Using a ruling pen

[MikeTrice]

Advice on this forum in the past has been extremely useful, so I thought I would try another topic.

 

Many years ago I used a Kern ruling pen with which I had variable results. Now this might be due to a number of factors so I thought I would poll RMWeb members for their experiences.

 

I need to line a Gresely panelled coach with cream/primrose lining. Being a lighter colour it needs to be reasonably opaque.

 

I have seen reference to "dressing" the pen before using it but am unclear exactly what this means, or even if my pen needs it. What are the benefits or otherwise of a hinged blade compared to sprung blade types? How fine should the "prongs" be?

 

Is a matt, satin or gloss finish best as a base? What is a good ink/paint to use? An acrylic/water based paint is attractive as it would allow mistakes to be corrected. Should I thin the paint?

 

I will be honest and say that I have not managed to find much information on the subject on the web. I have ordered the Right Track DVD on painting and lining and eagerly await its arrival. I do not currently have the recent Wild Swan book but would be willing to consider it as an option.

 

Looking forward to any advice.

[JeremyC]

The usual recommendations say to use gloss paint for lining onto a gloss base because gloss paint flows best in the bow pen and a gloss base make cleaning up mistakes easier, having said that a dull base finish seems to work quite well. Providing the base coat is allowed to dry properly cleaning up mistakes won't damage it.

 

I've used a bow pen for lining on a number of occasions without getting the results I wanted. Recently I bought the Ian Rathbone book on painting and lining and honed up my pen as per his recommendations. I was astounded by the difference in the way the paint flowed, now I think it a case of practice makes perfect.

 

Inks are not dense enough for lining, though I have used black with some success, and acrylic dries too quickly.

 

I think honing up the bow pen is covered in the Right Track DVD; it's certainly covered in Ian Rathbone's 'A Modeller's Handbook of Painting and Lining', which I also recommend.

 

Jeremy

[coachmann]

I never had time to write books about my livelyhood, but if you want the advice of one of the 'originals', this is it......

 

DRESSING PENS : Keep the tips of the pen fine using finest emery then lightly rule a short line about 2 inches long (as you would using paint) on the emery paper. This might sound daft but it brings both nibs level. Check them again under a magnifyer and if both nibs have an equal flat area (not too flat mind you!) then your pen is ready for use. I cannot assist in honing your pen unfortunately as I am left handed so your pen will slope a different way if you're right handed.

 

How long should the prongs be......? Buy the smallest pen you can find is the answer as these have finer tips. As an example, the length of my pens overall from tip to end of handle is 4 1/4 inches.

 

PAINT : Use only Humbrol gloss paint. Let a new tin settle for several days before pouring off the oil into a spare tin. Stir whats left into a thick putty then pour back about a quarter of the oil you poured off. Stir and this should be good consistency for lining. As you get further down the tin it might be necessary to pour in a little more oil.

 

BASE : Lining goes on any surface but as matt has a texture then gloss surface is preferable. You can always matt down afterwards.

 

I went to art school, so does this matter? No not really. A friend opf mine is a draughtsman/sureveyor and I do all his lining for him because for some reason he cannot work on 3-dimentional objects. Practice, practice, practice is best advice. I started in 1962 with a brass handbuilt bow-pen compass belonging to my grandad, so Ive had a good few years head start Mike!

 

COLOUR : Humbrol No.69 yellow always seems to be runny and translucent so I always cheat by mixing it 50-50 with Humbrol No.7 cream. This is used on coaching stock from all the Big Four companies. As you know, the LNER used primrose edged with a fine red line and the LMS corridor stock 1923-34, had a red line beside cream. Little point in attempting the red lines in 4mm (1/16" in real life) and so my 50-50 mix looks about right.

 

When it comes to lining out Gresley coaches, I use cellulose as it dries almost as soon as it leaves the bow pen and remains on top of "knife-edge" etched beading. However, enamel can be used successfully so long as you keep the lining fine and the enamel paint thick.

Larry Goddard

[MikeTrice]

Thanks folks for the very useful information.

 

I am also a southpaw Coachmann so perhaps I am in good company.

 

DVD has not arrived yet but I will probably buy the Wild Swan book at Chatham next weekend. I will certainly try using a gloss base.

[DerekEm8]

Whilst not even attempting to match Larry's quality and standards of work I have used acrylic inks in both ruling pens

 

(Kern) and Rotring tubular pens with good results over the years. For some reason I can't get enamels to give fine lines like

 

the experts do.

[DerekEm8]

Off at a slight tangent a tip for those looking for good ruling pens. Look around car boot sales, swap meets and flea markets

 

where there is usually someone selling second hand tools, look out for old draughtsmens drawing sets (usually in battered

 

leather bound cases). I picked up two complete large sets with a number of excellent (ready dressed by the previous

 

owner)ruling pens included. The cost of the two was less than I paid for one Kern pen (which are the best)

[MikeTrice]

I thought I would take the opportunity to report progress in this area especially after people have taken the time to respond previously.

 

My copy of Right Track 3 finally arrived after 26 days. I should hasten to add that I ordered it from one of the magazines and foolishly thought their "allow 28 days delivery" was just to cover themselves should there be a delay. I will not be ordering from them again.

 

With the DVD being delayed I also bought a copy of Ian Rathbone's Wild Swan book.

 

A comment in an earlier reply and by Ian in his book mentioned a source of ruling pens in old compass sets. I then went on a bender buying up a few old compass sets on Ebay VERY cheaply. I reasoned this would give me enough cheap pens to practice on, or ruin, as part of my ongoing education.

 

I read Ian's book and watched the DVD. Of the two I think I prefer the DVD as you get better feedback on how the paint should behave. I also had a eureka moment and noticed from the DVD that I was holding the pen wrong, something that was not so obvious from the book.

 

So stepping back in time this is the Kern bow pen that I have had for more years than I can think of that started the whole thread:

 

Note the shape of the end. I had sort of assumed you hold it at an angle roughly as shown in the photo. Wrong!

 

Ian clearly holds his almost vertical to the surface being painted, which I think would not be comfortable with my Kern.

 

So armed with this knowledge and comments posted previously by Coachmann, I took one of my cheapo ruling pens (actually a Jakar from a set) and set about regrinding it under high magnification. The tip was ground down to a fine point and then carefully had the sharp bit taken off slightly as shown:

 

Having learnt the hard way to practice first BEFORE trying for real on a coach I created a test piece using a piece of brass sheet suitable cleaned and sprayed.

 

As advised I have pored off oil from some Humbrol paint and given it a go. Thickening the paint seems so counter intuative.

 

I am pleased to report that I have managed to get a consistant line at 0.25mm thick which I am quite pleased with.

 

One final comment, I thought a hinged bow pen would be a useful addition and bought a Jakar one from Squires Tools (ordered it Friday morning and it arrived Saturday morning - brilliant). So far I have not had much joy with it, the hinged blade moves slightly so I have not even managed to grind it properly yet.

 

Once again, many thanks.

[davidw]

I never had time to write books about my livelyhood, but if you want the advice of one of the 'originals', this is it......

 

DRESSING PENS : Keep the tips of the pen fine using finest emery then lightly rule a short line about 2 inches long (as you would using paint) on the emery paper. This might sound daft but it brings both nibs level. Check them again under a magnifyer and if both nibs have an equal flat area (not too flat mind you!) then your pen is ready for use. I cannot assist in honing your pen unfortunately as I am left handed so your pen will slope a different way if you're right handed.

 

How long should the prongs be......? Buy the smallest pen you can find is the answer as these have finer tips. As an example, the length of my pens overall from tip to end of handle is 4 1/4 inches.

 

PAINT : Use only Humbrol gloss paint. Let a new tin settle for several days before pouring off the oil into a spare tin. Stir whats left into a thick putty then pour back about a quarter of the oil you poured off. Stir and this should be good consistency for lining. As you get further down the tin it might be necessary to pour in a little more oil.

 

BASE : Lining goes on any surface but as matt has a texture then gloss surface is preferable. You can always matt down afterwards.

 

I went to art school, so does this matter? No not really. A friend opf mine is a draughtsman/sureveyor and I do all his lining for him because for some reason he cannot work on 3-dimentional objects. Practice, practice, practice is best advice. I started in 1962 with a brass handbuilt bow-pen compass belonging to my grandad, so Ive had a good few years head start Mike!

 

COLOUR : Humbrol No.69 yellow always seems to be runny and translucent so I always cheat by mixing it 50-50 with Humbrol No.7 cream. This is used on coaching stock from all the Big Four companies. As you know, the LNER used primrose edged with a fine red line and the LMS corridor stock 1923-34, had a red line beside cream. Little point in attempting the red lines in 4mm (1/16" in real life) and so my 50-50 mix looks about right.

 

When it comes to lining out Gresley coaches, I use cellulose as it dries almost as soon as it leaves the bow pen and remains on top of "knife-edge" etched beading. However, enamel can be used successfully so long as you keep the lining fine and the enamel paint thick.

Larry Goddard

 

Thanks for the insight.

[brossard]

Great post! Some really useful advice. I've tried to use a bow pen on and off but never had any real success. This gives me some hope.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Michael Delamar]

shortly want to purchase a bow pen.

so just reading up on whats best to get and where to get them from.

 

 

question, all the tips seem to be about lining on one colour, ie a gloss coach, but any tips of lining between 2 colours? such as yellow line between blood and custard. id imagine it to be tricky as their may be a lip or inperfections etc.

Edited July 11, 2012 by michael delamar

[coachmann]

Two colour coaches such as BR blood & custard:

 

Spray coach cream. When dry, rule two horizontal lines, one just above the windows and one just below. I do a very fine line in black cellulose but pencil should do.

 

Stick a strip of masking tape to bench and cut strips about 10mm wide. Use these to mask off the area between the two lines. Make a 'U' section mask from cardboard that is a good fit inside the coach (to prevent overspay entering the inside of the coach).

 

Spray on the blood colour and remove masking tape immedietly afterwards.

 

When dry, run the back of a knife blade along the paint joint to remove any lip or cusp.

 

Mask off coach to spray ends and chassis black.

 

Apply thickish black lines above and below windows.

 

When dry, apply thinner yellow line.

 

Add transfers and then varnish.

 

Edited July 11, 2012 by coachmann

[Michael Delamar]

cheers Larry..

 

right,so you spray the whole coach cream, not just where the cream will be, then paint over the cream with the red, its how id imagined it to be done but its given me a few more questions..

 

 

would painting the red onto the cream change the shade of the crimson? although id imagine it to be more of a faff trying to mask the crimson and cream twice and would probably end up with a lip between the 2 colours.

so if we are painting a blood and custard coach this way, what colour primer do we use. the use of a red primer normally recomended for red colours would be out of the question id imagine?

 

also, when it comes to the lining, can the gloss base colour be polished,waxed,t-cut etc or should it not have any treatment prior to lining?

Edited July 11, 2012 by michael delamar

[Buckjumper]

There is, of course, no point adding to the info Larry has given, and I always use gloss on gloss as I tend to get into difficulties otherwise.

 

However, I can fill in one one or two areas which might be useful to those reading Ian Rathbone's book.

 

When my ancient bowpen finally gave up the ghost I decided to buy a new one from Haff, as recommended by Ian. However, once I'd finally managed to make contact (several emails over three weeks in both German and English) I discovered the pen Ian recommends - the 135R - had been discontinued. When I explained what I wanted to use the pen for, Haff instead suggested their Keuffel & Esser knife-spring pen. which I duly purchased. As the blades are very short there's no issues with deflection as can happen with knife-spring pens with linger blades, and I've subsequently found that setting a width and being able to open the blades to clean them is a real boon.

 

 

 

While I was at it I though I'd bite the bullet and replace my spring bow compass too, so went for 256H with carboly tips, and I replaced the point with 1mm brass wire for offset lining.

 

 

The knife spring pen cost 48 euros, the compass 61 euros and shipping was 20 euros - payment was by direct bank transfer, and the pens arrived within a few days of payment. For all the use they have had (and will continue to have over the coming decades) they were a price well worth paying.

 

If I had to have one pen only it would be the compass as the ability to do offset lining outweighs everything else.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Buckjumper

[coachmann]

The cream makes a good base for the carmine red (blood), which is why I spray the whole body side cream. (When spraying a non-corrodor coach in all over carmine, the paint is put on top of red oxide. If I want plain carmine to look darker I spray it on top of maroon).

 

After some 25 years or more of using Simoniz red oxide primer, this became unobtainable and so I standardised on Halford #8 grey etching primer following trials. Grey is fine under cream as you can imagine, although I should add I used to spray cream on top of the Simonix red oxide.

 

I presume you are or have used model paint, which is generally semi-gloss or satin for blood and custard colours. You should have no problems lining on top of this paint.

Edited July 11, 2012 by coachmann

[coachmann]

This is the bow compass that started me off on the road as a full time model painter. Grandad 'coachmann' left it when he passed away in 1962 and pretty soon I was painting display models for a local model shop and lining out full panelled MR coaches for myself. One of the blades fractured around 1970 and the compass was replaced with Kern equipment. It has been in a drawer until being scanned for this thread. From hinge to blade tip measures just over 3 inches...

Edited July 11, 2012 by coachmann

[Chubber]

I am full of admiration for those of you with the ability to use these classic tools, I have tried, but I am as likely to line out a coach with a bow-pen as a cow is to play the ukulele.

 

I can take a [simple] architectural drawing and cobble together a 4mm version, I can grow vegetables well enough to win prizes, paint watercolour pictures that people are willing to pay for and knit words together with photographs sufficiently well to occasionally induce publishers to part with beer tokens for the right to print the result, in short I should count my blessings.....

 

However, I'd love to be able to draw that unwaveringly even hairs-breadth line which turns through 90 degrees to a perfectly regular continuation of the same line. Furthermore it is heartwarming to see that devices completely devoid of micro-processors which would have been quite recognizable when Churchward was building locomotives are still in regular use.

 

Pictures, please!

 

Signed 'Mr Blobby' [aka Doug]

[Buckjumper]

....but I am as likely to line out a coach with a bow-pen as a cow is to play the ukulele.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPYzXPa2Sfc

[Michael Delamar]

I watched all of that, I like the part where he plays the ukulele

[Michael Delamar]

I presume you are or have used model paint, which is generally semi-gloss or satin for blood and custard colours. You should have no problems lining on top of this paint.

 

 

I have with airbrushes, but for now I would like to try and stick with Halfords car colours when possible, these are acrylic however. but then I have weathered over Halfords paints with enamels with no ill effects.

 

Ive used Halfords plastic primer on brass (only tried white so far) seems to stick very well, I think it is an etching primer but also allows flex. havent tried the specifix etching primer however.

Edited July 11, 2012 by michael delamar

[Buckjumper]

I watched all of that

 

Mike old chap, you need a life

[coachmann]

Plastic primer was forced on us when kit manufacturers started to make milky bar boilers etc in the 1980s. Dreadful stuff, it was next to impossible to get the release agent or whatever out of the plastic. Anyway I had to mask off all the brass parts while the boiler was sprayed as no way would the primer key to metal. Once the boiler was dry the whole loco could be given coats of 'normal' primer.

 

As for car paints, these are as good as using cellulose.

Edited July 11, 2012 by coachmann

[queensquare]

Just found this thread and its hugely useful. I have a rake of eight MR clearstorys (mid 1920's Manchester Diner - forerunner of the Pines) nearing completion in 2mm which will need to be lined. I've not done much lining before so the thought is a bit daunting but am going to give it a go. The coaches are all metal so if all goes belly up I can always strip and start again!

 

Jerry

[Michael Delamar]

Plastic primer was forced on us when kit manufacturers started to make milky bar boilers etc in the 1980s. Dreadful stuff, it was next to impossible to get the release agent or whatever out of the plastic. Anyway I had to mask off all the brass parts while the boiler was sprayed as no way would the primer key to metal. Once the boiler was dry the whole loco could be given coats of 'normal' primer.

 

As for car paints, these are as good as using cellulose.

 

dont know about other plastic primers, but Halfords plastic primer ive found worked well and heard other modellers using it on brass like it.

 

I had to strip a model for a colour change, the paint came off as normal but the plastic primer was very stubborn to get off.

 

 

Ive got a bit of a shopping list of materials to get from squires soon so was debating one of these 2 they do.

 

are they worth going for or should I give them a wide berth?

 

Edited July 11, 2012 by michael delamar

[2mm Andy]

Mike,

 

Golden Arrow models sell reconditioned bowpens. I have no experience of them (I inherited a pen and compass set from my grandfather) but he seemed to have a good range of the pens on his exhibition stand at Railex.

 

http://www.goldenarrow.me.uk/tools.htm

 

Andy

[Michael Delamar]

thanks Andy, I would need a bit more recommendation on what size range would be the best for my uses, mainly british railways lining in 4mm. I dont mind paying for the higher end ones, but the higer end ones might be too fine?