Industrial Tales in P4 from an Antipodean Dining Table - NCB Edition

[Down_Under]

Good Evening All,

 

After a long time lurking I've managed to find some time between the desert (where I work) and a classic Land Rover to start some modelling. As the title of this thread suggests, I'll be mainly working in P4 and cover all things industrial - locos, wagons and maybe even a small diorama (mostly due to space) to test locos and wagons (perhaps a'la Rustons' works background), with an NCB or Midlands Ironstone theme, all from the kitchen table. I'll try and model specific locos, modelling specific NCB and Midlands Ironstone engines in the late 60s, 70s and into 80s, but may stray at times.

 

I apologies in advance for my rather basic photos - its actually much harder than I thought to take good pics. Hopefully they should get better, along with the models. Feel free to hint and tip, offer advice or criticism (as long as its nice    ).

 

Without to much more fuss it would be rude not to start with something National Coal Board -ish with all this RTR stuff floating about these days - a little bit of upgrading and re-wheeling to re-hone some skills before cracking open a kit.

 

 

First up we have Accurscale HUO's (internal user pack) and Oxford Rail Janus converted to P4 on a Judith Edge Chassis.

 

It was hard not to resist the HUO wagons, even though they fall outside of my main area and era. They just look so good, I have nothing more to say that hasn't already been said - some of the best models I've seen straight out the box.

 

The Janus was bought a while back more because of its inaccuracies to refresh my skills and what better way than to build a chassis and do some super detailing? More on this later.

 

The HUO's - these seem to have turned up everywhere as internal user wagons being played with by Andrew Barclays in collieries, from Dollar Colliery, Orchills, Clackmannanshire, Scotland in the 1970 (Tom Heavyside - Scotlands Last Colliery Steam) through Newstead in the midlands to the South Wales Coalfieds at Onllwyn in the 90s. They pop up in coalite plants across the country.

 

The only real addition was to fit some 3 - link instanter couplings and P4 wheel sets slipped in pretty easily, little reaming required for the axles to roll freely.

 

 

 

These are courtesy of AMBIS Engineering and I think they look the part. Little more solder next time and some better fling perhaps. Question to everyone - do you solder up the link or leave it open?

 

 

 

Beauty of these AMBIS etched links is that they will close couple

 

 

Small little addition makes a heap of difference. Now, just need to re-learn the art of weathering.

 

The next post will focus on the Janus....

 

 

Enjoy, J

 

Edited - updated a link

Edited January 6, 2019 by Down_Under

[Adam]

Very nice - what's the chassis under the Janus?

 

I always solder the links up. It looks better and the risk of a coupling failing is mitigated which is important even if you're not running 30 odd wagon trains (and besides, fixing things like that is dull).

 

I look forward to seeing more.

 

Adam

[Porcy Mane]

Very nice - what's the chassis under the Janus?

 

Janus?

[Adam]

Janus?

 

Thanks Porcy - I'd missed that.

 

Adam

[doilum]

Have a look at the most iconic of all NCB wagons: the side tipping muck wagon. RT models do one although you really need at least three or four. If nothing else you will improve your soldering skills.

[Michael Edge]

Thanks Porcy - I'd missed that.

 

Adam

 

We haven't really advertised this yet but we have plenty of them at the moment.

[rope runner]

I'll try and model specific locos, modelling specific NCB and Midlands Ironstone engines in the late 60s, 70s and into 80s, but may stray at times.

 

You dabble in NCB as well James? Well, nobody's perfect... 

 

Watching with interest of course

 

Paul A. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

Janus?

 

Hugh?

 

Mike.

[Down_Under]

You dabble in NCB as well James? Well, nobody's perfect... 

 

Watching with interest of course

 

Paul A. 

 

The darkside has come out already! haha. Just waiting for those wagons from RT

Janus?

 

That's the one.

[Down_Under]

Inspiration - well we all need some now and then, and this is where I get mine.

 

I grew up watching 'Trains Now Departing' and I have lost track of how many times I've seen 'Lines of Industry' (YouTube Link) - I still re-watch this from time to time. The Ironstone tramways and NCB lines really captured my imagination back when I was younger.  I grew up in the Northwest surrounded my the remnants of a industrial past, before going to Uni up in Edinburgh in the mid 2000's, and spent a few years in between studies cycling round lanes, peering over hedges from the Borders to Fife at relics of from another era. So there is going to be a strong midlands Ironstone and a Scottish - to NE England theme to some NCB modelling. 

Recently there have been some excellent videos of Astley Green (YouTube link)- five parts to this series and oozing everything I want to try and capture

 

Then there are the ironstone lines with the Gratham and Woolsthorpe links posted elsewhere on this forum. Plus the excellent books my Eric Tonks.

 

 

 

Other inspiration comes from others - The OTCM Blog, Kirkmellington, West Halton Sidings, plus Ruston, Adam, Barclay, Whitemoor and PGH of this Parish. 

 

So on the dining table at the moment, we have a couple of Janus, a pair of 16" Hunslets (Ring Haw and Jacks Green), a 50550 in development and a bunch of wagons.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Down_Under

[Down_Under]

Next up is a Janus or two. The first started life as a Oxford Rail/Golden Valley Hobbies RTR unit. The Second is a pure Judith Edge kit and will be built up as a ironstone loco.




Now, I don't profess to be an expert on these locos and all there differences, so comments and corrects are welcome. Most of my comments are simply observation of the prototypes and/or discussions with people in the past.

A quick google of Janus will throw up a heap of material and images. My personal favorites are here and here on Fickr. Most of these are steel works or ironstone locomotives, since that is where the majority ended up. Images of those that were supplied to the NCB and working seem to be few and far between.

James over at West Halton Sidings has a excellent collection of photos and details of the Judith Edge kit here and a review of the Oxford Rail Model here

Plus there is Ruston's Excellent thread on the Janus


Lets start with the Oxford Rail Janus. It is true that they did pick an odd prototype - with cut outs in the buffer beam for hand rails, and one air inlet covered and the other open. But it comes with some nice bits of detail from behind the valances, and I quite like the exhaust covers that flip up. After some umming and arrgghh-ing I have decided to keep this one as a NCB example (the paint job is pretty good), which means it keeps the paint, but little modification (detailing) required.

There does not seem to be many images of NCB examples (believe there was only 6), most are off #6 'Roger H. Bennett' in preservation, more sleuthing required here. If you know of any feel free to post up links etc.

Here is one in action (can anyone ID the loco?), with the main variants/modifications being

• the need to fill the buffer beam cut outs, fill in the NEM tension lock holes (Judith edge half etch overlay),
• fit larger buffers (Alan Gibson large 24" industrial buffers),
• front headlight/handrails - scratch build (or speak nicely to Mr Edge for the resin one)
• replace flimsy coupling rods (Judith Edge Etch - supplied with EM/P4 Chassis - but a nice word might get you some along with some work plates)
• works plates - Mr Edge or Narrow Planet.

This image is from the Chasewater Blog - another excellent record/blog. Does anyone know the ID of this Loco? Can’t imagine anything more terrifying that bombing down a country lane in your triumph stag to find a Janus lumbering out the hedgerow!

The RTR version measures up pretty well with the Judith Edge drawing. Correct length, height etc.



This is the first chassis I have built in a long while - so I figured a easy 0-6-0 to start things off. This chassis is designed to bolt straight in, no modification required.








The chassis is a snug fit and did require a little filing of the half etch cusp to fit withing the buffer beams.

Coupling rods. As supplied they are solid and I think designed to articulate on the center crankpin. I opted to make it more prototypical as they are supplied as three etches and articulated on the knuckle as per the real thing. So out with the piecing saw it was.



These mostly went smoothly. I only soldered in the 0.45mm wire once, or maybe twice. I was a little over-zealous with the solder first time round, and some filing was needed. I was pleasantly surprised that it worked as intended. Not bad for first attempt! I fitted the little steel bushes supplied by Alan Gibson. These are just a push fit - I guess people recommend soldering these in? This gave me some confidence to solder up the chassis.




Within a short while (couple of hours) I had a mostly rolling chassis. I say mostly, as in my eagerness and new found confidence I soldered all the chassis spacers only to find in bound and it wasn't quiet square. So some un-soldering and re-soldering was required (de-soldering braid is handy stuff!). Now I'm not total sold on this chassis jig - I found it a bit of a faff. Maybe because I have to pack it up and move it all the time, or I was in a hurry or I'm just learning and have hamfists. Practice I guess. Anyway here it is!




Rods an wheels attached. Using the JE style compensation. Which also works. Mike has suggest using a little scrap etch to keep the compensation beams against the chassis as these seem to like to wander towards the middle of the axle. I may go to hornblocks and modify to a central pivot beam. Not sure. Part of the fun!

I guess next up will be sorting out a motor, box and some detailing




J

 

Last edited to add rustons thread which I somehow had missed.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Down_Under

[Michael Edge]

Thanks for posting all this, hope we sell a few.

Thanks also for pointing me towards that blog about building one of our kits, there's some interesting stuff on there. I like the way he says he can't remember who taught him to solder the layers of the buffer beams together (running solder round the edges) - he might just have seen it in the kit instructions.......

Mike and Judith

[Down_Under]

Thanks for posting all this, hope we sell a few.

Thanks also for pointing me towards that blog about building one of our kits, there's some interesting stuff on there. I like the way he says he can't remember who taught him to solder the layers of the buffer beams together (running solder round the edges) - he might just have seen it in the kit instructions.......

Mike and Judith

No worries Mike! Thanks for making up the chassis and making me get of my butt and make some models! The chassis goes together really quickly.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Down_Under

[doilum]

Inspiration - well we all need some now and then, and this is where I get mine.

 

I grew up watching 'Trains Now Departing' and I have lost track of how many times I've seen 'Lines of Industry' (YouTube Link) - I still re-watch this from time to time. The Ironstone tramways and NCB lines really captured my imagination back when I was younger.  I grew up in the Northwest surrounded my the remnants of a industrial past, before going to Uni up in Edinburgh in the mid 2000's, and spent a few years in between studies cycling round lanes, peering over hedges from the Borders to Fife at relics of from another era. So there is going to be a strong midlands Ironstone and a Scottish - to NE England theme to some NCB modelling. 

Recently there have been some excellent videos of Astley Green (YouTube link)- five parts to this series and oozing everything I want to try and capture

 

Then there are the ironstone lines with the Gratham and Woolsthorpe links posted elsewhere on this forum. Plus the excellent books my Eric Tonks.

 

 

IMG_9291.JPG

 

Other inspiration comes from others - The OTCM Blog, Kirkmellington, West Halton Sidings, plus Ruston, Adam, Barclay, Whitemoor and PGH of this Parish. 

 

So on the dining table at the moment, we have a couple of Janus, a pair of 16" Hunslets (Ring Haw and Jacks Green), a 50550 in development and a bunch of wagons.

Inspiration - well we all need some now and then, and this is where I get mine.

 

I grew up watching 'Trains Now Departing' and I have lost track of how many times I've seen 'Lines of Industry' (YouTube Link) - I still re-watch this from time to time. The Ironstone tramways and NCB lines really captured my imagination back when I was younger.  I grew up in the Northwest surrounded my the remnants of a industrial past, before going to Uni up in Edinburgh in the mid 2000's, and spent a few years in between studies cycling round lanes, peering over hedges from the Borders to Fife at relics of from another era. So there is going to be a strong midlands Ironstone and a Scottish - to NE England theme to some NCB modelling. 

Recently there have been some excellent videos of Astley Green (YouTube link)- five parts to this series and oozing everything I want to try and capture

 

Then there are the ironstone lines with the Gratham and Woolsthorpe links posted elsewhere on this forum. Plus the excellent books my Eric Tonks.

 

 

IMG_9291.JPG

 

Other inspiration comes from others - The OTCM Blog, Kirkmellington, West Halton Sidings, plus Ruston, Adam, Barclay, Whitemoor and PGH of this Parish. 

 

So on the dining table at the moment, we have a couple of Janus, a pair of 16" Hunslets (Ring Haw and Jacks Green), a 50550 in development and a bunch of wagons.

Not sure of postage cost but try Castleford Colliery Railways by the late Ron Rockett. Less than ten of our punds on Amazon. Includes S112 the only 50550 owned by the NCB.

[Porcy Mane]

 

This image is from the Chasewater Blog - another excellent record/blog. Does anyone know the ID of this Loco? Can’t imagine anything more terrifying that bombing down a country lane in your triumph stag to find a Janus lumbering out the hedgerow!

 

 

Pretty certain that's NCB No. 6 (YE 2746 of 1959) The Centre oval plate it carries, is the BTC registration plate, numbered 2955 but strangely dated 1958. The plates the loco carry in preservation are placed differently to when owned by the NCB.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Porcy Mane

[Gordon A]

Down_Under, any progress on the Janus chassis?

 

Gordon A

[doilum]

Next up is a Janus or two. The first started life as a Oxford Rail/Golden Valley Hobbies RTR unit. The Second is a pure Judith Edge kit and will be built up as a ironstone loco.

IMG_9284.JPG

Now, I don't profess to be an expert on these locos and all there differences, so comments and corrects are welcome. Most of my comments are simply observation of the prototypes and/or discussions with people in the past.

A quick google of Janus will throw up a heap of material and images. My personal favorites are here and here on Fickr. Most of these are steel works or ironstone locomotives, since that is where the majority ended up. Images of those that were supplied to the NCB and working seem to be few and far between.

James over at West Halton Sidings has a excellent collection of photos and details of the Judith Edge kit here and a review of the Oxford Rail Model here

Plus there is Ruston's Excellent thread on the Janus

Lets start with the Oxford Rail Janus. It is true that they did pick an odd prototype - with cut outs in the buffer beam for hand rails, and one air inlet covered and the other open. But it comes with some nice bits of detail from behind the valances, and I quite like the exhaust covers that flip up. After some umming and arrgghh-ing I have decided to keep this one as a NCB example (the paint job is pretty good), which means it keeps the paint, but little modification (detailing) required.

There does not seem to be many images of NCB examples (believe there was only 6), most are off #6 'Roger H. Bennett' in preservation, more sleuthing required here. If you know of any feel free to post up links etc.

Here is one in action (can anyone ID the loco?), with the main variants/modifications being

 

• the need to fill the buffer beam cut outs, fill in the NEM tension lock holes (Judith edge half etch overlay),
• fit larger buffers (Alan Gibson large 24" industrial buffers),
• front headlight/handrails - scratch build (or speak nicely to Mr Edge for the resin one)
• replace flimsy coupling rods (Judith Edge Etch - supplied with EM/P4 Chassis - but a nice word might get you some along with some work plates)
• works plates - Mr Edge or Narrow Planet.

This image is from the Chasewater Blog - another excellent record/blog. Does anyone know the ID of this Loco? Can’t imagine anything more terrifying that bombing down a country lane in your triumph stag to find a Janus lumbering out the hedgerow!

The RTR version measures up pretty well with the Judith Edge drawing. Correct length, height etc.

IMG_1659.JPG

This is the first chassis I have built in a long while - so I figured a easy 0-6-0 to start things off. This chassis is designed to bolt straight in, no modification required.

IMG_1652.JPG

IMG_1664.JPG

IMG_1675.JPG

The chassis is a snug fit and did require a little filing of the half etch cusp to fit withing the buffer beams.

Coupling rods. As supplied they are solid and I think designed to articulate on the center crankpin. I opted to make it more prototypical as they are supplied as three etches and articulated on the knuckle as per the real thing. So out with the piecing saw it was.

Coupling Rods.JPG

These mostly went smoothly. I only soldered in the 0.45mm wire once, or maybe twice. I was a little over-zealous with the solder first time round, and some filing was needed. I was pleasantly surprised that it worked as intended. Not bad for first attempt! I fitted the little steel bushes supplied by Alan Gibson. These are just a push fit - I guess people recommend soldering these in? This gave me some confidence to solder up the chassis.

IMG_4390.JPG

Within a short while (couple of hours) I had a mostly rolling chassis. I say mostly, as in my eagerness and new found confidence I soldered all the chassis spacers only to find in bound and it wasn't quiet square. So some un-soldering and re-soldering was required (de-soldering braid is handy stuff!). Now I'm not total sold on this chassis jig - I found it a bit of a faff. Maybe because I have to pack it up and move it all the time, or I was in a hurry or I'm just learning and have hamfists. Practice I guess. Anyway here it is!

IMG_4428.JPG

Rods an wheels attached. Using the JE style compensation. Which also works. Mike has suggest using a little scrap etch to keep the compensation beams against the chassis as these seem to like to wander towards the middle of the axle. I may go to hornblocks and modify to a central pivot beam. Not sure. Part of the fun!

I guess next up will be sorting out a motor, box and some detailing

IMG_4394.JPG

J

 

Last edited to add rustons thread which I somehow had missed.

More frightening than a Triumph Stag?

I was marshaling on the Dukeries rally in the mid'80s. We were on a junction just behind Clipstone colliery. The sun was shining, birds singing and the course opening car 00 had just sped past by. The sound of car 01 could be heard barking it's way through the stage ever closer. Then a sudden clanking noise, a shunter very similar to the Janus reversed down the head shunt and left a run of 16 tonners parked across the road.

Much running, an exchchange of industrial language and a train moved with seconds to spare.

Happy days.

[Down_Under]

Down_Under, any progress on the Janus chassis?

 

Gordon A

Not much has happened this last couple of weeks - getting back into work and waiting on a few supplies to arrive from the motherland. I had contemplated tackling the brake gear one evening. Got a long weekend coming up, so some modelling time has been booked in for then so expect and update Sunday/Monday

[Gordon A]

Thanks for the reply D_U.

I am waiting to see what motor and gear box you opt for.

 

Gordon A

[Down_Under]

G/day Gordon,

 

Might be able to help you out there as I have a couple of geabox and motors in stock. I was gonna do one withe a cheapy Mistumi and the other a Mishima 12*20 both through High Level Gearboxes. The Mistumi that I have is very similar in dimension to the Mashima

 

 

 

They both fit within the Oxford Rail Body - the Mitsumi is ever so slightly wider than than the Mashima - not sure how hot they get - there is just a air gap but not much (maybe save this one for the Judith Edge Kit?)

 

 

A open frame Mashima 10*24 also fits nicely - sorry I forgot to snap this

 

Now to to gearboxes - I have a couple of High Level 'Load Haulers' - one is a compact and the other a a '+' version with a drive stretcher. I think they are both 80:1 - but I will have to check. The frames are nice and deep, and so is the buffer beam so the motor can be kept kinda low

 

I was trying to keep the motor out of the cab (So I could add an interior) and my thoughts at this stage are about powering one of axles at either the #1 or #2 end like thus:

 

 

 

you could also drive the middle axle and have the motor pointing the other way

 

 

Other options I was thinking about - slightly simpler using the good 'ol 60:1 box driving the #1 or 2 axle with the motor vertical - even space for a fly wheel

 

 

I'm not sold on either one just yet. I am thinking perhaps a 80:1 mircomiser in the vertical position might be the best option?

Edited January 26, 2019 by Down_Under

[Michael Edge]

The Mitsumi motors run fairly cool but they are rather slow. i don't know if you have tried the "square" motors, these are very powerful but do run rather hot. I've experimented with lots of these cheap Chinese motors and have quite a few running, no failures at all so far.

[Michael Edge]

G/day Gordon,

 

Might be able to help you out there as I have a couple of geabox and motors in stock. I was gonna do one withe a cheapy Mistumi and the other a Mishima 12*20 both through High Level Gearboxes. The Mistumi that I have is very similar in dimension to the Mashima

 

IMG_9600.JPG

 

IMG_9601.JPG

 

They both fit within the Oxford Rail Body - the Mitsumi is ever so slightly wider than than the Mashima - not sure how hot they get - there is just a air gap but not much (maybe save this one for the Judith Edge Kit?)

 

IMG_9606.JPG

 

A open frame Mashima 12*24 also fits nicely - sorry I forgot to snap this

 

Now to to gearboxes - I have a couple of High Level 'Load Haulers' - one is a compact and the other a a '+' version with a drive stretcher. I think they are both 80:1 - but I will have to check. The frames are nice and deep, and so is the buffer beam so the motor can be kept kinda low

 

I was trying to keep the motor out of the cab (So I could add an interior) and my thoughts at this stage are about powering one of axles at either the #1 or #2 end like thus:

 

IMG_9603.JPG

 

IMG_9604.JPG

 

you could also drive the middle axle and have the motor pointing the other way

 

IMG_9605.JPG

 

Other options I was thinking about - slightly simpler using the good 'ol 60:1 box driving the #1 or 2 axle with the motor vertical - even space for a fly wheel

 

IMG_9609.JPG

 

I'm not sold on either one just yet. I am thinking perhaps a 80:1 mircomiser in the vertical position might be the best option?

 

At the risk of being seen blowing our own trumpet - you can't do this sort of planning with anyone else's kits, ours are the only ones with a complete accurate print of the drawing of the whole loco.

[Gordon A]

Thanks for the reply D_U I had also come to the conclusion that a 1220 motor would be the one to use.

The internal width in the bonnet is only 13mm.

I am looking at a RoadRunner + with the swinging arm driving on the middle axle. 

Have you tried screwing the body to the chassis yet? I found that I had to cut a 3mm x 3mm hole out of the chassis to accommodate

the Oxf Rail screw heads with the frames built with P4 spacers.

 

Gordon A

[Down_Under]

Thanks for the reply D_U I had also come to the conclusion that a 1220 motor would be the one to use.

The internal width in the bonnet is only 13mm.

I am looking at a RoadRunner + with the swinging arm driving on the middle axle. 

Have you tried screwing the body to the chassis yet? I found that I had to cut a 3mm x 3mm hole out of the chassis to accommodate

the Oxf Rail screw heads with the frames built with P4 spacers.

 

Gordon A

Yes, when helping Mike with the chassis it was apparent you would need to trim the chassis a little to use the Oxf Rail holes, I haven't cut them out yet, just offered it up dry. This weekend should be a running chassis and loco.

 

I think one settled on a loadhauler compact

 

 

It looks like it should clear all the spacers and just enough space for a flywheel. Otherwise a 14mm drive stretcher may be required (or a smaller flywheel)

 

Regarding the Mashima Mike - I haven't tried the square motors yet. So if the moto (e.g Mitsumi) is slower revving a lower range box can be used to use the torques?

 

James

 

Ps - its a awesome help having the scale drawings - takes a lot of the guess work away!

[Michael Edge]

I've used ratios of the order of 30:1 with good results, initial trial was about 54:1 which I thought was too slow (in a steam loco). The customer was happy with it though. In Bo+Bo electric locos they are fine on about 20:1.

I've got one of the square motors in a diesel shunter, bolted straight on to a High Level gearbox, runs OK so far but does get a bit hot.