Locos at Hessle Haven - LNER D20's

[mikemeg]

As a change from building signals, though that activity will continue, I am setting out to build a couple of LNER D20's, as they would have appeared in mid 1950. So, I have located a photo of one suitable subject 62355 which was allocated to Bridlington at this time. This D20 had a modified tender, rebuilt by the LNER with a J39 type 3500 gallon tender tank mounted on the original NER tender underframe. The other model will represent a D20 with its original NER 3940 gallon tender, though again as it appeared in mid 1950.

 

In looking at the build of these models, they appear reasonably straightforward but there are one or two areas where some inventiveness might be necessary.

 

One of the modifications which the LNER made and which BR continued was the fitting of new smokebox doors to these locomotives. This newer smokebox door was much more rounded and of a larger diameter than the original NER smokebox doors. So as these are probably the most difficult things to source, I thought I would start be making up some suitable smokebox doors.

 

In the David Bradwell conversion kit for the Thompson B1, there are two smokebox doors, the one for locos 61010 - 61339 with the hinge straps 2' 0" apart and the other for locos 61350 onwards with the hinge straps 1' 3" apart. Checking this second smokebox door, which I won't use on the conversions, against the photos, it appears to be of the correct diameter and curvature but the hinge straps are totally wrong for a D20.

 

So I filed off the hinge straps and the hinge fixings from the brass casting and then soldered back a 9 mm length of .3 mm wire to which will be attached the new hinge straps. Amazingly, this worked out quite well so I am now doing the second in the same way. The new hinge straps will be fabricated from .010" plasticard and glued to the door.

 

So an odd place to start but once these are both done then I can revert to a more conventional build sequence.

 

Incidentally, the photo of the D20 and C12 was taken in April 1950 outside the straight shed in Hull Dairycoates locoshed. This shed was the principal repair location for locos based in Hull and the surrounding districts as it had wheel drop facilities. Look how smart that D20 looks in its black livery, though oddly it appears to be in plain, unlined black. It wouldn't look like that for very long.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[micklner]

Look forward to this one.

Have you by any chance any picture(s) of the cab area and the tender front please ? I am upgrading my old DJH kit at the mo and will be adding a Alexander tender. I have a couple of pics but anything else would be great .

 

Mick

[James]

I'm really going to enjoy this thread

[Tim Lewis]

Oh good...one of my favourite loco classes. Will look forward to seeing these evolve. One day, I will get round to that Chivers kit I've had for umpteen years .

[mikemeg]

Look forward to this one.

Have you by any chance any picture(s) of the cab area and the tender front please ? I am upgrading my old DJH kit at the mo and will be adding a Alexander tender. I have a couple of pics but anything else would be great .

 

Mick

 

No I don't have any pictures of these areas, at the moment, though I do have a picture of the cab and firebox backhead for an NER T3 (LNER Q7). I'll ask some of my mates who have extensive collections of photographs and drawings, for any pictures and/or drawings of the cab and tender front for the D20 and see what they can come up with.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Guest Max Stafford]

Oh good...one of my favourite loco classes. Will look forward to seeing these evolve. One day, I will get round to that Chivers kit I've had for umpteen years .

 

 

Or you could always sell it to this man Tim...!

 

Dave.

[the penguin of doom]

Another good thread Mike.

 

I'll be looking in periodically.

 

Keep the references to the B1's coming too......

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Tim Lewis]

Or you could always sell it to this man Tim...!

 

Dave.

 

Not much chance of that - but nice try Maybe the rejuvenated 579 label will re-introduce it?

[Bernard Lamb]

I like the look of this.

It might inspire me to dig out an ancient DJH kit.

Never did get it running, due to the terrible loco frames and the even worse tender castings, that bore no relationship to the unique tender used with the D20s. Just to add a note of caution. The works drawings are not correct, as they were made to replace the originals that were lost in a fire and were drawn to current practice, rather than from an existing loco. DJH failed to understand this point.

Starting with the face seems a good idea to me.

I look forward to seeing how you deal with the loco frames.I wonder if Gibson do an etch of the right wheelbase that can be modified to suit ?

Bernard

[micklner]

Never did get it running, due to the terrible loco frames and the even worse tender castings, that bore no relationship to the unique tender used with the D20s. ?

Bernard

 

 

What is the difference on the tender ????? as I am building a DJH at the mo with a replacement Alexander 3940 gall Tender. I have Yeadon and nothing obvious or mentioned in the book.

 

cheers

 

Mick

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

 

What is the difference on the tender ????? as I am building a DJH at the mo with a replacement Alexander 3940 gall Tender. I have Yeadon and nothing obvious or mentioned in the book.

 

cheers

 

Mick

NER tenders up to 1915 had slots shaped like a D on it's side. Later tenders had oval shots. Best examples of this point are the J27s as they feature both types. The DJH kit has the oval slots when it should have the D type. As the outer frames and axle boxes are cast in one piece with the sides it makes it rather dificult to rectify.

Bernard

[James]

I look forward to seeing how you deal with the loco frames.I wonder if Gibson do an etch of the right wheelbase that can be modified to suit ?

 

Gibson do have a set of frames for a D20; I think they're to suit the DJH kit, so don't know if they're compromised or otherwise as a result. I have a pair of frames at home waiting to be used!

[Guest Max Stafford]

Be careful of the spacers though, with the thick brass of the plates, the spacers for OO push the width out further than OO axles can cope with.

Won't be a problem for EM though!

 

Dave.

[James]

Be careful of the spacers though, with the thick brass of the plates, the spacers for OO push the width out further than OO axles can cope with.

Won't be a problem for EM though!

 

I've not had that problem with the Gibson frames I've used with their 00 spacers.

 

 

These have all been with Gibson wheels; the large boss on the back of Romford wheels may cause a problem but I haven't tried them.

[mikemeg]

NER tenders up to 1915 had slots shaped like a D on it's side. Later tenders had oval shots. Best examples of this point are the J27s as they feature both types. The DJH kit has the oval slots when it should have the D type. As the outer frames and axle boxes are cast in one piece with the sides it makes it rather dificult to rectify.

Bernard

 

Coincident with this change, the spring hangars also changed slightly. This might be the reason that the cut outs in the tender frames changed shape.

 

On these locos I shall probably scratch build the tenders, certainly the LNER 3500 gallon group standard on the NER underframe will have to be scratch built; I might be able to source a kit for the NER 3940 gallon tender.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[micklner]

NER tenders up to 1915 had slots shaped like a D on it's side. Later tenders had oval shots. Best examples of this point are the J27s as they feature both types. The DJH kit has the oval slots when it should have the D type. As the outer frames and axle boxes are cast in one piece with the sides it makes it rather dificult to rectify.

Bernard

 

Just checked the Alexander 3940 Tender I will be using has D slots (result!!) . While I am here do you know if they had a any kind of a dome for the water pickup. So far I have seen references saying no dome at all, a square one and one with a curve top . The Alexander has none included.

Lastly one reference says 3' 9" wheels others 4' 00" for NER Tenders

 

thanks ( and to Mike for his help on D20's)

 

Mick

[Bernard Lamb]

While I am here do you know if they had a any kind of a dome for the water pickup. So far I have seen references saying no dome at all, a square one and one with a curve top . The Alexander has none included.

Lastly one reference says 3' 9" wheels others 4' 00" for NER Tenders

 

 

 

Mick

The Green Book states 4' 0" tenders wheels.

That was the easy bit. On tenders I extract the following.

Some tenders were 3940g capacity whilst others held 3537g. The differnce being the type of well tank used. At some stage a 162g tank was changed for a 565g version. In the 1952 tender census only one of the smaller capacity type was recorded. There was an instruction issued to remove the water scoops in 1937 but some had scoops until 1945. The ten rebuilt tenders did not have scoops. My feeling is that when the scoops were removed the dome would also have been removed. That fits in with your remark about no dome on the Alexander version. He usually gets it right.

Bernrad

[micklner]

The Green Book states 4' 0" tenders wheels.

That was the easy bit. On tenders I extract the following.

Some tenders were 3940g capacity whilst others held 3537g. The differnce being the type of well tank used. At some stage a 162g tank was changed for a 565g version. In the 1952 tender census only one of the smaller capacity type was recorded. There was an instruction issued to remove the water scoops in 1937 but some had scoops until 1945. The ten rebuilt tenders did not have scoops. My feeling is that when the scoops were removed the dome would also have been removed. That fits in with your remark about no dome on the Alexander version. He usually gets it right.

Bernrad

 

Many thanks for reply.

Re the Alexander Tender I am not sure if he is right, it appears not to be one thing or the other ?. He supplies Tender vents which would have gone with pick up gear and only one brake handle. I presume there would have been two brake handles with pick up gear. I am doing a pre removal D20 do I therefore make a dome ? if yes what shape ? I agree re 4' 00" wheels especially as I have them already !

 

cheers

 

Mick

[ArthurK]

Watch out for the water domes. Yes they were fitted to D20 Tenders as were the prominent vents. All the kits that I have seen provide a round dome. However the water dome contemporary with the D20 was square. (Chivers' has both round and square). There is a well known photo of a B14 4-6-0 on its side at Darlington clearly showing the square water dome. I have no knowledge of when the change to a round shape was made. If anyone out there knows please tell me! The GA of the 3940 Gallon tender that I have has a square dome which has been scribbled out and a round one drawn on top. Both round and square had the same dimensions. The is a hand written note relating to the change but I cannot decipher it. There is a further note pointing to the pickup scoop stating "Not wanted for Q5" so that was obviously added in LNER days.

 

Further to the comment above - yes there were two Standards on the tender when pickup was fitted. That on the left (looking forward) was the one for the scoop.

Does any of the Alexander models need a scoop? The Q6 didn't. So there shouldn't be a dome at all!

 

The oval slots first appeared on tenders of 4125 Gallons. They were used on late builds of other tenders (e.g. the 3038 gallon tenders on the last build of the J27)

 

Arthur

[micklner]

Arthur

Thanks for input. When you say round do you mean looking from the top or from the side? The DJH tender has a round from above version. A drawing I have shows it as square from above and half round side on. I have a copy of the B14 picture a very good one .

Re Alexander I agree re his range I wonder why he has the vents but nothing else in the kit. I have sent him a email re this and await a reply.

 

cheers

 

Mick

[Earlswood Nob]

Good morning all

The old GEM tender as supplied with the D21 has the horizontal D cutouts in its frames. I don't know if it's still available.

Earlswood Nob

[ArthurK]

Arthur

Thanks for input. When you say round do you mean looking from the top or from the side? The DJH tender has a round from above version. A drawing I have shows it as square from above and half round side on. I have a copy of the B14 picture a very good one .

Re Alexander I agree re his range I wonder why he has the vents but nothing else in the kit. I have sent him a email re this and await a reply.

 

cheers

 

Mick

From above all the later NER water domes were round. From the side they were rectangular,they did not have a radiused top. The older domes were square both in plan and in profile. Both round and square had similar dimensions (dimensions for 4mm), diameter (side of square) 10.17mm, height 6.33mm. The was a 2" angle around the base (0.67mm). The square domes were rivetted as can be clearly seen in the photo referred too. So far I haven't located this photo.

 

I still have a GEM tender somewhere but the D21 that went with it wore out long ago. That Chassis was a bit crude to say the least.

 

Arthur

[Rambler]

If you can get to the NRM there are a number of original NER drawings of the Class R/D20 :

 

In the OPC series:

i) 4/GW/10768/E is a Pipe and Rod drawing that seems to be as good as a GA and has a cab elevation (i.e. the view from the tender)

 

In the Darlington Loco Drawings (on page 11 of the catalogue) there are at least ten relating to Class R, including:

ii) Drg 4563 which shows the (original) frame arrangement

iii) Drg 4578 which shows the tender frames with 4' wheels.

iv) Drg 4583 which shows the water scoop, with square "dome"

The last one is most useful as there doesn't appear to be a GA for the tender but this one seems to have most of the information (although I haven't yet built from it - thats when you find out what's missing!).

 

There is also a GA (Drg 4872, that I haven't yet looked at) and there is probably a drawing for the "Raven" frames.

 

Hope this helps.

[Bernard Lamb]

If you can get to the NRM there are a number of original NER drawings of the Class R/D20 :

 

 

 

But which of these drawings, if any, are originals?

It is advizable to check any thing shown on the drawing against photos if you want to get it right. Worth doing in all situations but with the NER at this period it becomes essential.

Bernard

[ArthurK]

If you can get to the NRM there are a number of original NER drawings of the Class R/D20 :

 

In the OPC series:

i) 4/GW/10768/E is a Pipe and Rod drawing that seems to be as good as a GA and has a cab elevation (i.e. the view from the tender)

 

 

There is also a GA (Drg 4872, that I haven't yet looked at) and there is probably a drawing for the "Raven" frames.

Hope this helps.

 

Drawing 4872 is a fully dimensioned GA of the D20. I have a copy of this. I believe it was 4/GW10802/E in the OPC lists. It has the Worsdell frames and is signed by the great man himself. I used this drawing for the masters of the Chivers' D20 and also for other bits for my own purposes.

 

The tender drawing that I used was 6566-D (4/GW/10796/E) labelled for use on Q5/Q6. There is a amendment deleting "Gateshead" dated Dec 4/06. I wonder if was also the date at which the shape of dome was changed. the changes themselves also have what appears to be a date but I cannot decipher this. It anyone has a claearer copy perpaps this would solve the mistery. As I remarked earlier it notes that the scoop is not required for Q5 or Q6.