RMweb Gold big jim Posted November 13, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 13, 2010 Hi all Quick question on the tape - is the glue conductive - i.e. if it breaks can I overlap another layer to maintain conductivity? Thanks when i've had failures of my copper tape dcc bus i simply stick a short section of tape over the top of the affected area which works fine, i do however sometimes put a dab of solder on both ends too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I would never advocate the use of copper tape for a power bus, which is one reason why we don't stock it. I have seen the effects of copper tape having caused short circuits through user error - not a pretty sight! I would always suggest using underboard wire for a power bus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Just an additon. I see MicroMark have "suitcase connectors" that allow two different sizes of wire to be used on the assumption that the droppers are smaller than the powerbus lines. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted November 14, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 14, 2010 I would never advocate the use of copper tape for a power bus, which is one reason why we don't stock it. I have seen the effects of copper tape having caused short circuits through user error - not a pretty sight! I would always suggest using underboard wire for a power bus. There's no substitute for the real thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sse Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Cheers all I'm not using it for the main bus - I'm still using 2.5mm2 cooker cable to reach to the far ends of the layout. I'm using the copper tape as "sub-bus"es at about 12 locations around the layout of about 50cm length each drawn off the main bus, with the droppers as short as possible soldered to the tape. I'm not entirely certain where all of my tracks are going to go as yet so I need a fairly flexible solution. When I complete a section I'll cut the copper tape to be as short as possible. SSE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Its far easier to see colour coded wires in the dark depths of the under board zone. Also hot solder dripping down when working upside down is never very nice. The practical side of things have put me off having tried it and the electrical aspects discussed earlier in this thread conforms my technical thoughts about it. Stick with real wires, stay away from the tape. The word tape alone should induce thoughts of inadequacy ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sse Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Its far easier to see colour coded wires in the dark depths of the under board zone. Also hot solder dripping down when working upside down is never very nice. The practical side of things have put me off having tried it and the electrical aspects discussed earlier in this thread conforms my technical thoughts about it. Stick with real wires, stay away from the tape. The word tape alone should induce thoughts of inadequacy ! Cheers, pretty much all my wiring is (top) surface mounted anyway. I just see the copper tape as a copper wire that's flat...... Anyway, will have a crack at it and report back. SSE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 When you get into wiring up a complex DCC set up with lots of points, block detection, signalling etc I certainly would not like to have it on the top of my boards, no room for the track Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Cheers all I'm not using it for the main bus - I'm still using 2.5mm2 cooker cable to reach to the far ends of the layout. SSE Do you mean standard 2.5mm2 ring main T&E cable , or cable suitable for a spur to a cooker which is usually 4 or 6mm2 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sse Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Do you mean standard 2.5mm2 ring main T&E cable , or cable suitable for a spur to a cooker which is usually 4 or 6mm2 ? Sorry my mistake, I'm using what sections I have left of some 4mm2 cable and then the rest will be 2.5mm2. In case of any doubt for people browsing I'm not suggesting 2.5mm2 cable is suitable for a cooker, we're talking about little model trains here. SSE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Completely off the topic... You can use the superscript button to get 2 instead of 2 when composing or answering a post.. It's to the right of the buttons for Bold, italics, underline etc. It might help with 2.5mm2 and Prodigy Advanced2 etc. I'm not trying to be clever, I just thought it might be useful for those who hadn't spotted it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Hi All, I see that ZTC's copper tape is rated at 10 amps, can - or used to be able to - be used outdoors and the adhesive gets stronger with age (ie it's used on communications masts et al). Does anyone know of any equivalent tapes from other manufacturers? ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibushe Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I have used copper tape for about 8 years now. bought it from ZTC. Reading the comments I would add concerning its power carrying capacity, Each Bus is 45 Ft long, so thats 90Ft in total. ( open ended ) Plus a couple of spurs, It all works fine. Adhesive tape does need some care in laying it can easily curl up, Not a good idea to try and overlap a joint, best to solder a bridging wire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I have used copper tape for about 8 years now. bought it from ZTC. Reading the comments I would add concerning its power carrying capacity, Each Bus is 45 Ft long, so thats 90Ft in total. ( open ended ) Plus a couple of spurs, It all works fine. Adhesive tape does need some care in laying it can easily curl up, Not a good idea to try and overlap a joint, best to solder a bridging wire. Hi, Thanks for those comments. My understanding is that when joining two pieces it's always best to solder the overlap by folding one side under and then adding/flooding solder to the joint and making good. ATVB CME. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Having a roll of mains ring cable left over after wiring the shed, I stripped this and use it for my DCC bus. Running lengths of about 6' between terminal blocks and then a spur off to 12 way PCB mounted terminal blocks(http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=2008011) Saves working underneath with a soldering iron and also much easier to make alterations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Having a roll of mains ring cable left over after wiring the shed, I stripped this and use it for my DCC bus. Running lengths of about 6' between terminal blocks and then a spur off to 12 way PCB mounted terminal blocks(http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=2008011) Saves working underneath with a soldering iron and also much easier to make alterations. Hi, Thanks for the Post/tips. I have some T&E, yet I am not keen to drill lots of holes in the outside boards (to take the droppers). http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/down-ampney-7mm-fs.235/page-8 We did make provisions for wiring some of the underside of the outdoor boards, yet as the layout is in a garden with a fall/slope (in three directions) some boards will be impossible to wire underneath. Also outdoors, on the garden section, everything needs to be weatherproof, so lots of joints/connector blocks (unless perhaps used with Copper Ease) will not help the cause. So my thoughts are;- use the 10amp copper tape (mounted atop the basebaords), with a dropper for each length of track (thus over-coming the resistance apparent in NS rail and worse, the NS 'fishplates'), test and run for a while and then ballast the track using 'chick-grit' so as to hide the copper tape. That way I should have little or no voltage drop and no loss of DCC signal either. I may or may not use the copper tape on the indoor sections and may trial the use of Scotch-Lock connectors (one guys tells me that he has used such outdoors with copper ease - yet I think that is a risk/strategy too far for me!). ATVB CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arff999 Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Hi Just my little bit I have used copper tape on my layout (Lincoln Central) It works fine no problems with loss of voltage or dcc signal I have 3 runs of parallel tape one my boards each being 48 foot long x 6.all are open ended not a good idea to have a complete signal loop as the DCC signals don't like it. don't forget the voltage is also a carrier for the DCC signal and a small drop in voltage will be ok. I have a DCC current meter fitted to my system and on a normal exhibition day its so far not been above 2.2 amps total load, this is with a lot of locos on track plus I'm using 7 cab controllers also I have 48 accessory decoders connected JOHN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Hi Just my little bit I have used copper tape on my layout (Lincoln Central) It works fine no problems with loss of voltage or dcc signal I have 3 runs of parallel tape one my boards each being 48 foot long x 6.all are open ended not a good idea to have a complete signal loop as the DCC signals don't like it. don't forget the voltage is also a carrier for the DCC signal and a small drop in voltage will be ok. I have a DCC current meter fitted to my system and on a normal exhibition day its so far not been above 2.2 amps total load, this is with a lot of locos on track plus I'm using 7 cab controllers also I have 48 accessory decoders connected JOHN Hi John, Many thanks - that all sounds like it works really well. Our layout is effectively a 'U' shape (out and back yet onto the two sides of the garage) and even if we ever get around to having some temp/portable boards at t'other end (to turn such in to a 'tail chaser), I plan on having four sections controlled by circuit breakers and/or Boosters..... ......Can I ask what exactly you mean by 'open ended' and 'a complete signal loop'? Many thanks. Kind regards, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibushe Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Open Ended. In my case its a twin bus, But not a full circle, think of it has U shaped. Reason. Access is via a Lift Flap, saves crawling on hands & Knees. The Feed to the flap rails is via a Flexible connection connected to a pair of Bus tapesunder the flap to feed the rails. In addition there are two filters soldered to the open ends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Open Ended. In my case its a twin bus, But not a full circle, think of it has U shaped. Reason. Access is via a Lift Flap, saves crawling on hands & Knees. The Feed to the flap rails is via a Flexible connection connected to a pair of Bus tapesunder the flap to feed the rails. In addition there are two filters soldered to the open ends. Hi, May I ask what the 'Filters' are? Kind regards, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arff999 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Hi CME Just as the poster above says the signal bus needs to be open ended so as not to get the command signals as we say chasing there tails this leads to the signal being distorted and in some cases loss of control also I think the filters he talks about are what a would call a buffer I got mine from digitrains I think there dcc supplies versions they connect across the dcc bus Hope this helps JOHN Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 DCC filters are described on this page http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.htm a little way down the page. They consist of a resistor and a small capacitor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Thanks guys all is clear now. I know them as 'buffers' (amongst other names) yet perhaps 'filter' is even more accurate. Thanks Smokebox for that link, as that Blog is nicely laid out with lots of useful info (certain aspects that I have not seen published eleswhere). Kind regards, CME Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokebox Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Thanks guys all is clear now. I know them as 'buffers' (amongst other names) yet perhaps 'filter' is even more accurate. Thanks Smokebox for that link, as that Blog is nicely laid out with lots of useful info (certain aspects that I have not seen published eleswhere). Kind regards, CME They are also referred to, wrongly, as "terminators" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Hi CME Just as the poster above says the signal bus needs to be open ended so as not to get the command signals as we say chasing there tails this leads to the signal being distorted and in some cases loss of control Unfortunately this myth persists. For the DCC signal to cause any sort of circulating effects, you'd need a bus of many km in length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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