Collector's Corner Graham Farish

[Il Grifone]

To get this started, I'll give a short history as I remember it, which may be incorrect and I would welcome more information/corrections.

 

I believe the first model was the Black 5 (GP5), which came with some strange 4 wheel coaches. This was followed by a 'Merchant Navy' (I read this is undersized and nearer to a West Country), a 'King' and a 'Prairie' tank. There were 2 series of wagons in dark brown, bauxite and grey - Van, 7 plank and steel minerals and a brake van and later 1, 3 and 5 plank opens and a bolster wagon. The first had diecast axleguard units and the second a tinplate unit. Coaches came as LMS? pattern non corridors and Pullman cars - Kitchen First with a variety of names (also in CIWL livery !) and a brake/3rd. There was also the three rail Formo series 0-6-0 + 4 wagons 7 plank & steel opens, van and brake. All? these were available irregularly during the fifties. The Formo wagons, I remember, were very unstable due to their tinplate wheel bearings and terrible wheels and would not run well on Dublo track despite the similarity with Formo track (a nicer version of Dublo track with embossed sleepers a larger radius and wider 'ballast'). Other wagons ran OK. Everything came with the neat, but eccentric Farish coupling, which will not couple with anything else due to its mounting height.

 

The early sixties saw a 94xx pannier (mine runs beautifully) and a reissue of the 'Prairie', the Pullmans, the non Corridor coaches (in kits) and a new series of plastic wagons. Other products were corridor coaches (promised as kits, but I think only R-T-R) and Formoway 00 (not H0! ) flexible track. This was followed by the 'Grafar' R-T-R era up to the mid 70s (possibly 80s?), after which all production switched to N gauge.

[DavidBelcher]

I've seen an early rendition (in the red and white GF packaging) of the suburban stock on eBay, slightly different to the kit coaches as the tinplate roofs had domed vents stamped on and the bogies used - in earlier batches at least - were the same as those on the Pullman cars.

 

I've had the odd bit of Formoway track down the years, in some ways I actually prefer it to Streamline but Peco's spring-lock point mechanism just shades it over the GF stuff.

 

David

[Il Grifone]

Speedy replies as always!

 

I don't know how I forgot the Hudson and her coaches. I intended to add it after the Formo items. I also forgot to mention that all items are subject to Mazak disease. The wagon bodies seem OK but everything else is at risk.

 

The great advantage of Formoway over Peco is that its to 00 rather than H0 scale. It's demise (together with Gem and Welkut) left us without a ready-to-lay 00 track.

[DavidBelcher]

Talk of the devil! Another Farish suburban with the domed roof vents and Pullman (I think) bogies as mentioned in my earlier post here;

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OO-GAUGE-Hornby-DUBLO-GRAFAR-3-RAIL-BREAKDOWN-COACH-/170487755266?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item27b1dcb202

 

There's also a Hudson and coaches up for grabs on there. Yours for a cool £398 as a "Buy It Now" purchase....

 

David

[DavidBelcher]

The great advantage of Formoway over Peco is that its to 00 rather than H0 scale. It's demise (together with Gem and Welkut) left us without a ready-to-lay 00 track.

 

Maybe I ought to try and track (no pun intended) down some second-hand Formoway. Now that my finances are slightly better than when I first started building layouts, I don't bother with mechanical point operation any more, so given the right model of point motor the locking needn't be an issue....

 

David

[Il Grifone]

Talk of the devil! Another Farish suburban with the domed roof vents and Pullman (I think) bogies as mentioned in my earlier post here;

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item27b1dcb202

 

There's also a Hudson and coaches up for grabs on there. Yours for a cool £398 as a "Buy It Now" purchase....

 

David

 

They appear to be HD bogies which would explain the 3 rail description. It's straight which suggests the sixties version. The first examples came with a diecast bogie with a plastic bearing unit. This was rubbish which would explain the choice of bogie.

 

There are some Formoway points on eBay, but they are rather expensive and 2 foot radius, which may or may not be a problem. Also they are not 'Liveway', which probably is.

The same seller also has some Pullmans.

 

http://collectables.shop.ebay.co.uk/Trains-Railway-Models-/479/i.html?_catref=1&_fln=1&_ipg=&_ssn=bigcass48&_trksid=p3911.c0.m282

[petethemole]

There are some Liveway points on at the moment as well, just noticed them while going for a wagon kit. the guy has 3 in all.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GRAHAM-FARISH-LIVEWAY-3-RADIUS-L-HAND-POINT-NEW-/150444568909?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item230731f14d

 

Pete

[DavidBelcher]

They appear to be HD bogies which would explain the 3 rail description. It's straight which suggests the sixties version. The first examples came with a diecast bogie with a plastic bearing unit. This was rubbish which would explain the choice of bogie.

 

Having built some of these coach kits, the composite diecast/plastic bogies are indeed not much cop - due to the way it all fits together they rarely sit level, hence they were ditched for MJT ones on my suburbans. The Maunsell-ish brake compo seems to have turned out a bit better though, plus the Farish bogies are OK for this as they seem to be based on the SR 8ft type.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Didn't the non-corridor coaches also come as r-t-r at some time in the 1960s?

 

Stashed away I have a reasonable pile of Formoway track (which I too much preferred to Streamline on appearance grounds but also because the range included a singe slip at quite an early date). Only problem with the points was that long plastic frog/crossing.

 

Somewhere I think I've still got some welkut track (originally 3 rail but 'converted' to 2 rail when I duly bit that bullet.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

There was one of the little GER 0-6-0Ts on ebay the other day. They were a nice little loco but the tiny plastic gear wheels split on the axles on the one I had. Then they changed the chassis design to the ones with the motor built in rather than the little oval can motor they had before and the 94xx pannier and the rather odd GP tank replaced the 0-6-0T and the chassis was quite a bit bigger than the earlier ones.

 

Formoway track always looked good, especially on the big full-page advert they used to have on the back of Railway Modeller every month with a big photo of a complex prototype junction and the various turnouts and track shown beneath it

[Il Grifone]

Didn't the non-corridor coaches also come as r-t-r at some time in the 1960s?

 

Stashed away I have a reasonable pile of Formoway track (which I too much preferred to Streamline on appearance grounds but also because the range included a singe slip at quite an early date). Only problem with the points was that long plastic frog/crossing.

 

Somewhere I think I've still got some welkut track (originally 3 rail but 'converted' to 2 rail when I duly bit that bullet.

 

The GF coaches appeared later in the sixties as R-T-R in 'Grafar' packaging. They were available in company liveries, whereas the kits came unpainted in black plastic. They appear to be of Southern design (approximately) for which their 8 foot wheelbase bogies would be correct. I have seen the non-corridors described as LMS 'Cathgart' stock, but comparing with photographs, they're not IMHO.

 

My Formoway plastic (Deadway?) crossings and check rails are scheduled for replacement with metal and PCB sleepers in due course. Running was indifferent to say the least with these. My Tri-ang based GWR 633 Class would always stall on these unless everything was freshly cleaned.

 

Is this the fibre based Welkut or the later plastic based type? I thought the latter only came in 2 rail. Anything 3 rail disappeared with the demise of Dublo.

[Guest spet0114]

Following Mr 32a's plea for photos (in the Kirdon thread), I thought I'd start showing a few bits of my nascent Grafar collection. Being of Poole origins, I've always had a soft spot for Farish, though paradoxically a particular interest in their early stuff made when they were still in Bromley.

 

Anyway, here's one of my Black 5's. It's had a hard life and will be receiving a little sympathetic restoration sometime in the future.

 

 

 

Of interest is that the cab lacks the usual raised numbering (44753), which I've been told means it's an early one (can anyone confirm?). I've read somewhere that the Black 5 was on the market quite shortly after the war and certainly before the Rovex Princess (1950). Would this mean that the early locos pre-date the cycling lion logo?

 

Cheers
Adrian

[BernardTPM]

The 'cycling lion' was already in use in 1949 so probably not.

[Guest spet0114]

The 'cycling lion' was already in use in 1949 so probably not.

 

Interesting, as all the sources I've seen quote either 1950 or 'early 50s' as the date of introduction. Can you point me in the direction of your source of this information, please? 

 

Thanks

Adrian

Edited October 29, 2013 by spet0114

[Il Grifone]

I thought it was 1949 too, contemporary with the decision on loco livery*. However I'll check and report back.

 

EDIT:

 

'Trains Illustrated' Oct.- Nov. 1949 has a photo of the then new 0-6-0PT no. 1500 with the lion. There is also a letter enquiring why Crewe was still painting express locos in black (Crewe =  LNWR = black?) rather than blue or green. The Feb. 1950** issue has photos of 30863, 70000 (mock-up of firebox, cab and front of tender), 60012 (at Newcastle during relaying of the crossing dated 1949), 60532 and1600.

It did of course take some time to be become general - I can't remember ever having seen a loco with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS', though I can remember a GWR 3 car diesel unit still in GWR livery in 1954. (I was quite young at the time.)

 

* IIRC The date was August 1949. Again IIRC the first GP5s had no tender markings. Certainly I have never seen any with 'LMS' or 'BRITISH RAILWAYS'.

 

** These photos would have had to be taken some time before to appear in the issues. (The February editorial states that, following relaxation of the paper restrictions, the next issue will be published on March 1st, so presumably the earlier issues were also published on the 1st.)

 

I believe the GP5 first appeared in 1949 and the Rovex Princess in 1950 (correct me if wrong). The Korean war hindered further developments for a couple of years - hence the 2 pole Farish 'motor'. Trix just managed to change to BR liveries, whereas Dublo just managed to update their tank wagons - despite what has been written elsewhere, this occurred in time for me to receive them for Xmas 1951. I can remember the box still stating 'POWER ETHYL' however. ( I wondered why at the time.)

Edited October 29, 2013 by Il Grifone

[Evanelpus]

I believe the first model was the Black 5 (GP5), which came with some strange 4 wheel coaches. This was followed by a 'Merchant Navy' (I read this is undersized and nearer to a West Country)

This is actually not correct. The Merchant Navys were correct size, and quite correct in their proportions. There were 3 Merchant Navy models produced: Belgian Marine and Port Line in BR express blue, and Brocklebank Line in Southern dark Green. They also produced two West Country models using the same body casting: Plymouth in Southern green and Exeter in BR blue. Therefore, it is these models that are not the correct size, technically too long. There was one more model,  Battle of Britain class Sir Eustace Missenden in Southern green. This model also too long, was also available in "Golden Arrow" dress. The earliest versions of these models used a modified GP5 chassis, but later a redesigned chassis similar to the King chassis was used. These early versions of Belgian Marine were actually incorrectly named Belgium Marine!

[Evanelpus]

Following Mr 32a's plea for photos (in the Kirdon thread), I thought I'd start showing a few bits of my nascent Grafar collection. Being of Poole origins, I've always had a soft spot for Farish, though paradoxically a particular interest in their early stuff made when they were still in Bromley.

 

Anyway, here's one of my Black 5's. It's had a hard life and will be receiving a little sympathetic restoration sometime in the future.

 

 

 

Of interest is that the cab lacks the usual raised numbering (44753), which I've been told means it's an early one (can anyone confirm?). I've read somewhere that the Black 5 was on the market quite shortly after the war and certainly before the Rovex Princess (1950). Would this mean that the early locos pre-date the cycling lion logo?

 

Cheers

Adrian

Yes, I can confirm it is an early one, but not the earliest version. There are a few details that indicate this one dates from around 1950. Firstly, it has long front steps. The steps were shortened later as they tended to catch on trackside items. Secondly, the tender coupling is a one-piece casting. This proved troublesome because it would break at that point, also it wasn't a completely flexible coupling. Later GP5's have a small nickle plated coupling plate anchored by screws on each side, much more flexible. The slot that can be seen in the running plate near the valve gear indicates that the valve gear is attched to the chassis via a small plate. The earliest version had the valve gear attached to the body and the running plate area just has a small hole rather than a slot. One more indication is that the driving wheels are held on by a nickle plated plate on the underside of the chassis, it can be seen under the chassis. The earliest version had no plate and the axles were inserted directly into holes in the chassis. There was also a second spur gear between the 2nd and 3rd drivers. This one has only the one spur gear between the 1st and 2nd drivers. Hope that helps.

[5050]

A clubmate of mine (who is in his mid-70's) told me a week or two back when we were discussing GF, Kirdon etc. that, when he was a lad and lived in Bridlington, he and a friend cycled to Scarborough to Bobbies model shop where his friend (who had been saving his pocket and paper round money for weeks) bought  GF Black 5.  Please as punch they cycled back home to test it on his friend's layout - and it wouldn't go round the curves!  The motor (?) extension block from the tender into the cab restricted the amount of 'swing' on curves and it derailed every time.  Feeling rather pee'ed off they then had to cycle back to Scarborough to get a refund!

 

From the 1950 volume of Model railway News, here are a sequence of ads showing the Black 5 and other new introductions including the Merchant Navy/West Country.  The main point to notice is that the Black 5, in all the pictures of it - doesn't have any valve gear or indeed even a crosshead or connecting rod!

[Guest spet0114]

Well, it's got more valve gear than mine!

[Il Grifone]

I recall being told that GF products required 2 foot radius curves. Certainly the Pullmans derail on HD curves, due to lack of bogie swing. The 3 rail Formo sectional track is of larger radius than Dublo, though the Loco will run on Dublo track. Formo* wheels are not too happy on Dublo pointwork however and tend to drop in where the gauge wanders outward at the blades. (I found that out having bought two vans ( at 4/3d each IIRC). Fitting Dublo wheels would have been the answer, but I didn't have either  the expertise or the tools to remove them from their axles and refit them. (Formo wagons have two one-piece coupling and inside bearing units fitted with screws.)

 

* Graham Farish wheels are a bit wider and don't suffer from this problem. Couplings are another matter as the Farish coupling will only couple with itself. They are often found bent down so the hook will engage with other makes - they still give problems however. I had some wagons I fitted with Peco couplings (1/6d extra) and K's adapters (9d a pair). This made the wagon rather expensive!

[Guest spet0114]

Yes, I can confirm it is an early one, but not the earliest version. There are a few details that indicate this one dates from around 1950. Firstly, it has long front steps. The steps were shortened later as they tended to catch on trackside items. Secondly, the tender coupling is a one-piece casting. This proved troublesome because it would break at that point, also it wasn't a completely flexible coupling. Later GP5's have a small nickle plated coupling plate anchored by screws on each side, much more flexible. The slot that can be seen in the running plate near the valve gear indicates that the valve gear is attched to the chassis via a small plate. The earliest version had the valve gear attached to the body and the running plate area just has a small hole rather than a slot. One more indication is that the driving wheels are held on by a nickle plated plate on the underside of the chassis, it can be seen under the chassis. The earliest version had no plate and the axles were inserted directly into holes in the chassis. There was also a second spur gear between the 2nd and 3rd drivers. This one has only the one spur gear between the 1st and 2nd drivers. Hope that helps.

 

Thanks for that excellent exposition. All in all, I don't think the old girl looks too bad for 63 years old!

[BernardTPM]

Interesting, as all the sources I've seen quote either 1950 or 'early 50s' as the date of introduction. Can you point me in the direction of your source of this information, please? 

 

Thanks

Adrian

The standard BR liveries were set out in the "Railway Pictorial and Locomotive Review" for July 1949. For many years Hamblings used to sell reprints of this. Emblazoned in the front is the British Railways lion over wheel symbol. Very useful publication, giving details of the application of lettering, lining, etc. as well as (printed) colour samples.

[Evanelpus]

Thanks for that excellent exposition. All in all, I don't think the old girl looks too bad for 63 years old!

Agreed, it wasn't a bad model in its day. I have one that has been super-detailed with romford wheels, better handrails and additional piping detail. The farish motor has been removed and a loco-mounted XO4 put in its place. Some slight modifications have been done to the cab windows and cab roof profile. It is surprising how good the loco looks with these few mods, it actually looks quite good next to my new version Hornby Black-5!

P.S. Are you looking for some Farish valve gear for your beastie? I would most likely have spares.

[Guest spet0114]

P.S. Are you looking for some Farish valve gear for your beastie? I would most likely have spares.

 

All three of my beasties - they're all deficient in valve gear to some extent!

 

I'll drop you a PM when I've started the restoration and if you can spare any spares (for a fair price, of course!) then that'd be much appreciated!

 

Cheers!

Adrian

[5050]

Look what I acquired down the clubrooms last night.  They were some left-overs from the estate of one of our late members who passed away several years ago.  His wife has been having a sort-out of odd items she doesn't want to keep any more - so I've got 'em now.

 

The King sadly doesn't have a tender.  It probably ended up behind another of his extensive GWR loco fleet.  It also is short of one steam pipe and I think the chassis has been adapted to fit a 'normal' style motor.  However, the pinion wheel and gears are still there.  I must say that I am very pleasantly surprised at how fine the driving wheels are.  The flanges are quite small and the tyre overall is narrow, at least comparable to EM fine standards I would say.  There is no crosshead, the small end of the con-rod merely runs between the slide bars.  A bit of a fudge I suppose but probably not so noticeable once the loco is moving with an express train.  There is also a moulded number plate 6000 and a representation of the bell and express code lights above the buffer beam.  The nameplates have gone however.  They probably ended up on his Wills King!

 

The Merchant Navy body is 'Belgian Marine' and seems to be a good colour for early BR Blue.  The proportions look good as well.  I am surprised to find the tender is a plastic moulding, I always assumed that it too would be diecast.  Was the King tender plastic as well or diecast?

Edited November 5, 2013 by 5050