Heljan 47 Chassis issues

[Golden Fleece 30]

Boxes surely cannot be the problem causing the Mazak issues otherwise every Heljan loco would have crumpled or broken up? Mazak has always had issues from pre war Hornby Dublo to now IF there is contamination in the metal.

[adb968008]

Boxes surely cannot be the problem causing the Mazak issues otherwise every Heljan loco would have crumpled or broken up? Mazak has always had issues from pre war Hornby Dublo to now IF there is contamination in the metal.

Maybe not cause, but possible accelerator.

The polystyrene boxes are insulators of heat (having the poly boxes in your loft probably saves your heating bill). In summer I've seen models sweat / condensate on a hot day in boxes.. (Greenhouse effect, the lid traps in the heat), worst cases I've seen body shells warp on a hot day exposed to the sun at outdoor swap meets when the lids been on the box...and it wasn't that hot or been exposed that long, when it happened.

Sun aside, storage in a warm place with no ventilation of the content trapping moisture in box may not be ideal.

This undoubtably can pass on moisture to the models inside.

Moisture can certainly speed up rot, of most metals.

 

I know bubble wrap is worse.. I once had a model in bubble wrap, which when unwrapped saw the body shell covered in an oily wet residue where it was interacting with the body shell plastic.

[tractor_37260]

I was wondering if anyone can help me.

I have a solitary Heljan 47 (D1662) before I knew of the Mazak issues.

 

Mine seems ok, but for one aspect, on one bodyside a retaining lug won't fit correctly.

The body comes off and on OK.

I doesn't seem to be getting worse in the last 6 months.

 

I've attached some pictures here.

 

I guess what I am looking for is the tell tale signs of rot. Examining the chassis I don't see any of the noodle cracking that I've seen on steam locos (31401/35005/92220/T9 120/ /92221) on this chassis but admittedly it's a big block of metal.

 

Looking around the net I can see a lot of "effect pictures" of the 47 bodies but not many pictures of the causal chassis.

 

My question is is my chassis ok ?

How long does it take for the effects to "mature" once it starts

And does anyone have any pictures of the chassis in its rotting state ?

 

I would like a couple more Heljan 47s but is there a "lemon list" and or how easy do these go onto an alternative chassis ?

 

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Normally the first sign there's an issue, it will become near impossible to remove the bodyshell, due to the chassis expanding, it gets jammed on solid. On worst cases, the chassis expands that much it will split the bodyshell at one or both ends, sometimes quite dramatically. Another sign is the tank moulding will get pushed off due to a swelling/bulge in the chassis bottom.

 

I have a number of Heljan 47's and have only had chassis problems with 2 of them. One was an early RES example where the body resisted all efforts to get if off, Howes replaced it FOC. On the other I managed to get the body off eventually, and after extensive filing down of the sides/front edges etc it's still too tight a fit to put a bodyshell on it - ( it must be expanding quicker that I'm filing it away  ) and I don't think Howes have any replacements left ? 

[BrushVeteran]

..................................................and I don't think Howes have any replacements left ? 

Correct neither HeljanDK or Howes (HeljanUK) have any spare chassis frames for Class 47's.

[John Tomlinson]

Chassis do come up on ebay from time to time, although I appreciate that such a purchase shouldn't be necessary.

 

The other thing to look out for is deterioration of the wheelsets on the earlier batches, and on other loco classes. I tried to run my blue 1932 ( now changed to 1662 IKB) the other day after a good while in store. It wouldn't move at all because of the coating that builds up on the wheels and prevents electrical conductivity. I tried Slaters wheel cleaner without effect, and finally succeeded only by applying power direct to the metal pickup wipers for rotation and a sanding stick to the wheels! It nows runs perfectly, to my relief, having standardised on the Heljan 47 for my fleet many years ago.

 

This issue, due apparently to the factory applied chemical blackening continuing to be active for years, was flagged a long time ago, and I assumed then that a quick clean would solve the problem. With this experience I've decided that at such time as Howes have replacement wheelsets in stock again they will be receiving quite a large order!

 

John.

[BrushVeteran]

Chassis do come up on ebay from time to time, although I appreciate that such a purchase shouldn't be necessary.

 

The other thing to look out for is deterioration of the wheelsets on the earlier batches, and on other loco classes. I tried to run my blue 1932 ( now changed to 1662 IKB) the other day after a good while in store. It wouldn't move at all because of the coating that builds up on the wheels and prevents electrical conductivity. I tried Slaters wheel cleaner without effect, and finally succeeded only by applying power direct to the metal pickup wipers for rotation and a sanding stick to the wheels! It nows runs perfectly, to my relief, having standardised on the Heljan 47 for my fleet many years ago.

 

This issue, due apparently to the factory applied chemical blackening continuing to be active for years, was flagged a long time ago, and I assumed then that a quick clean would solve the problem. With this experience I've decided that at such time as Howes have replacement wheelsets in stock again they will be receiving quite a large order!

 

John.

John

 

Howes now have the wheelsets back in stock .

 

Grahame

[tractor_37260]

Chassis do come up on ebay from time to time, although I appreciate that such a purchase shouldn't be necessary.

 

The other thing to look out for is deterioration of the wheelsets on the earlier batches, and on other loco classes. I tried to run my blue 1932 ( now changed to 1662 IKB) the other day after a good while in store. It wouldn't move at all because of the coating that builds up on the wheels and prevents electrical conductivity. I tried Slaters wheel cleaner without effect, and finally succeeded only by applying power direct to the metal pickup wipers for rotation and a sanding stick to the wheels! It nows runs perfectly, to my relief, having standardised on the Heljan 47 for my fleet many years ago.

 

This issue, due apparently to the factory applied chemical blackening continuing to be active for years, was flagged a long time ago, and I assumed then that a quick clean would solve the problem. With this experience I've decided that at such time as Howes have replacement wheelsets in stock again they will be receiving quite a large order!

 

John.

 

As another HJ duff user, if you clean the original wheel treads back with a glass fibre pencil or 1000 grade wet'dry paper used dry, until they shine, thereafter all that's required is to clean the dirt off that collects at regular intervals with a cotton bud and some white spirit or IPA etc, 

 

If purchasing replacement HJ wheelsets from Howes, as only the outer axles pick up, 2 packs or 6 axles will do 3 locos etc, or depending on prices differences,  the 4 axle sets could also be used.

 

I have locos with the original and some with new wheelsets, both run well, provided you clean the treads/track regularly, it's also worth checking all pick up strips are making a clean' proper contact with the wheel backs.

[randa2007]

I'm hoping someone will have an idea about my issue with 2 Heljan 47s. Both of them have a 1mm gap between the railhead and tanks and are grounding out. I have been reading up on this chassis problem and it seems that the tanks clearance is the first sign of a problem. Well I took the bodies off quite easily and put a metal ruler along the bottom of the chassis and found them dead straight, not a hint of any deformation. The tanks appear to be perfect and fit correctly.

So any ideas, I'm lost as to the cause.

Rob

www.pen-gos.com

[Bristol_Rich]

Just as a matter of precaution I would store the loco with the body removed.

 

This is exactly how my locos started and ended up blowing the body and the frame distorted resembling a banana. If you look closely at the factory applied coating on the mazak you will see areas of small crazing where deterioration is starting.

Just as a matter of precaution I would store the loco with the body removed.

 

This is exactly how my locos started and ended up blowing the body and the frame distorted resembling a banana. If you look closely at the factory applied coating on the mazak you will see areas of small crazing where deterioration is starting to take hold.

[JSpencer]

Chassis do come up on ebay from time to time, although I appreciate that such a purchase shouldn't be necessary.

 

The other thing to look out for is deterioration of the wheelsets on the earlier batches, and on other loco classes. I tried to run my blue 1932 ( now changed to 1662 IKB) the other day after a good while in store. It wouldn't move at all because of the coating that builds up on the wheels and prevents electrical conductivity. I tried Slaters wheel cleaner without effect, and finally succeeded only by applying power direct to the metal pickup wipers for rotation and a sanding stick to the wheels! It nows runs perfectly, to my relief, having standardised on the Heljan 47 for my fleet many years ago.

 

This issue, due apparently to the factory applied chemical blackening continuing to be active for years, was flagged a long time ago, and I assumed then that a quick clean would solve the problem. With this experience I've decided that at such time as Howes have replacement wheelsets in stock again they will be receiving quite a large order!

 

John.

A fibre glass pen is good at removing those nasty oxides that build up without damaging the surface of the wheel. The problem with sand based products is that it will scratch the surface making dirt build up faster.

[randa2007]

I was wondering if anyone knows what years of manufacture and the catalogue numbers of the class 47 that gave this issue. What then, would be a safe year of manufacture to buy a 47?

My contact with Heljan and Howes has been ignored.

[stovepipe]

The models generally affected seem to be the early models released in 2003/4, usually in boxes with white polystyrene inserts, and soft cardboard lids. These models will generally have the yellow brass wheels. There may also be some problems in the slightly later batches which have the black foam inserts, and soft cardboard lids.

 

The ones in the hard heavy duty cardboard boxes, the style that was current until 2 years ago, seem to be ok. I have one of these later ones, catalogue #4747 which dates from around 2010, it appears to be OK.

 

It is hard to be completely accurate as locos do get their chassis changed around; I would advise getting one of the later hard boxed ones, or physically inspecting a middle period box loco. I personally would regard all the models in white polystyrene boxes as potentially suspect.

[Melly]

I'm hoping someone will have an idea about my issue with 2 Heljan 47s. Both of them have a 1mm gap between the railhead and tanks and are grounding out. I have been reading up on this chassis problem and it seems that the tanks clearance is the first sign of a problem. Well I took the bodies off quite easily and put a metal ruler along the bottom of the chassis and found them dead straight, not a hint of any deformation. The tanks appear to be perfect and fit correctly.

So any ideas, I'm lost as to the cause.

Rob

www.pen-gos.com

 

Just google it - mainly the old forum as it's an issue from several years ago.  All the locos affected were listed and it appeared to be mainly restricted to these.  As for the storage of bodies off chassis - its a red herring IMHO . . . . won't stop the issue just saves the body if the chassis goes banana.  Once the chassis goes there's no rescuing it.   With the paucity of 47 production these past few years and the ViTrains one in a pause from production I for one would like to see the 'Tubby Duff' remain in sporadic production.

[TRAILRAGE]

I've only had a chassis issue with 1 of my models , that being RX limited edition DRS 47237. Cannot for the life of me get the body off, and although the chassis expansion has slowed right down ( its been in the garage which is lined and Insulated) there is definitely a slight bow on the underside where the tanks sit. I also have a couple of other 47's that the body wont shift on these being 47375 RFD, 47798 Royal Plum, 47847 BR. Whilst trying to get the body of 47847 I dropped it!  Cracking a cab window pillar (repairable), breaking off one of the pins on the transverse  bogie pivot (Repairable need to make a new pin for it) and snapping a drive cup of the worm on the gear tower (not repairable and not sure what to do as it shattered and there's no spares listed on Howe's website unless they use the same part on locos like the 52 or 58). I did eventually manage to get the body off by putting two fingers inside the chassis whilst holding open the body as much as my fingers would let me and pulling very hard. didn't do any damage but the thickness of the seams on the chassis and inside the body were horrendous. So not surprised.

  Other models are 47076 in BR blue, 47245 RFD, 47744 EWS, 47782 RES,47829 POLICE. On all of these the bodies came straight off so I lightly sanded the chassis down but on the inside of the bodies they all had heavy mould seems which have also been smoothed down. I've also done a model of 47317 FD (ex 47212 FP). On this model I stripped everything of the chassis and used a coarse file to reduce the width slightly (man that Mazak is hard stuff!) I then moved to an electric sander with coarse paper finishing with fine glass paper and a track rubber. Took about a week to do in between feeding times with me liitleman, but has made a huge difference with being able to get into it for maintenance. I also noticed that the body sat better on the chassis after this was done looking just slightly less tubby.

 

Hope any of this is helpful

 

Regards Trailrage

[Ray M]

While working in  Sheffield the other day, i thought i would call at Olivias trains. Just to see if i could get myself a

NOS Heljan class 47 chassis.

Got 1 (£40) well chuffed.

I just thought i would share these photos with you, good folk.

One is the new chassis, which measured the same width, all the way along its length.

the others i will let you suss, for your self.

I must admit,

I did attack this chassis , with a file, about 5 years ago.  Just to see if i could get the body to fit.

it just kept growing.

So i left it in the loft, until now ?

[SouthernBlue80s]

Hi all I posted this in the wanted section as well, but thought someone might be able to help me here

 

I am currently recreating 47324

https://www.flickr.c...1-bkmcA8-7xZ5Nj

 

I have a chassis, side window glazing and a body.

All I need are the front windscreens at both ends.

 

Has any one got some front windscreens they can sell me from a Mazak effected body, so I can complete my project.

Any help appreciated.

 

(My Heljan 47s seem to be OK....I am keeping my fingers crossed for my Hornby 31s, as I have put alot of work into them)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...One is the new chassis, which measured the same width, all the way along its length.

the others I will let you suss, for your self. I must admit I did attack this chassis with a file, about 5 years ago.  Just to see if I could get the body to fit, it just kept growing.

So iI left it in the loft, until now ?

Just a small point, presumably a cold loft in winter?

 

It may be counter-intuitive, but progress of  'Mazak Rot' is accelerated by lower temperatures. This is because it is a change in the crystalline structure of the alloy, and the structure it changes too is the more stable one at lower temperatures. Best to keep any suspect castings at normal room temperatures...

[TRAILRAGE]

I've only had a chassis issue with 1 of my models , that being RX limited edition DRS 47237. Cannot for the life of me get the body off, and although the chassis expansion has slowed right down ( its been in the garage which is lined and Insulated) there is definitely a slight bow on the underside where the tanks sit. I also have a couple of other 47's that the body wont shift on these being 47375 RFD, 47798 Royal Plum, 47847 BR. Whilst trying to get the body of 47847 I dropped it!  Cracking a cab window pillar (repairable), breaking off one of the pins on the transverse  bogie pivot (Repairable need to make a new pin for it) and snapping a drive cup of the worm on the gear tower (not repairable and not sure what to do as it shattered and there's no spares listed on Howe's website unless they use the same part on locos like the 52 or 58). I did eventually manage to get the body off by putting two fingers inside the chassis whilst holding open the body as much as my fingers would let me and pulling very hard. didn't do any damage but the thickness of the seams on the chassis and inside the body were horrendous. So not surprised.

  Other models are 47076 in BR blue, 47245 RFD, 47744 EWS, 47782 RES,47829 POLICE. On all of these the bodies came straight off so I lightly sanded the chassis down but on the inside of the bodies they all had heavy mould seems which have also been smoothed down. I've also done a model of 47317 FD (ex 47212 FP). On this model I stripped everything of the chassis and used a coarse file to reduce the width slightly (man that Mazak is hard stuff!) I then moved to an electric sander with coarse paper finishing with fine glass paper and a track rubber. Took about a week to do in between feeding times with me liitleman, but has made a huge difference with being able to get into it for maintenance. I also noticed that the body sat better on the chassis after this was done looking just slightly less tubby.

 

Hope any of this is helpful

 

Regards Trailrage

Just an add on to this previous post I finally managed to get the bodies of 47237, 47375 and 47798. On 47237 the cab split at one end and it took me and my father to get the bloody thing off! Should be able to fix the body and will try and file?grind the chassis down. I tried a different method on the next two. To do this I had to remove a bogie at one end of the loco and use a finger to pull the chassis at a slight angle whilst holding the body. sound s more difficult than it was but saved me braking another body! As for 47829 watch this space! as I forgot I had this one until reading this.

 

Cheers Trailrage

[GordonC]

Hi all I posted this in the wanted section as well, but thought someone might be able to help me here

 

I am currently recreating 47324

https://www.flickr.c...1-bkmcA8-7xZ5Nj

 

I have a chassis, side window glazing and a body.

All I need are the front windscreens at both ends.

 

Has any one got some front windscreens they can sell me from a Mazak effected body, so I can complete my project.

Any help appreciated.

 

(My Heljan 47s seem to be OK....I am keeping my fingers crossed for my Hornby 31s, as I have put alot of work into them)

 

alternatively have you considered some Lazerglaze? pretty sure Shawplan will do a Heljan Class 47 for the glazing

[Hugh Flynn]

Hi

Well Mark at the club brought up his loco to the club for a run - this is what he found. A class 47 with a nose????

 

[bescotbeast]

Hi

Well Mark at the club brought up his loco to the club for a run - this is what he found. A class 47 with a nose????

God that is a sad sight, I've got 4 Heljan 47's and thankfully all are fine with no signs of rot.

[cs233]

Heljan should still produce replacements, there are so many 47's out there that spares would be in demand. As the Heljan 47 tooling has likely paid for itself many times over they could still offer various complete loco releases and undercut the Bachmann offering.

[adb968008]

I Only have 1 Heljan 47.. fortunately I saw the Mazak Horror Videos just as I started ramping up my collection, and so only have 1 Heljan, a WR named 47 as Bachmann seems a bit shy on these.

 

I store it without the body.

 

I do think the 47 could do with a competitor to Bachmann in the market place. The 47 is a must for the modeller with almost as many livery variants as there are 47s built.

Even in Lima's day it had the Hornby competition, replaced by the Heljan and VItrains models.

 

My fleet is a combination of 40+ Lima bodies, with 12 Hornby Chassis's as a resource, and Bachmann models.

The 47's date back from my earlier days in the 90's and recently disposed of the Lima chassis to buy £34.50 47033's from Rails.. one paid for the other. Boxes/47033 bodies went on ebay though Ive still a few left.  

 

Lima bodies do well and sit ok next to Bachmann.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I do think the 47 could do with a competitor to Bachmann in the market place...

 But what kind of competitor? Vitrains didn't fly with a 'near equivalent' 47 (or with the 37 come to that) while Hornby still produce a 47. The available niche is the 'premium' slot  ISTM.

[cs233]

 But what kind of competitor? Vitrains didn't fly with a 'near equivalent' 47 (or with the 37 come to that) while Hornby still produce a 47. The available niche is the 'premium' slot  ISTM.

The Vitrains and Heljan are still reasonable models, they all have issues including the Bachmann offering (high intensity headlight) to mention one issue. If the Vitrains or Heljan were in the market priced at £85-£100 I still see a demand for what are reasonable toolings. The Heljan tooling as it dates from around 2001 and has earned its keep perhaps even with the commercials considered could be offered at a sub £85 price point.