Lathes & M/C tools

[CoViAnna]

This series of videos gives an idea of what an old fashioned machine shop looked and ran like.

Edited January 20, 2017 by CoViAnna

[AndyID]

Photographs of machine shops prior to electric drives show installed drive shafts with pulley take offs for individual machines.  The shafts woud be driven by a steam engine at one end. Apart from the noise, the maintenance of shafting and belt replacement would have been eye-watering.

Those flat belts can last a long time. I'm still using the temporary one I made from a leather waist belt on my South Bend. That was 25 years ago. Mind you, it's not exactly a production environment.

[Guest Isambarduk]

This series of videos gives an idea of what an old fashioned machine shop looked and ran like.

 

Brill!  Thanks for sharing this.  David

[Daddyman]

and here is the price list: http://www.cowells.com/pricelist.htm

 

enjoy!.......

 

Sh*te and onions! I thought lathes were about 300 quid! 

 

Your point about snatching is very clear, Izzy, thanks. 

 

My father has suggested looking into watchmakers' lathes, but I suppose they're not very different from the lathes 4mm modellers are using anyway, are they? No more of a precision instrument? 

[raymw]

You can get lathes for £300.00, but they will not be as good as the Simat you've been offered. Hopefully the guy can let you have the tooling and whatever accessories he has. I'm saying that, assuming you have the interest/patience to learn how to use it, the space to set it up, in a garage or shed/whatever, and it's suitability for the size of material you wish to turn. If you are stuck with working on the dining room table or similar, then that will be different.

[Daddyman]

It will be very much dining room table, yes. Do you think that's a no-no? I suppose the loft is a possibility. 

 

I'm sure the person offering it will have fittings and spares - he built it from the kit version, which to me is impressive. 

 

All I want to do is turn 4mm chimneys, domes and s.box doors. Might a minidrill held in some sort of cradle be better? Like this: 

http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=804&sid=431c5afe0f948e7c9e58fadc34f81466&start=25

 

EDIT: especially if I'm turning those features from plastic, as Gordon Gravett advocated in his MRJ article on his LBSCR mogul. By the way, I asked him at Stevenage last weekend where he got the styrene from - clearly, it would have to be a solid cylinder or chunk the same as or greater than the dimension of the flange of the dome/chimney. He said he got it from his place of work, which is not something I can do! Does anyone have any suggestions? 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Daddyman

[Guest Isambarduk]

"A thing of beauty is a joy forever." (John Keats 1795-1821) and a fine machine tool is a thing of beauty in my book!  So owning a fine machine tool, such as a lathe, is/should be a pleasure and give satisfaction in its own right - I'm all for it - I have fine tools and accessories that I never, or vary rarely, use. 
 
However, there is the other, more pragmatic, side to the discussion based on 'so what do you want to use your lathe for?'.  If the answer is I just want to be able to machine up fitting and parts for 4mm/7mm models then a fine 'thing of beauty' is not required (although it may be desired).  For over forty years now, I have used a Unimat 3 set up as a lathe (also as a milling machine) and for over twenty years I have used another set up as a milling machine for my 7mm modelling. 
 

I know the Unimat is the machine that many model engineers love to hate because it's not a 'thing of beauty' and it's not what they see as a fine machine tool but it is more than up to the job (I do have a Myford ML7 for larger work).  So, if you aspire to be able to make your own parts (and I would greatly encourage you, it's hard to express the feeling of freedom of not having to source something 'near enough') you do not need a 'thing of beauty' nor do you need the precision of a watchmaker's lathe (I have undertaken many repairs on antique clocks with my Unimat, see: www.davidlosmith.co.uk/ClockParts.htm). Don't dismiss the smaller 'hobby lathes' that are available these days and don't put off diving in until you can afford a BMW for a real driving experience when all you need is a Corsa to nip down town or to go out to an exhibition (I'm not a car person so my apologies if I have used a poor analogy).

 

David

[raymw]

If it suits you, consider getting the lathe, and perhaps store it until your modelling circumstances change. In a few years time you may otherwise regret that you missed the opportunity. A mini-drill, in a stand or handheld, and a selection of files (with fitted handles), and some sort of hand/tool rest, will do in the meantime, it's not as if you are doing a daily turn..

[Izzy]

Sh*te and onions! I thought lathes were about 300 quid! 

 

Your point about snatching is very clear, Izzy, thanks. 

 

My father has suggested looking into watchmakers' lathes, but I suppose they're not very different from the lathes 4mm modellers are using anyway, are they? No more of a precision instrument? 

 

 

I thought I would add the links to the Cowells just so you could get an idea of relative costs compared to the what may be being considered for your friends Simat 101. They are certainly precision machines in all respects in that they are sold for watch/clock making, but as with much in life it's all relative to what you need/want to achieve. Given the right approach and knowledge - always a valuable commodity - any machine tool however crude can often be used to produce precision work. Mainly it's the scale/size of the work in relation to the equipment that determines how easy/difficult it is to accomplish. All horses for courses etc.

 

I got a little Sieg CO baby lathe a while ago to use on my portable workbench indoors for around £250, and adding a collet chuck and making a few 'improvements' - a Unimat quck change toolpost along with indexable handwheels (doable with a bigger lathe and mill outdoors in the shed) it's quite a nice and useful little thing. But as my earlier posts will reveal probelms have arisen with motor/control board failure. All retreivable with some effort, but I doubt such issues would arise with a Cowells - no control board for a start I would think because of the speed control via stepped pulleys.

 

Reading more about what you want to try and do, produce the odd boiler fitting as a start, while I would endorse the suggestion to aquire the Simat from your friend if it's in fairly good order with enough basic bits to be able to use it as it stands ( i.e. motor/lathe chuck/drill chuck) at a reasonable price, (even if you store it for future use when circumstances/experience/knowledge allow), a better route might be to obtain one of the small/light/cheap (£80) lathes from Germany that are available on ebay as Bertiedog has done. I am sure he has mentioned them somewhere in this particular thread earlier on and might be able to advise further.

 

The cost may repay you in terms of the experience and learning curve in showing you how easy/difficult making such parts is as part of the overall fun of it all, as well as being able to be used on such as the dining table.

 

Izzy

[Daddyman]

Thanks, chaps. Lots of good sense here. 

 

I do, however, violently disagree with the Keats. 

[bertiedog]

Just as an aside, mention is made of precision lathes, there is no such thing, either a lathe is precise or it is not, decent bearings, accurate parts etc, and a lathe like the Unimat is 100% suitable for clock and watchmaking. It would be going too far to describe the cheap schools Chinese lathe as suitable for such work, but it could manage some.

 

Watch and clock making involves specialist additions to the lathe, gear cutting, accurate repeat holding of parts etc., and the word precision is a misnomer from German descriptions of lathes suitable to take part in the process of making precise clockwork mechanisms. Most lathes qualify, but the Swiss pattern like the Boley etc., are dedicated units rather than ultra precise.

 

Cowells are favoured as they are robust and can work as a conventional lathe as well as dedicated to watch work.

 

In Engineering a precision lathe does mean a more precise lathe, better standards and flexible in the specialist  work holding and processes it can do. Some thing like a Pultra or a Toolroom type lathe would be used to have a set up done to save taking a machine out of production, whilst it is used for development work.

 

It does not mean that, say, a Ward Turret lathe was not a precision machine, they were, and capable of maintaining precision during long production runs.

 

But most model work is one off, it does not involve production, so the lathe can be lighter etc and still do accurate work. The Old Unimat is the best example, it was introduced as a Universal power drill, that fitted a lathe bed and milling machine, and only developed into the lathe later on. But there is no process the Unimat will not do comfortably within it's size range.

 

For instance it can do true thread chasing, any thread, no limits except diameter, but with care and lathe can do this, it is the method not the lathe.

 

Basically it does not need a precision lathe to do precision work, a bad turner is that, bad, not knowingly so, just never shown how a process works.

 

The only type of lathe to steer clear of is the Unimat in plastic, the schools one, and to some extent the Chinese schools one, although it can do some sound work. The others to steer clear of are the simple cast iron hobby lathes of post ww1, the Adept was the only exception, the others are too plain for words and need an expert to get them producing much.

[Daddyman]

Just as an aside, mention is made of precision lathes, there is no such thing, either a lathe is precise or it is not, decent bearings, accurate parts etc, and a lathe like the Unimat is 100% suitable for clock and watchmaking. It would be going too far to describe the cheap schools Chinese lathe as suitable for such work, but it could manage some.

 

Watch and clock making involves specialist additions to the lathe, gear cutting, accurate repeat holding of parts etc., and the word precision is a misnomer from German descriptions of lathes suitable to take part in the process of making precise clockwork mechanisms. Most lathes qualify, but the Swiss pattern like the Boley etc., are dedicated units rather than ultra precise.

 

Cowells are favoured as they are robust and can work as a conventional lathe as well as dedicated to watch work.

 

In Engineering a precision lathe does mean a more precise lathe, better standards and flexible in the specialist  work holding and processes it can do. Some thing like a Pultra or a Toolroom type lathe would be used to have a set up done to save taking a machine out of production, whilst it is used for development work.

 

It does not mean that, say, a Ward Turret lathe was not a precision machine, they were, and capable of maintaining precision during long production runs.

 

But most model work is one off, it does not involve production, so the lathe can be lighter etc and still do accurate work. The Old Unimat is the best example, it was introduced as a Universal power drill, that fitted a lathe bed and milling machine, and only developed into the lathe later on. But there is no process the Unimat will not do comfortably within it's size range.

 

For instance it can do true thread chasing, any thread, no limits except diameter, but with care and lathe can do this, it is the method not the lathe.

 

Basically it does not need a precision lathe to do precision work, a bad turner is that, bad, not knowingly so, just never shown how a process works.

 

The only type of lathe to steer clear of is the Unimat in plastic, the schools one, and to some extent the Chinese schools one, although it can do some sound work. The others to steer clear of are the simple cast iron hobby lathes of post ww1, the Adept was the only exception, the others are too plain for words and need an expert to get them producing much.

All clear, thank you. 

 

I'm still reeling from the price tag on the Cowell's: I barely spend that on a pushbike! 

[polybear]

You can get lathes for £300.00, but they will not be as good as the Simat you've been offered. Hopefully the guy can let you have the tooling and whatever accessories he has. I'm saying that, assuming you have the interest/patience to learn how to use it, the space to set it up, in a garage or shed/whatever, and it's suitability for the size of material you wish to turn. If you are stuck with working on the dining room table or similar, then that will be different.

 

Just as an aside, mention is made of precision lathes, there is no such thing, either a lathe is precise or it is not, decent bearings, accurate parts etc, and a lathe like the Unimat is 100% suitable for clock and watchmaking. It would be going too far to describe the cheap schools Chinese lathe as suitable for such work, but it could manage some.

I believe Mike Sharman used to use his Lathe resting on his lap whilst in bed.....☺

As regards Unimats, I would agree that they are very useful lathes for the modeller; however there were inferior (east German etc) copies (see the Lathes website) and also there are plenty of abused and/or worn examples around, so be careful. Good examples do appear, but tend to command top dollar unless you are lucky. A Presto/Taig lathe is a good alternative

HTH

Brian

Edited January 21, 2017 by polybear

[Guest Isambarduk]

"I do, however, violently disagree with the Keats. "

 

Why so, Daddyman?   David

[jrg1]

I think a Taig/Peatol lathe is a good starting point for model work-they are capable of accurate turning, have a good headstock bearing, and can be sourced relatively cheaply second-hand.  There were a couple of articles in MRJ years ago detailing how to turn chimneys and domes.  One article showed how to make a fixture for compound turning of dome and chimney bases.  I am using this as a basis for a Peatol fixture to quickly turn up brass domes and chimneys.

 

If I decide to move up to 7mm scratchbuilding, a milling machine would be desirable-in fact, if I was producing a lot of 4mm engine frames,  I would use a mill.

[Daddyman]

"I do, however, violently disagree with the Keats. "

 

Why so, Daddyman?   David

Beauty is the retarded younger brother of optimism. Whenever they rear their ugly heads you get at best cant, crassness and sentimental mush, at worst bullying, gentrification, lack of resistance to demagogues.... 

[jonhall]

  There were a couple of articles in MRJ years ago detailing how to turn chimneys and domes.  

 

Please could you share the issue numbers for these articles?

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[ian@stenochs]

Hi,

 

I describe how to turn a chimney and other components in my thread on western thunder, there are some photos which might be useful.

 

Ian

 

http://westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/simple-loco-to-fill-a-space.5028/

[Grasshopper John]

Beauty is the retarded younger brother of optimism. Whenever they rear their ugly heads you get at best cant, crassness and sentimental mush, at worst bullying, gentrification, lack of resistance to demagogues....

 

 

I would press the 'Informative/useful' button, but have no idea what you said

[Enterprisingwestern]

With apologies to Stephen and the other experts on this thread who have forgotten more this morning than I'll ever know about lathes, but, to cut to the quick, all I am ever likely to do with a lathe is to reprofile wheels, turn down and adapt various diameters of bar for various projects and do "general" turning, ie, not precision work in it's finest form, would a baby Sieg or similar cheap/inexpensive lathe be suitable for my needs?

 

Mike.

[ozzyo]

Hello Daddyman,

 

you could try this place for your plastics. https://www.directplastics.co.uk/

 

OzzyO.

[micknich2003]

With apologies to Stephen and the other experts on this thread who have forgotten more this morning than I'll ever know about lathes, but, to cut to the quick, all I am ever likely to do with a lathe is to reprofile wheels, turn down and adapt various diameters of bar for various projects and do "general" turning, ie, not precision work in it's finest form, would a baby Sieg or similar cheap/inexpensive lathe be suitable for my needs?

 

Mike.

Mike, I have had a "CO Baby Lathe" for many years, it does all you require, you wont be disapointed.

[Izzy]

With apologies to Stephen and the other experts on this thread who have forgotten more this morning than I'll ever know about lathes, but, to cut to the quick, all I am ever likely to do with a lathe is to reprofile wheels, turn down and adapt various diameters of bar for various projects and do "general" turning, ie, not precision work in it's finest form, would a baby Sieg or similar cheap/inexpensive lathe be suitable for my needs?

 

Mike.

 

 Completely. But if I may, perhaps budget for adding a collett chuck just in case the supplied 'standard' 3-jaw proves less than satisfactory. I have heard it can be a bit of a lottery, it certainly was with my Sieg CO. A power drill chuck would have more accuracy and better work holding grip.

 

Izzy

[Enterprisingwestern]

Mike, I have had a "CO Baby Lathe" for many years, it does all you require, you wont be disapointed.

 

Whilst it has obviously taken a while to germinate, the seed was sown by your MRJ article, thank you.

 

Mike.

[Daddyman]

Hello Daddyman,

 

you could try this place for your plastics. https://www.directplastics.co.uk/

 

OzzyO.

Brilliant! That looks the biz, thanks. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Daddyman