Bachmann 4-CEP

[dale159]

Hi RFS.

 

I was looking at the spare door provided with the unit and I was thinking if there was a way I could pop the window out of it in order to change the headcode blinds, I've tried brute force but I don't want to use too much in case I break it!

 

Dale

[PrestburyJack]

Gee Dee Models in Nottingham have an old stock BR Green SYP 4 CEP for £150 with 20% off due to their closing down sale, with postage the total cost is £126! No connection other than I purchased an all Green version for the same price.

[Darius43]

Just cancelled my 4BEP pre-order. I placed the order when it was first announced but the price advice today is £382.46, which is somewhat more than I paid for each of the two 4CEPS that I have. Heaven knows what the price will be when it eventually turns up.

 

I may get one in a few years if and when it goes on offer or perhaps modify one of the 4CEPS that I have.

 

But not at this price.

 

Darius

[John Tomlinson]

Just cancelled my 4BEP pre-order. I placed the order when it was first announced but the price advice today is £382.46, which is somewhat more than I paid for each of the two 4CEPS that I have. Heaven knows what the price will be when it eventually turns up.

 

I may get one in a few years if and when it goes on offer or perhaps modify one of the 4CEPS that I have.

 

But not at this price.

 

Darius

 

That's astonishing. I don't know what colour you want, but green ones in mint condition still seem to go on ebay for around £100. It must be worth doing a bit of coach modification to save £282!

 

John.

[Right Away]

Just cancelled my 4BEP pre-order. I placed the order when it was first announced but the price advice today is £382.46, which is somewhat more than I paid for each of the two 4CEPS that I have. Heaven knows what the price will be when it eventually turns up.

I may get one in a few years if and when it goes on offer or perhaps modify one of the 4CEPS that I have.

But not at this price.

Darius

Getting on for a £100 per coach; I don't blame you.

[Gwiwer]

Getting on for £100 a coach can be looked at on more than one way.   

 

The moulds are the same for three of the four coaches unless this is a previously unannounced new tooling.  So there would be minimal R&D costs there.  Based upon the current 4Cep and broadly similar but better-selling Mk1 coach range these could be argued to attract a £45 price tag for the unpowered ones.  Adding a power unit based upon current pricing for what again I assume to be existing designs and tooling probably sets the powered coach around the £140 mark.  So £230 for the three existing coaches.

 

That then leaves £150 or thereabouts for the newly-tooled and unique 4Bep buffet cars which are not quite like anything else and would have required a fair amount of R&D.  That is, I suggest, of an order of magnitude we have not seen before.  Current new-release coaching stock items are typically in the region of £50 - £80 apiece according to complexity and market forces but nowhere near £150.  

 

In private conversations with a manufacturer I discussed figures a couple of years ago for a 4Cor in OO which would, of course, be all new tooling and, while a prototype exists which might be scanned, significant R&D would have been required.  The minimum quantity it might have been viable to produce was 1500 units and these were costed over three livery variants at close to £500 each.  Two years ago.  While this is not comparing oranges and oranges it shows that the underlying costs of production have escalated very significantly and that is is no longer possible to bring a 4-car unit to market for £250 or less.  

 

What I query is the market forces driving the 4Bep shelf price when three coaches are already effectively from written-down well-used tooling.  I would have expected something closer to £295.  And on that basis I am afraid Bachmann has lost two more sales here.

[Darius43]

One assumes Bachmann’s commercial people have done their sums here and have factored in what the market can sustain - especially in these uncertain times!!!

 

Then again perhaps they are assuming they will sell regardless of price so if they up the price then, hey presto, more profit. Simples.

 

I remember in my old company over 20 years ago some financial genius made us change the payment terms printed on our invoices from 30 days to 10 days as apparently this would improve the cash flow. For some reason it didn’t. The company was Carillion and it wouldn’t surprise me if that same genius went on to become a board director.

 

Back on topic, perhaps there will be unsold surplus BEPS being offloaded at a discount from one of the box shifters in time to come.

 

Darius

[Gwiwer]

Current release 4Ceps are being discounted to some extent by numerous retailers.  It would be reasonable to assume that the same might happen with 4Bep units unless they sell like hot cakes.  I notice even the recent Heljan 07 in one particular livery is being heavily discounted already too which suggests something hasn't gone quite according to their marketing plan.

[JSpencer]

In my case, she is needed to finish off the boat train.

 

The current two 4-CEPs plus MLV plus one of the sound chips (there are 2 fitted, one each end) which make up the rest of the train have cost me just less than what this unit will.

 

I did not pre order any, as I don,t like ordering then cancelling things as I know it impacts shop orders to suppliers but - to cover this unit, I will need to cancel 1 of my 2-HAPs (had ordered 2) and replace it with this. So my order will go in but at the expense of one HAP.

I have fond memories of taking the boat train.

[andyman7]

The price for the BEP is somewhat eyewatering but a lot of the problem has been caused by the ravages of overproduction and stock dumping, especially when people like Modelzone were going under circa 2012 and were throwing stock out of the door - at one point they had green Bachmann CEPS at £50. This creates a perecption in peoples' minds that somehow everything beyond that price is profit - whereas on a fully amortised basis, £50 is a fairly hefty loss somewhere along the supply chain. My Blue Grey CEPS cost me under £100 each but I don't think fine scale models of what (to the general public) are fairly niche and boring trains (OK maybe I'll duck here!) can be sustainably produced at that price.

Bachmann Europe's paymasters are in the US and have a worldwide business and they have clearly decided that future production is going to have to make a profit. I suspect that means they will make less and sell less but calculate the overall return on investment will be higher. The losers of course are those who are unable to afford the higher prices but I'm not entirely sure that returning to good old fashioned modelling for these things is a bad step. A good example of this is HST power cars. The Hornby model is great but is over £200 a pair. My son loves HSTs and wants the latest liveries, so I've become quite a dab hand at buying crappy old banana blue and yellow ones from toyfairs at a tenner a time and modifying/repainting. We're currently producing some really nice looking efforts with LED directional lights added at under £30 a time....

[RFS]

In June 2013 purchased two more 4CEPs - two that I didn't really need. Why? Hatton's had them on special offer (and had done for some time) at £69 each. How things have changed! Wished I'd stocked my shelves with a few more that I could now drip-feed into Ebay, as I'd no doubt make a profit that would easily have bettered Building Society savings rates ....

 

Like others I would like a 4-BEP but have stalled on pre-ordering due to the price. One concern I have is that this new unit will be to the same standard as the recent 4-TC from Kernow, which will put the 4-CEPs very much in the shade (literally, I think!). 

[JSpencer]

In June 2013 purchased two more 4CEPs - two that I didn't really need. Why? Hatton's had them on special offer (and had done for some time) at £69 each. How things have changed! Wished I'd stocked my shelves with a few more that I could now drip-feed into Ebay, as I'd no doubt make a profit that would easily have bettered Building Society savings rates ....

 

Like others I would like a 4-BEP but have stalled on pre-ordering due to the price. One concern I have is that this new unit will be to the same standard as the recent 4-TC from Kernow, which will put the 4-CEPs very much in the shade (literally, I think!).

 

I see the next batch of 4-CEPs are the same price tag as the BEP. £150 or just over 50% since the last batch over a year or so ago - that can still be found!

I doubt the BEP will stand out as a major improvement over the CEP.

[letterspider]

Am I crazy in thinking the Buffet car will be available separately...?

[NIK]

Getting on for £100 a coach can be looked at on more than one way.   

 

The moulds are the same for three of the four coaches unless this is a previously unannounced new tooling.  So there would be minimal R&D costs there.  Based upon the current 4Cep and broadly similar but better-selling Mk1 coach range these could be argued to attract a £45 price tag for the unpowered ones.  Adding a power unit based upon current pricing for what again I assume to be existing designs and tooling probably sets the powered coach around the £140 mark.  So £230 for the three existing coaches.

 

That then leaves £150 or thereabouts for the newly-tooled and unique 4Bep buffet cars which are not quite like anything else and would have required a fair amount of R&D.  That is, I suggest, of an order of magnitude we have not seen before.  Current new-release coaching stock items are typically in the region of £50 - £80 apiece according to complexity and market forces but nowhere near £150.  

 

In private conversations with a manufacturer I discussed figures a couple of years ago for a 4Cor in OO which would, of course, be all new tooling and, while a prototype exists which might be scanned, significant R&D would have been required.  The minimum quantity it might have been viable to produce was 1500 units and these were costed over three livery variants at close to £500 each.  Two years ago.  While this is not comparing oranges and oranges it shows that the underlying costs of production have escalated very significantly and that is is no longer possible to bring a 4-car unit to market for £250 or less.  

 

What I query is the market forces driving the 4Bep shelf price when three coaches are already effectively from written-down well-used tooling.  I would have expected something closer to £295.  And on that basis I am afraid Bachmann has lost two more sales here.

 

Hi,

 

I agree with your analysis if the 4-BEP is simply a new coach and no improvements to the other coaches (I have no problems with the features of the 4-CEP).

 

The pricing is I understand more than an unweathered Class 450 which might be the nearest equivalent but the 4-BEPs price was announced after the 450 increase. I'm guessing the 4-BEP will arrive after the current set date for Brexit so compensation for changes in Sterling/Dollar exchange rate have probably been factored in.

 

In general Hornby are possibly heading slightly downmarket for now as indicated with their Mk2f coaches with new underframes and GWR Railcar while Bachmann are going upmarket with their extra features like passengers and DCC lighting decoders built into the circuitry of their lit DCC Mk2f coaches.

 

Hornby may be going more short term as they are reported have an extra loan to pay off. Bachmann UK presumably have to finance the setting up and running of their newish Hong Kong CAD department.

 

Financially and psychologically I find it difficult to contemplate buying even one 4-BEP at the RRP when like others I've spent an average of £105 for my 4-CEPs.

 

However when I started building MTK kits in the 1970's I never imagined that there would ever be a RTR 4-BEP let alone RTR OO live steam locos (as there were just before the credit crunch).

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[RFS]

I doubt the BEP will stand out as a major improvement over the CEP.

 

The problems with the 4-CEP are the lighting - especially in the motor coaches - and the conductive couplings. These were resolved in the 4-TC, with even lighting throughout the unit plus the 4-pole conductive coupling no longer needs the unit being upended in order to couple up. And having pickups on all 32 wheels of the unit completely eliminates pickup issues. 

 

I would hope the same would apply to the 4-BEP but it would mean that having a 4-BEP in a consist with 4-CEPs would really show up the lighting issues of the 4-CEPs if you ran with lights on.

[John Tomlinson]

The problems with the 4-CEP are the lighting - especially in the motor coaches - and the conductive couplings. These were resolved in the 4-TC, with even lighting throughout the unit plus the 4-pole conductive coupling no longer needs the unit being upended in order to couple up. And having pickups on all 32 wheels of the unit completely eliminates pickup issues. 

 

I would hope the same would apply to the 4-BEP but it would mean that having a 4-BEP in a consist with 4-CEPs would really show up the lighting issues of the 4-CEPs if you ran with lights on.

 

Not sure I get this. My 4 CEP has operating lights in all coaches (not that I'm particularly bothered about them), and I thought problems in this regard were due to folk coupling the coaches together in the wrong order?

 

John.

[RFS]

Not sure I get this. My 4 CEP has operating lights in all coaches (not that I'm particularly bothered about them), and I thought problems in this regard were due to folk coupling the coaches together in the wrong order?

 

John.

 

The lighting in the motor coaches is very faint, because instead of multiple LEDs there are only one or two and the light is supposed to be carried down the coach via a reflective strip which works poorly. Hence the motor coaches are dim compared to the trailers which have separate LEDs for every compartment or bay. Never understood why Bachmann did it this way. 

 

The head codes are operated by F0 and the interior lighting by F1. If you couple a trailer coach the wrong way round its lights are then operated by F0 instead of F1.

 

The conductive coupling between coaches is not entirely reliable and often results in the lights flickering. I've stopped using the interior lights as a result.

 

All of these issues are resolved in the 4-TC which is why I hope they will be carried forward into the 4-BEP.

[JSpencer]

The problems with the 4-CEP are the lighting - especially in the motor coaches - and the conductive couplings. These were resolved in the 4-TC, with even lighting throughout the unit plus the 4-pole conductive coupling no longer needs the unit being upended in order to couple up. And having pickups on all 32 wheels of the unit completely eliminates pickup issues. 

 

I would hope the same would apply to the 4-BEP but it would mean that having a 4-BEP in a consist with 4-CEPs would really show up the lighting issues of the 4-CEPs if you ran with lights on.

 

Ah ok, so it is only lighting differences. I can live with that.

[Southernman46]

So which existing RTR catering vehicle matches the BEP coach closest ??  (Too busy peeling carrots to do the research myself  )

[KDG]

Bachmann RU?

[Legend]

Am I crazy in thinking the Buffet car will be available separately...?

Yep. Aren’t these units cross wired ? Anyway why would Bachmann sell you one coach when they can make much more money selling you 4

[steve1023]

Sadly, another sale lost. I simply cannot justify that cost. Shame.

[Phatbob]

Due to endless hassles with trying to use the conductive couplings in the Bachmann 4CEPs, I've long since given up trying to use them and switched to ROCO and Hornby type close couplings within the units on Star Lane.
Nobody any any exhibition has ever commented that only the lights in the motor coaches work!
The lights in the trailers are so much brighter than the ones in the motor coaches anyway, frankly, I think they look more realistic without the lights.
Pointless gimmick IMHO.
I shall see about blagging a 4BEP or not once I've seen them in the flesh, so to speak.
 

[Right Away]

Is interior coach lighting so important and does its inclusion impact significantly on the price of a 4 car unit?

 

To impart realism it is preferable for all passenger stock in all trains in a running session to be so equipped with the exception of ECS otherwise the effect can seem a little offside.

 

My only illuminated coaches are a rake of Pullmans which came fitted with table lamps but in all honesty the coaches look just as good with their lights off.

 

Personally, and that's no slant on those who have illuminated stock - some excellent effects can be achieved, with typical viewing distances and angles this is an area with which I cannot deem advantageous.

[Gwiwer]

Bachmann have clearly made commercial decisions to add value, using marketing-speak, to their models where possible. Their locos have usually included a driver (and in a representation of uniform matching the loco livery) for some time. It is a shame they haven’t done the same for the multiple units. While it can be argued that when a unit reverses the driver will then be at the wrong end the same is true of any loco we fit crew to and of alpha-numeric headcodes. That is a limitation of modelling.

 

If I am going to pay a premium price for my models I would far rather they had some passengers in than lighting. Only Pullman table lamps are really essential illumination internally.

 

The highly-praised 4TC units have even lighting at the cost of additional pick-ups which must add to the price. These also add to the drag and the noise in operation. They are however very good models indeed.

 

When faced with a need to contain costs and shelf price the nice-to-haves can sometimes be dropped from the specification. While an unlit 4Bep would look wrong running with an illuminated 4Cep the uneven lighting in these units also looks wrong and they can be modified to run unlit. An unlit 4Bep might be £50 - £75 cheaper. Or with passengerd pre-fitted, which look more realistic than lighting up an empty interior, perhaps the same price as we are being asked to pay today. With an option for unlit and without passengers for those with more limited funds