Recommendations: 'N' Gauge Steam Shunter?

[Ray Von]

I am thinking of making a small shelf "tuning fork" layout in the coming weeks for a relative, it will be made mostly of leftover sections of track and spare parts.

 

As such, I'm after ideas for a good serviceable little engine to act as the primary loco for shunting wagons around on this layout.

 

At the moment the plan is still at the "scraps of paper" stage! I don't see the layout being much more than 2ft 6 in length - and just as wide as needs be. So, the shorter the loco wheelbase the better - the same goes for wagons as space is limited. Having said that, I'll be using Peco set-track (insulfrog) points - and from experience I know that the smaller engines often lose power when crossing these points, so a wheelbase that is fairly short but still "spans the frog" as it were, would be the ideal.

 

The era is not set in stone, steam definitely, ideally between 1930's to 60's but certainly not limited to.

 

I think that's everything, all help gratefully received as always! :-)

[woodenhead]

Dapol or Farish Pannier, Farish Jinty

 

If you accept a diesel a Farish 08 or an 03/04

 

If you need tiny a Dapol Terrier

Edited December 7, 2018 by woodenhead

[Ray Von]

Thanks, I have a class 08 - that was the one that struggled over the points. I'll take a look at the other suggestions right now though. Cheers!

[Ray Von]

Here's a quick comparison pic, they are about the same length, but I think the Jinty wins over the 08 in the position of its wheels relative to the loco body, much more evenly spread out - to my mind they look like they could cross the points without loss of contact(?)

[RexAshton]

No matter how good the loco is the plastic frogs in your setrack will ruin any chance of realistic operation. For the sake of a few quid use Streamline electrofrogs and enjoy the extra reliability.

[The Johnster]

Or, if you're stuck with setrack for space reasons, the usual reason for using it, they can be made to operate reliably.  Make absolutely sure that the turnouts are laid as level and smoothly to the adjoining piece as possible, and kept away from any changes in gradients.  Make absolutely sure that they are kept scrupulously clean at the contact points where the blades close on the stock rails.  Make absolutely sure that the flangeways are kept clear of debris or ballast that might lift a current collecting wheel clear of the railhead; this is important in 00 never mind N.  Make absolutely sure that the back to back of the loco's wheels is correct, and don't rely on the fact that the loco is brand new in a box to provide this without checking!  And make absolutely sure that the railheads, wheel tyres, backs, and pickups are scrupulously clean as well.

 

You may, even on brand new models, need to check that the pickups are contacting the backs of the wheels properly and employ a little gentle persuasion to get them right; move the wheelset to the limit of it's sideways play in both directions while you are checking this.

 

Now, having made absolutely sure of all this, your loco should run as smoothly over the dead frog as it does anywhere else on the layout.  It needs all the pickups to be working to do this, as while one or two sets are over the frog and not picking up at all, the remaining ones, or one, has to do all the work and must function absolutely perfectly.  If you are traversing a dead frog at low speed, all the factors are against you; the loco has no momentum to carry it over a momentary break in power, and the voltage is low so the motor has none either, so it is vital that all systems are correctly and fully functioning!

 

Tip: use a pound shop children's paintbrush with stiff nylon bristles to keep the flangeways clear of debris.  Or an old toothbrush.

[Ray Von]

No matter how good the loco is the plastic frogs in your setrack will ruin any chance of realistic operation. For the sake of a few quid use Streamline electrofrogs and enjoy the extra reliability.

Hi Rex, Cheers, but I already have the set-track points, apart from the wheel contact issue in what way do you think that they would be unreliable? I do intend to install wiring loops to the points so as no to rely solely on blade contact for current transfer, I know that can be an issue, and a pain in the proverbial!

 

The layout isn't intended to be particularly prototypical either, so I'm no too bothered about the looks. :-)

[Ray Von]

Cheers Johnster! Clash of posts there!

[The Johnster]

Glad to be of help, if I have been!  I use Peco streamline insulfrogs on Cwmdimbath, a 00 1950s South Wales BLT with some pretensions in the way of prototypical operation and appearance, in the interest of wiring simplicity (I am the world's worst solderer;  please don't tell me how to do it or that I can improve, I've heard it all before; reliability is paramount for me and will be compromised by complex wiring), and use one setrack 4th-3rd radius curve (Hornby) in the fiddle yard along with some 4th radius curves to save space).  I don't like the Hornby point; it feels less well made than the Streamlines, but is reliable enough in service. I bought it because the shop didn't have a Streamline one and I wanted to crack on with my fiddle yard.

 

I took the greatest possible care with laying the track, and have achieved very good standards of running at low, controllable, speeds through all my turnouts.  On the 'scenic' part of the layout they are all Streamline mediums except for the loco release which are smalls, and all are smalls except the curved turnout in the fiddle yard.  I use tension lock couplers as my eyesight is not up to shunting with scale couplings, and can haul and propel any combination of locomotives and stock anywhere on the layout.  

 

This means I have some quite long dead section over frogs. but the Hornby curved turnout has the longest.  They have given me no problems with stalling except that one loco (a Hornby one at that!) had to be fettled a bit before it would run reliably over the curved turnout.  The layout is used for operating sessions on an almost daily basis, and I find that this sort of frequent use does most of the cleaning for me, but an occasional build up needs removal with a Peco track cleaning block.  

 

I keep track of operating days in Cwmdimbath time (a full timetable day takes about 3 or 4 operating sessions, or nearly a week in real time) and take 2 locomotives out of a stud of 10 prototypically out of service every 10 working Cwmdimbath days for 'boiler washout' which takes 2 WCD.  This ensures variety and introduces a challenge in running the timetable as only one is auto fitted, and gives me a chance to give them a seeing to; thorough cleaning and check of back-to-backs and pickups.  My running is very good and near 100% reliable except for the odd derailment caused by my own hamfistedness.

 

Despite what some people here would have you believe, insulfrogs can be made to work, but care in installation is needed.  Electrofrogs are undoubtedly more forgiving, but even these have a dead section between the vee and the switch rails.  I would advise them if you are using larger radius turnouts and the wiring is not an issue for you, but do not dismiss dead frogs altogther.  If you are using set track geometry, they are all you have anyway.

 

The sensible advice is obvious; use the largest radius you can get away with for scale appearance and good running, and wire for live frogs, but this cannot always be done, especially where space is at a premium.

[Ray Von]

Cheers, I think I will stick with the set-track points and follow your advice keenly regarding the track laying. It will be a "train set" more than anything else and hopefully a bit of fun.

 

I've had a look at the Jinty and I like it, but what else is out there that people know and trust??

[DCB]

 I have been converting 00 insulfrog points to live frog for 30 or 40 years, even Triang Super 4 points.  My eyes and digital dexterity aren't up to the challenge of N gauge but |I can't see any reason why N gauge set track points can't be live frogged.

I would suggest the 08 is a better bet as a shunter, the outside frames give it a sort of old time look as it waddles slowly around   Both locos should be long enough to span any dead frogs at reasonable speed but are still likely to stall when crawling.

[Ray Von]

Thanks, the layout I have in mind is a two prong (maybe three) tuning fork, nothing complex - so I see no need for crawling over points in this scenario. I really love the class 08 and the way it "waddles!" I own two. However, I think steam is the way I want to go on this particular build.

[dpgibbons]

The upcoming N Gauge Society Hunslet diesel shunter will be the first UK RTR loco with a stay-alive capacity as standard, which should assist smooth running over frogs.

[Ray Von]

Interesting! I might be alone in not knowing what stay-alive capacity is? I assume it is what it sounds like? Any chance of more information or a link?? :-)

[The Johnster]

Any 0-6-0 will be ideal, so Jinty, 57xx, 94xx, 08, but shell out for the newer type of chassis not the older ones available secondhand as the newer ones run much better in terms of smooth reliable slow control.  Avoid 0-4-0s and be careful if you are laying two turnouts close to each other as if the distance between the dead frogs and that between the axles is the same the loco will stall no matter how good your track laying or how reliable the mechanism is.

[dpgibbons]

 

Interesting! I might be alone in not knowing what stay-alive capacity is? I assume it is what it sounds like? Any chance of more information or a link?? :-)

 

A DCC decoder fitted with a stay-alive capacitor can store electrical energy and use it to maintain motion during a short loss of track power, such as might occur crossing a frog gap. Stay-alive is obviously desirable in a shunting loco but there's rarely room to fit it in a small N Gauge loco. The upcoming NGS Hunslet will have this feature designed in. 

[grahame]

Rather than just RTR why not also look at kits and bashing old models. Here's a heavy steam shunter I made from a kit recently (although not currently available but is likely to be re-released). And with the 0-8-0 configuration would give a bigger pick-up area and be less prone to stalling:

 

 

You can read all about making it in the next issue of the NGS Journal - 1/19 due out towards the end of January.

 

G

 

[Ray Von]

Cheers Graham, that's a really nice model - looks just the job! :-) I like it. I am keen to keep contact with the track to a maximum (I'm sure we all are!) so any loco similar to that is definitely in the running.

 

Also, thanks for the info, will look out for the NGS journal.

 

What particular engine is that btw?

[D9020 Nimbus]

You will need to think carefully about the combinations of locos and wagons you use. If you have a reverse curve—as you would in the case of a crossover—then a long loco + a long wagon = derailments. For example, a Farish D95xx (class 14)—which would otherwise be a good choice—will derail a BR brake van coupled to it (standard couplings). I'd be surprised if a loco of the size shown in Grahame's photo didn't suffer from this problem.

 

For avoiding stalling, a bogie diesel would be best—a Farish class 20 or a Dapol class 22 for instance. The "new" (coreless motor) Farish Jinty does run across Setrack points OK though.

 

I do find it is important to keep wheels, in particular, clean.

[Ray Von]

Thanks Nimbus, personally - I really like the diesels especially the class 20. But I have a feeling that a steam train would go down best as a gift in this instance, so the Jinty is a hot favourite at the moment!!

 

With regards to wagons, I'll certainly be opting for short wheelbase models (16T Mineral and the like) to maximize space and facilitate smooth running - at least that's the plan...

[justin1985]

To get the best possible running for shunting, how about an 0-6-0 tender loco like an LMS 4F? Not at all out of place shunting, and has a lot more pick ups for reliable running. I'd say the 4F is probably a better bet than the J39, which has a tender drive mechanism.

[Paul80]

Another thumbs up for the 4f, a great little loco, super smooth runner and as said above loads of pickups for reliable slow speed shunting.

[SteveyDee68]

I have been converting 00 insulfrog points to live frog for 30 or 40 years, even Triang Super 4 points. My eyes and digital dexterity aren't up to the challenge of N gauge but |I can't see any reason why N gauge set track points can't be live frogged.

I would suggest the 08 is a better bet as a shunter, the outside frames give it a sort of old time look as it waddles slowly around Both locos should be long enough to span any dead frogs at reasonable speed but are still likely to stall when crawling.

Apologies - not intending to hijack this thread...

 

I have recently posted about issues with secondhand OO gauge insulfrog points, so seeing your post about converting them to live frog is more than interesting. Have you a thread about this by any chance?

 

Steve

Edited December 13, 2018 by SteveyDee68