New Layout Plans

[Ruston]

I'm thinking about building a new small layout to fit under my bookshelves in the space previously occupied by White Peak Limestone & Tarmacadam. The larger layout is on hold until warmer weather allows, so this will keep me occupied and will be portable for exhibition use.

 

The scenic baseboard will be the same 47x15ins. but will have a fiddle yard at each end.

 

The first idea is to make use of all the 19th century industrial locos that I have been building and is a small colliery in the mid to late Victorian period.

 

It will of course feature the loading of real coal and I have thoughts of the lower left-hand track going into a tunnel via cable haulage. Comments, observations etc. welcome.

[rope runner]

Does modelling a real location appeal to you Dave? Perhaps a section of a small colliery like Kilmersdon, perhaps?

 

The research and prototypical operation can add another element of interest to the hobby, though it's not for everyone and some actually find it tedious!

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with regardless, I'm envious of your pace of work to say the least. 

 

Paul A. 

[Barclay]

Have you considered a scene that is also set on the Calder Vale? Perhaps something you liked the idea of but which wouldn't fit on the main layout.

[5050]

What track is that plan based on?  Peco Code 75? 

 

Handbuilt Bullhead would look better................................

 

I like it. 

 

Might copy it...............

Edited December 17, 2018 by 5050

[Ruston]

Does modelling a real location appeal to you Dave? Perhaps a section of a small colliery like Kilmersdon, perhaps?

 

The research and prototypical operation can add another element of interest to the hobby, though it's not for everyone and some actually find it tedious!

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with regardless, I'm envious of your pace of work to say the least. 

 

Paul A. 

Hi Paul,

 

I have never considered modelling a real location. I think it would be too restrictive, and for what could be fitted in the available space, rather boring. I always find prototypical operation to be boring, too. You see these finely crafted layouts at exhibitions with nothing moving on them.

 

 

Have you considered a scene that is also set on the Calder Vale? Perhaps something you liked the idea of but which wouldn't fit on the main layout.

I hadn't thought of that but it's a good idea. It could be a colliery which also produces fireclay and be somewhere along the line, so I could use the same stock on both layouts.

 

 

What track is that plan based on?  Peco Code 75? 

 

Handbuilt Bullhead would look better................................

 

I like it. 

 

Might copy it...............

Yes, it's Peco Code 75. You're right, it would look better hand-built. The two top left-hand points would be better as a hand-built 3-way for a start. But you already know the problem with that, as in I can't build track. If I could I'd already be building EM anyway. Hang on... Haven't we had this conversation before? Several times.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Ruston

[doilum]

I'm thinking about building a new small layout to fit under my bookshelves in the space previously occupied by White Peak Limestone & Tarmacadam. The larger layout is on hold until warmer weather allows, so this will keep me occupied and will be portable for exhibition use.

 

The scenic baseboard will be the same 47x15ins. but will have a fiddle yard at each end.

 

The first idea is to make use of all the 19th century industrial locos that I have been building and is a small colliery in the mid to late Victorian period.

 

Pit01.jpg

It will of course feature the loading of real coal and I have thoughts of the lower left-hand track going into a tunnel via cable haulage. Comments, observations etc. welcome.

Has a look of Dom Pedro.

This would be a real alternative colliery layout. Coal winding ended before 1914 but it remained open as a ventilation and man riding shaft until the closure of Whitwood in 1964. A weekly delivery of coal was sent up from Whitwood to fuel office and winding room fires along with hay, straw and horsefeed for the underground ponies. The underground stables required daily mucking out and the resulting manure was wound to the surface and tipped into a wagon. Once full, it would be propelled down the line and dropped off at the request of local farmers.

Pre 1947 colliery owners had diverse business interests including lime quarries and brick works. It appears that they also owned significant areas of agriculture land in order to be self sufficient in hay and feed.

Whilst there have been several discussions on this forum about the correct method of loading pit props in open wagons, I don't recall the consideration of the supply of pony materials. Given that a medium size colliery might have 20 plus ponies this traffic would not be inconsiderable.

[Ruston]

Has a look of Dom Pedro.

This would be a real alternative colliery layout. Coal winding ended before 1914 but it remained open as a ventilation and man riding shaft until the closure of Whitwood in 1964. A weekly delivery of coal was sent up from Whitwood to fuel office and winding room fires along with hay, straw and horsefeed for the underground ponies. The underground stables required daily mucking out and the resulting manure was wound to the surface and tipped into a wagon. Once full, it would be propelled down the line and dropped off at the request of local farmers.

Pre 1947 colliery owners had diverse business interests including lime quarries and brick works. It appears that they also owned significant areas of agriculture land in order to be self sufficient in hay and feed.

Whilst there have been several discussions on this forum about the correct method of loading pit props in open wagons, I don't recall the consideration of the supply of pony materials. Given that a medium size colliery might have 20 plus ponies this traffic would not be inconsiderable.

I like that idea so here's another trackplan.

 

The track top left is rope-hauled, Fulls will come down the incline on this track and will be shunted by loco. The loco will place empties for haulage up the working pits. The track going off, top right, is just a shunting neck and trains to and from the L&Y will go out via the bottom right track. The headshunt, bottom left, will be in a sandstone cutting. The section down to the L&Y will be loco-worked. The shaft represents a pit which has closed least for coal-winding.  I would have this as a shaft for pit pony materials and as a pumping engine shaft.

 

Rather than have rope haulage, I may have loco haulage throughout because I think that rope-haulage wouldn't work properly in model form. The little people wouldn't be able to hang the wagons on the rope, for one thing...

 

This plan isn't totally from my imagination. It is closely based on the sidings that were at Little London, near Flockton, on the mineral railway of Sir John Lister Lister Kaye. Given more space this could be built as the prototype location as the sidings could only accommodate 10 wagons but my version would be compressed to maybe 6. The track layout and number of sidings is the same though. The shaft represents the former Victoria pit, that was sunk in 1854 and closed (for coal-winding at least) in 1866. It became connected underground to Denby Grange pit.

 

The track at top left on my plan was rope-hauled through Stocksmoor tunnel by a winding engine near the Midgeley to Netherton road. This winding engine was at a summit and controlled trains to and from Little London and to and from Denby Grange pit. Another engine, at the summit beyond Denby Grange, took trains to and from Caphouse and Hope pits (now the site of the National Coalmining Museum). The track bottom left was, as in my plan, a headshunt and was in a sandstone cutting, which is said to be quite deep and still in existence. From there the loco-hauled trains went down to a staithe on the Calder & Hebble Navigation and to the L&YR  Barnsley to Wakefield line. Part of Kaye's railway was still in use up until 1993 as British Oak D.P.

[5050]

When I saw it I thought - 'I recognise that!'.  Something I've also considered using as the basis for a layout - but you've got there first!

 

Reproducing rope haulage in 4mm isn't insurmountable.  I've seen it done and, in fact, how you've got the track plan, you might not need to show it at all because the rope would be attached to the last wagon which you might not see all of anyway.  A slight push from the fiddle yard would serve to propel the wagons into the visible section of the layout.

[doilum]

Rope haulage will provide a guaranteed distraction for the time when the digital demons let loose their grievous gremlins at a busy exhibition.

Back to pony traffic, photos of the demolition of Primrose Hill colliery show what I once believed to be a salt wagon. Closer inspection suggests that it was a colliery conversion from a 7 plank wagon. Given the need to keep hay and bedding materials dry this might explain its construction.

[rope runner]

I have never considered modelling a real location. I think it would be too restrictive, and for what could be fitted in the available space, rather boring. I always find prototypical operation to be boring, too. You see these finely crafted layouts at exhibitions with nothing moving on them.

 

 

Each to their own Dave, that's an entirely understandable viewpoint. 

 

Paul A. 

[doilum]

Rope haulage will provide a guaranteed distraction for the time when the digital demons let loose their grievous gremlins at a busy exhibition.

Back to pony traffic, photos of the demolition of Primrose Hill colliery show what I once believed to be a salt wagon. Closer inspection suggests that it was a colliery conversion from a 7 plank wagon. Given the need to keep hay and bedding materials dry this might explain its construction.

I have quickly found a Google image that shows one tantalising end of this vehicle. Frustratingly, I cannot find the image I saw a year or so ago which provided a full view. If anybody has a clue please share!!

[Respite]

When I saw it I thought - 'I recognise that!'.  Something I've also considered using as the basis for a layout - but you've got there first!

 

 

I also recognise the track plan from the book about the Denby system, and I have always thought it would make a superb small layout. The reversal adds the interest.

 

Because I couldn't cope with engineering the cable haulage I thought it could be the interchange point between a large loco like an austerity working the top section of the system interchanging traffic with an 0-4-0ST. I wouldn't have a loco shed but perhaps double up the sidings by the pumping shaft to have one for boiler fuel and the other for loading boiler ash, unloading pit props or delivering provender for the horses. That would increase your traffic flows, shunting potential and the types of wagon you could use.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Respite

[Ruston]

When I saw it I thought - 'I recognise that!'.  Something I've also considered using as the basis for a layout - but you've got there first!

 

Reproducing rope haulage in 4mm isn't insurmountable.  I've seen it done and, in fact, how you've got the track plan, you might not need to show it at all because the rope would be attached to the last wagon which you might not see all of anyway.  A slight push from the fiddle yard would serve to propel the wagons into the visible section of the layout.

But if all I'm going to do is push the wagons through by hand, and no working haulage is seen then there's not much point in saying that there is rope haulage at all. I may as well use locomotives and at least get a longer run for them.

 

I could make rope haulage work if I had enough space to make it worthwhile but for what will be visible of the incline on this it isn't worth the trouble.

 

 

 

I also recognise the track plan from the book about the Denby system, and I have always thought it would make a superb small layout. The reversal adds the interest.

 

Because I couldn't cope with engineering the cable haulage I thought it could be the interchange point between a large loco like an austerity working the top section of the system interchanging traffic with an 0-4-0ST. I wouldn't have a loco shed but perhaps double up the sidings by the pumping shaft to have one for boiler fuel and the other for loading boiler ash, unloading pit props or delivering provender for the horses. That would increase your traffic flows, shunting potential and the types of wagon you could use.

 

I have been thinking of making one of the through roads into a siding for loading/unloading and doing away with the engine shed so that siding could be used to service the boilers and having just a coaling and watering point for the locomotives.

 

Or having an extra siding and keeping three through roads.

 

[Osgood]

Sorry but I really liked your first scheme - well balanced structures, randomly flowing curves to track pleasing to the eye.  How could you better that?

[doilum]

Sorry but I really liked your first scheme - well balanced structures, randomly flowing curves to track pleasing to the eye.  How could you better that?

Inclined to agree. Avoiding lines parallel to the baseboard front is always a good start.

[Ruston]

The trouble with doing an old colliery is that it can't be anything but the one particular period and I have 1950s/60s locomotives and wagons that have nothing to run on, so something that can be multi-period is what I am now thinking of.

 

A wagon works would be pretty much the same over a wide time period. Edwardian people, horse-drawn vehicles and, of course, rolling stock and a Peckett or Manning Wardle can be swapped for 1960s people, motor vehicles and a Ruston 48DS.

 

 

Plenty of movements available. All buildings would be open at the back so stock could be exchanged behind the scenes. A paint shop, new build erecting shop and a repair shop. Shear legs outside the repair shop. Part of the track inset. Buildings providing the backscene, giving a self-contained look.

[Down_Under]

If you want a little wagon works inspiration in a tight setting check out the one on the Harton Railway.

 

I'll see if I can track down any public domain photos.

[Walkden]

Think this is a great idea for a layout , you could add a small loco works and the stock you could run would be limitless , old locos being dragged in , then a pristine rebuilt rolling out on test , likewise with wagons , with box vans and flat wagons delivering parts / machinery,

might have to give it a go !  

[Down_Under]

Hi Dave,

 

Had a little play, here is a very rough sketch - not sure what program you used.

 

 

Sort of nominally 1 foot ish markers

 

I can send you a pm with some photos from the book

 

James