Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[Hilux5972]

Will we see new veps in 2018

Please Hornby

After the outcry they got with the last lot, I doubt it.

[Budgie]

Will we see new veps in 2018

Please Hornby

I'd rather see Electrostars.

Please, Hornby.

[adb968008]

I'd rather see Electrostars.Please, Hornby.

Given there's over 400 of them, in a dozen liveries, stretching a large part of the country, they can't be far off.

I wouldn't mind a Gautrain version though if they tooled that cab front, I travelled on it often enough.

[Mike Storey]

I recall Hornby said they had received almost no complaints about the 4 VEP on the key things many of us had disliked, such as the lack of windows in the compartment partition and the visibility of the motor, let alone the depth of the cab end corridor connections. Those were in the days when few people subscribed to their in-house forum. I think they might get a different reaction if they asked the question again, given how much that site seems to have grown since then?

 

Nonetheless I doubt it a commercial proposition to re-tool an expensive model with relatively limited appeal when most people who really wanted one, bought it despite its drawbacks, especially given the firesale prices at the end of the second batch. Whilst Hornby did make a good fist of subsequent early EMU's, they were still behind Bachmann in functionality and detail, but adequate enough.

 

Surely the greatest gap left in Mark 1 EMU's (apart from the 2 HAP and 4 BEP eagerly awaited from Bachmann) is the 4 SUB? And of subsequent types, perhaps the PEP / Class 313 / Class 508 would have a good potential.

[frobisher]

Surely the greatest gap left in Mark 1 EMU's (apart from the 2 HAP and 4 BEP eagerly awaited from Bachmann) is the 4 SUB?

Erm, apart from the fact the 4SUB's are NOT MK1 designs (they're Bullied...) the BIG gap is a little more CIGnificant for areas outside London.

[Titan]

I was going to say class 309, but then again there is not a single Mk1 based AC EMU. Makes the so called gap in DC Mk1 EMU's look almost infinitely small...

[GordonC]

I was going to say class 309, but then again there is not a single Mk1 based AC EMU. Makes the so called gap in DC Mk1 EMU's look almost infinitely small...

 

how many of the AC EMUs would you count as being particularly Mk1 based? 302 and 307? 304/305/308?

 

I wouldn't have thought the 303/311s had much in common with Mk1s

 

309/310/312 were Mk2 based

[frobisher]

309/310/312 were Mk2 based

The 309 was very much MK1 based despite the snazzy front end.

[Titan]

how many of the AC EMUs would you count as being particularly Mk1 based? 302 and 307? 304/305/308?

 

I wouldn't have thought the 303/311s had much in common with Mk1s

 

309/310/312 were Mk2 based

Does not matter if it 1, 10 or 1000, not a single one has been released so the situation is infinitely worse than third rail units no matter how you try and dress it up.

[Darius43]

Erm, apart from the fact the 4SUB's are NOT MK1 designs (they're Bullied...) the BIG gap is a little more CIGnificant for areas outside London.

 

Given that the Kernow-commissioned Class 205 begat the forthcoming 2-HAP from Bachmann and that the 205 is now in the main Bachmann catalogue, there is a fair chance that the imminent Kernow 4-TC will beget a 4-CIG from Bachmann some time in the future.

 

Of course given Bachmann's current production lags this could be the dim and distant future...

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Gwiwer]

It is up to the manufacturers what they feel they can invest in to maximise their return. Hornby may have seen Bachmann's CEP and tried the same market. Had the first batch been anywhere near as good as the blue box product, or indeed even as good as the red box ones usually are, then it might have sold better and might be back in the catalogue next year.

 

Whether Hornby ever again ventures into SR units is an unknown. Bachmann are still doing it and doing it better in my opinion.

 

An Electrostar could be an astute move given how widespread and numerous they have become. But the Desiro is spread far wider (Weymouth to Glasgow / Edinburgh though not north of Weaver Junction in rtr livery) yet seem to be slow sellers based upon discounting.

 

Sure I'd like a few more SR types but we are looking at the £300 mark or more now for an all-new 4-car unit and it seems that might be about the limit of what the general market will bear. Commissions will cost rather more and I'm unconvinced that enough units would sell at £400+ despite the regular high ranking of the 4COR, for example, in wish lists. However for anyone brave enough to venture forth at least we have a unit to scan (as we do with a 4SUB) even if it - like the SUB or a 4EPB - would not necessarily accurately represent many others than the preserved example.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Gwiwer

[adb968008]

It is up to the manufacturers what they feel they can invest in to maximise their return. Hornby may have seen Bachmann's CEP and tried the same market. Had the first batch been anywhere near as good as the blue box product, or indeed even as good as the red box ones usually are, then it might have sold better and might be back in the catalogue next year.

Whether Hornby ever again ventures into SR units is an unknown. Bachmann are still doing it and doing it better in my opinion.

An Electrostar could be an astute move given how widespread and numerous they have become. But the Desiro is spread far wider (Weymouth to Glasgow / Edinburgh though not north of Weaver Junction in rtr livery) yet seem to be slow sellers based upon discounting.

Sure I'd like a few more SR types but we are looking at the £300 mark or more now for an all-new 4-car unit and it seems that might be about the limit of what the general market will bear. Commissions will cost rather more and I'm unconvinced that enough units would sell at £400+ despite the regular high ranking of the 4COR, for example, in wish lists. However for anyone brave enough to venture forth at least we have a unit to scan (as we do with a 4SUB) even if it - like the SUB or a 4EPB - would not necessarily accurately represent many others than the preserved example.

It may be the need to reach a critical mass, as far as variety goes.

In the past we'd have tons of locos, more locos than coaches on our layouts, and of course those coaches can be used with near any loco.

 

But an EMU is a lonely bird, unless it's surrounded by the variety of other lonely birds until it becomes a flock...

 

1 LM Desiro does not a 2014-17 era layout make,join it with a Pendolino, a bit of freight and the ball starts moving, but there's a bit of a ways to go yet... 35 years since introduction and there still isn't any decent class 142, sprinters aren't overly available, and other modern DMUs/ EMUs are quite far between..21st century is a bit slow to adopt in modelling terms.

 

I think Hornby (and Oxford ?) are better placed to serve this market, they are still able to produce a coach for under £40 and a diesel at under £100, super detail maybe restricted, but if it means 4 cars is possible for under £200 then it's worth exploring, close coupling, through wiring, Wire handrails, LED lights can all come in an upgraded version for the next generation, kiss applies (keep it simple and stupid).

Edited August 14, 2017 by adb968008

[Darius43]

kiss applies (keep it simple and stupid).

 

Or design clever perhaps...

 

Darius

[Mike Storey]

Erm, apart from the fact the 4SUB's are NOT MK1 designs (they're Bullied...) the BIG gap is a little more CIGnificant for areas outside London.

 

Ok, I know, maybe we need better shorthand for 1950's to 1970's produced EMU's but that is what I meant. CIG/BIG is another gap, and perhaps the TC will generate that, as someone has already said.

 

I suggested the 4SUB, as the most popular modelling era currently appears to be steam transition, and many (by no means all) BR SR third rail layouts seem to based on London suburbs. I vividly remember SUBs in that period as being the most prevalent units I used to travel around on, so it is notable that they are rarely there on such layouts.

 

On the other hand, I guess you would argue that the dearth of 3rd rail layouts of, say Burgess Hill, Crawley or Preston Park, are because there is no RTR CIG on the market?

[trevor7598]

Only Hornby know how popular their 2 BIL /HAL units were, but if they were looking to do another type

the 4SUB could be a good choice. Only two body mouldings required for certain SUB types, and underframes

and bogies are common to BIL /HAL. The SUB's often worked in conjunction with BIL /HAL in the summer months.

 

Here's one customer !.

[Budgie]

Only Hornby know how popular their 2 BIL /HAL units were, but if they were looking to do another type

the 4SUB could be a good choice. Only two body mouldings required for certain SUB types, and underframes

and bogies are common to BIL /HAL. The SUB's often worked in conjunction with BIL /HAL in the summer months.

 

Here's one customer !.

The Bullied 4EPBs are similar to the later all-steel SUBs, but with a different driving end. If the right examples of both are chosen, the manufacturer will require only three body mouldings for both.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Budgie

[phil gollin]

.

 

The 4-COR, although basically restricted to the Western section, has the advantage of many different liveries from pre-war Southern Railway through to blue with full yellow ends.

 

They have that mystical property "character" and would complement what has already been produced.

 

(But maybe I'm a bit biased.)

 

.

[Gwiwer]

The Bullied 4EPBs are similar to the later all-steel SUBs, but with a different driving end. If the right examples of both are chosen, the manufacturer will require only three body mouldings for both.

But then you would have some of us arguing over 9 or 10-compartment trailers, open or semi-open and with or without vents above the doors

 

.

 

The 4-COR, although basically restricted to the Western section, has the advantage of many different liveries from pre-war Southern Railway through to blue with full yellow ends.

 

They have that mystical property "character" and would complement what has already been produced.

 

(But maybe I'm a bit biased.)

 

.

 

Given that a sizeable batch was built for the Mid Sussex (Arun Valley) line and that many late survivors went on to give sterling service on the Brighton main line in addition to a couple of years along the coast serving all points from Portsmouth to Ore I wouldn't have called them "restricted" to the Western Section.  Though the Pompey Direct is the route they are most often associated with and they also served the Waterloo - Reading line.

 

Character - yes they oozed it and I defy a RTR manufacturer to re-create the rhythmic sway of the gangway which was typical of any unit seen at speed.  They had exactly what the 4VEP (remember this is a VEP topic ) lacked - comfort, charm and character.

[Budgie]

But then you would have some of us arguing over 9 or 10-compartment trailers, open or semi-open and with or without vents above the doors

I don't care about the arguing (I can choose not to follow the thread) -- I just want the models.

[barison82]

Just got to the end of reading this mammoth thread in it's entirety - not in one sitting however - and thought I'd add that I have finally got hold of a B/G one on the well-known auction site, for £160...very happy with it and it fills a gap in my Southern EMU scene for the 1970s; I'll have to add orange curtains (may use real fabric) as I want this unit in early/mid 70s condition. I have the blue one to pair it with and I'll renumber that one as I'd like that to be a final all-blue delivery condition VEP, so I'll also blank out the small silver BR double arrows and replace with the standard larger white ones that these late blue units were delivered with. As with many others here, I have gone through all the various trials & tribulations and have got the units working in the end, and I can live with the flaws, but making improvements here and there. The B/G version is my favourite and they were ubiquitous in this livery. It screams 70s BR! Vital for a Southern layout of this era.

 

I missed the boat on the B/G version when it was finally released in late 2014/early 2015 and I did not think it would become so difficult to get hold of afterwards - there doesn't appear to be many of them around at all nowadays.

 

I think subsequent releases in all the various privatisation liveries would be popular, plus some alternative running numbers in B/G - just as Bachmann have done with their B/G 4-CEP (3 different running numbers are available), but something tells me that this is unlikely.

 

Alex

[Mike Storey]

Just got to the end of reading this mammoth thread in it's entirety - not in one sitting however - and thought I'd add that I have finally got hold of a B/G one on the well-known auction site, for £160...very happy with it and it fills a gap in my Southern EMU scene for the 1970s; I'll have to add orange curtains (may use real fabric) as I want this unit in early/mid 70s condition. I have the blue one to pair it with and I'll renumber that one as I'd like that to be a final all-blue delivery condition VEP, so I'll also blank out the small silver BR double arrows and replace with the standard larger white ones that these late blue units were delivered with. As with many others here, I have gone through all the various trials & tribulations and have got the units working in the end, and I can live with the flaws, but making improvements here and there. The B/G version is my favourite and they were ubiquitous in this livery. It screams 70s BR! Vital for a Southern layout of this era.

 

I missed the boat on the B/G version when it was finally released in late 2014/early 2015 and I did not think it would become so difficult to get hold of afterwards - there doesn't appear to be many of them around at all nowadays.

 

I think subsequent releases in all the various privatisation liveries would be popular, plus some alternative running numbers in B/G - just as Bachmann have done with their B/G 4-CEP (3 different running numbers are available), but something tells me that this is unlikely.

 

Alex

 

No fear - I am not getting rid of mine for anybody. Just remember if modelling mid-70's condition, that most of the orange curtains were in the four foot by then, courtesy of their visits through the Medway to deepest Kent on a Saturday night.

[John M Upton]

Much like the long forgotten Class 466 Networker, I think it very unlikely the VEP will ever appear again.  As for other third rail EMU's, a four car will probably be in excess of £300 now and that is before DCC, sound and all the rest of the technogubbins is thrown in whilst the two car BIL and HAL units seems to have petered out judging by how they wound up being dumped by Hornby at around sixty quid a pop just to get rid of them.

[Mike Storey]

Much like the long forgotten Class 466 Networker, I think it very unlikely the VEP will ever appear again.  As for other third rail EMU's, a four car will probably be in excess of £300 now and that is before DCC, sound and all the rest of the technogubbins is thrown in whilst the two car BIL and HAL units seems to have petered out judging by how they wound up being dumped by Hornby at around sixty quid a pop just to get rid of them.

 

Let's just hope the 2 HAP and 4 BEP, whensoever they appear, elicit enough purchases to allow manufacturers to risk another go at EMU's. A PEP/313/315/5xx based unit would seem to have much potential for wide geographical and livery versions, far more so than the VEP (even though I would personally prefer a 4 SUB). At least the Kernow TC seems to be a winner, but is even more niche.

 

I was surprised at the further releases of the 4 CEP by Bachmann, which turned a very successful model into possibly a commercially disappointing one. I managed three units. Just how many of these can each SR modeller justify, let alone fit in the fiddle yard? Likewise, the 4 VEP, although not a great model despite some improvements in the second batch, but that did not stop me buying three, but that's it.

[SRman]

Like you, John, I had some reservations about buying the Hornby VEPs, with their known compromises and inaccuracies, but I ended up with five, all bought as bargains at different times. I also have a much earlier VEP built using MJT sides and ends on Lima Mk1 coaches, complete with a Lima ringfield motor and "pizza cutter" wheels! 

I wish Hornby had released replacement interiors for the DTC vehicles to get those corridor side windows. I have successfully hacked one unit using older Triang-Hornby composite interiors for the first class sections. I really wanted to avoid the hard work if I could with the other blue and NSE units, but it looks like I have to do it the hard way after all.

I also have five and three-quarter CEP units with a sixth on the way (once again, a bargain). The three-quarter unit gave up a centre coach chassis to convert  2H into a 3H, but it may yet end up as a refurbished unit as a 3 CEP unit.

The liveries vary so I can ring the changes through the years and run plausible mixed combinations (e.g. green syp CEP with blue or blue/grey CEP and green syp, blue or blue/grey MLV, or more uniform all-green or all blue/grey sets).

I haven't tried 'consisting' a VEP and a CEP yet - that could take a bit of adjusting of decoders to match the types.

[barison82]

No fear - I am not getting rid of mine for anybody. Just remember if modelling mid-70's condition, that most of the orange curtains were in the four foot by then, courtesy of their visits through the Medway to deepest Kent on a Saturday night.

 

Hi Mike, thanks for the tip regarding the curtains - I'll bear that in mind! I may need to do 1970-71 if I want to run them alongside 2-BILs, but I can always use creative license