly others in the future, too): see this thread for more details. That layout has two twin track mainlines converging on a single 8 platform terminus station with two separate engine sheds and a track layout implying that the two main lines are somewhat separate, perhaps built by different companies.

[jamespetts]

Looking at the 1949 service timetable, it appears that there were by then quite a number of diesel railcar services: mainly stopping services to or towards Carmarthen, but also a Saturdays only service to Porthcawl and a longer distance fast train to Cheltenham. Comparing this with my 1936 passenger timetable, none of these services appear in that timetable (which explicitly states which services were diesel railcar worked): the 1936 timetable shows no diesel workings into Swansea.

 

However, this website (the "Shed Bash" website) gives an allocation of diesel railcar no. 16 to Landore shed in 1938. Since it is 1938 rather that I am aiming to reproduce in the GWR guise of the layout about which I am asking here, this is relevant. This suggests that there would probably have been at least some diesel railcar services from Swansea by 1938 that there were not in 1936. Since there was only 1 (and since many more railcars were built between 1938 and 1949), it would presumably not be all of the services listed in the 1949 STT as being diesel worked that would have been diesel worked in 1938 - but perhaps the once a day service to/from Cheltenham would have been diesel railcar worked in 1938? No such service appears at all in the 1936 timetable (the 1715h arrival, which in 1949 was the booked arrival time of the down service from Cheltenham being taken in the 1936 timetable with a stopping service from Cardiff with different timings along the way than the Cheltenham train, which stopped only at a few stations between Cardiff and Swansea, rather than every station as the train in the 1936 timetable), but perhaps one was added by 1938? I am not sure how else to account for the allocation in that year.

 

Also, the 1949 STT contains a through Aberdare to Swansea working, leaving 0705h and arriving in Swansea High Street at 0834; the situation in the 1936 passenger timetable is hard to discern because the Pontypool, Penmaen, Cardiff, Merthyr, Aberdare, Neath and Swansea tables (page 150 onwards) are unclear as to which services shown are direct trains and which terminate at Neath but connect with stopping services going only as far as Neath. There are plenty of the services shown on pages 106 and onwards of the timetable (the South Wales mainline pages) that are capable of connecting straight through, including one similarly timed to that in the 1949 timetable, departing Aberdare 0720 and arriving Swansea at 0830. However, there is at least one stopping service from Port Talbot, timed to arrive at Swansea at 1809h in the 1936 timetable that is shown on page 150 as the continuation of a service from Pontypool, which cannot be a through service, as the line from Aberdare joins the South Wales mainline at Neath. The 1949 timetable does not seem to have as many stopping trains to Neath as the 1936 timetable, but does refer to a 1428h Pontypool Road passenger arriving at Swansea High Street at 1710h and continuing to Carmarthen, arriving at 1830h. The 1936 timetable, meanwhile, refers to some stopping services from Port Talbot (but not Neath) as being "one class only", suggesting that they were auto train worked.

 

This all suggests that there was a regular Pontypool Road/Aberdare to Swansea service in the 1930s (and fewer trains simply going to Neath than I had originally thought - indeed, perhaps no such trains). Does anyone have any idea what would have formed these trains - 56xxs with non-corridor stock ? Halls/43xxs/Granges with corridor stock? If non-corridor stock, what sort of stock would it be - B-sets (perhaps too short for such a journey)? 4 carriage 60ft bow ended sets with a small amount of first class accommodation (e.g. an "M-set" - van 3rd, third, lavatory composite, van 3rd)? Edit: Looking at the timetables, the Pontypool to Swansea journey was about two and a half hours, so I doubt that non-corridor stock would have been suitable for this service; but it is hard to find pictures of these trains in the 1930s. In the later 1950s and 1960s, mk. 1 corridor carriages seem to have been used.

 

Also, I note from the 1949 STT that the Llandarcy/Morriston trains do indeed seem to be marked there as auto trains, suggesting that they were probably thus also in the1936 timetable, being marked there as "one class only".

Edited November 18, 2018 by jamespetts

[The Johnster]

Stock for Pontypool Rd-Swansea services can be hinted at by the timetables.  The general rule, though I never saw it written down, on the WR and inherited from the GW was that corridor stock should be provided to allow all passengers access to toilets on any train whose running time was over 2 hours; this is the reason that the pannier hauled Newport-Brecon trains had corridor stock.  Such services, including those terminating at Neath, were certainly provided with corridor stock in WR days and I would confidently assume were in the 1930s as well.  

 

There are also workmen's trains to consider; these do not appear in the public timetable but are in the WTT.  4-wheelers would still be used on these in the 1930s.

[jamespetts]

That is very helpful, thank you. The STT from 1949 refers to a number of workmens' trains (the Llandarcy trains are thus described) as being auto trains (indeed, some workmens' trains are shown in the 1936 passenger timetable). The first workmen's train that I can find in the 1949 STT is the 1145h Saturdays only Llandarcy to Swansea workmen's train, which is put down as an auto train on that timetable.

[jamespetts]

I have also spotted in the 1936 timetable further secondary main line/cross country diagrams from Swansea High Street: one to Cardigan and one to Pontypridd via Treherbert and Briton Ferry. These are both quite long journeys of >2 hours, so I would assume corridor stock. Has anyone any ideas as to the motive power or train length for these services?

 

I am also trying to work out whether there were any through trains from Swansea to Aberystwyth - the map suggests that there should be as this would make sense as a journey, but I cannot find any in the timetable: although through timings are given at page 156 of the 1936 timetable, it is apparent from piecing that together with the South Wales mainline timetable that these are just connecting services, the main services either terminating at Carmarthen or heading further west (unless the train would divide at Carmarthen, perhaps? But if that is so, the carriages at Carmarthen often had a 15-20 minute wait to be taken on towards Aberystwyth, whereas the portion going west was allowed only ~4 minutes for the operation).

 

My grandmother tells me that she went on her honeymoon (early 1940s) to Aberystwyth by train and does not recall having to change at Carmarthen, although is not sure now - she does clearly remember that the seat fabric was blue in colour, if this assists with identifying the rolling stock.

[The Johnster]

There were certainly no through Aberystwyth trains from Swansea in BR days. and most of those services were based on those previously entrenched in railway practice.  You changed at Carmarthen.  But I have seen a photo of a train on the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route, shortly before closure, hauled by a BR standard 4MT 2-6-4T from Landore; it had been transferred there from Paxton Street, the LNWR shed at Swansea.  The Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route was 'blue' restricted, and Manors were the biggest engines allowed.

 

In pre WW1 days, when all sorts of mad things happened, however, there was a daily through carriage from Bute Road in Cardiff to Aberystwyth routed via Treherbert, R & SB, SWML/High Street, and Carmarthen, attached to various other trains.  It took about 5 hours and going via Shrewsbury and the Cambrian was probably quicker...

[Fat Controller]

There was a summer-Saturday Swansea High St- Pwllhelli train in the Fifties and Sixties which went via Carmarthen and Aberystwyth; it was intended for those going to and from Pwllhelli holiday camp.

[jamespetts]

Interesting, thank you both. Brian - do you know what hauled this train and whether it changed locomotives at Carmarthen and/or Aberystwyth?

[Fat Controller]

Interesting, thank you both. Brian - do you know what hauled this train and whether it changed locomotives at Carmarthen and/or Aberystwyth?

It would have had to change locos at Aber, it being a terminus. Carmarthen, in those days, was a through station, so a loco change wouldn't have been required if a loco with the right route-availability (a Manor or 43xx?) was already on the departure from Swansea.

[jamespetts]

I did wonder about that - no Manors ever seem to have been allocated to Landore; some were allocated to Carmarthen in the 1950s, but not in the 1930s; two were allocated to Neyland in 1938, which seems to be the closest.

 

Might Manors have been used on west Wales stopping services in 1938?

[The Johnster]

To throw a spaniard in the works, there were 2 Manors allocated to Court Sart, Neath, in the 50s; I have no idea what for as there is little 'blue' work from that shed!

 

The Pwllheli train was likely a Butlin's charter and not a service timetable working; I would imagine anything Landore had handy as far as Carmarthen, Manor or 43xx to Aber, anything you like to Machynlleth where another reversal is required, and Manor or 43xx onward, with standard 4MT 4-6-0s possible on the Cambrian section in the 60s if the train ran that late; it couldn't have run after the closure of the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route due to flooding in 1964.

Edited November 20, 2018 by The Johnster

[jamespetts]

Thank you - that is most interesting. I have been trying without luck to work out whether Manors ever ran into Swansea in 1938. There is an intriguing picture of 7084 in 1958 at Carmarthen on the Disused Stations website, which describes it as a local train from Swansea. That locomotive was allocated to Carmarthen in 1958, but had been allocated to Neyland when built from new in January 1938 (so just within my time period). Would it ever have run stopping services from Swansea to the west, I wonder? What would it have done from Neyland? It was one of two Manors allocated there in 1938.

[jamespetts]

Given the Hornby announcement of GWR suburban carriages this morning, I wonder whether any of these would have run into Swansea and, if so, on what services? Porthcawl, perhaps?

Edited January 7, 2019 by jamespetts

[88D]

Am I right in saying that some Jinties were autofitted for working LMS suburban trains in the area? Not relevant to High Street, but it is your layout: rule 1 and all that.