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Andy Siddalls Easy-Build Workbench





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#26 two tone green

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 20:23

Thanks Dave.

I've sent an e mail to Shawn and awaiting reply. It woud be a good idea to have a fly wheel to improve the running so hoefuly there will be one on its way soon.

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#27 boxbrownie

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 23:51

Thanks Dave.

I've sent an e mail to Shawn and awaiting reply. It woud be a good idea to have a fly wheel to improve the running so hoefuly there will be one on its way soon.

I wouldn't worry too much, especially if your using DCC, often the flywheel just hinders control with DCC, great with DC of course.

I tried a flywheel on my Canon motor with my Class 40 JLTRT bogie and it runs better without......

#28 two tone green

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:09

Interesting Dave.

The lack of fly wheel wont stop me building it as it is something that can be added later, but I would like to see the effect it has.

I'm stuck between the thinking that having it would improve slow running as it would carry the train forward a tad with the increase in mass at the motor but also the other side of the coin, at stop it takes a higher power setting to overcome the increase of mass and get things moving.

I'll experiment when it arrives but its interesting about your comments. Thanks :)

#29 Andy Siddall

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 11:47

Hi All,

Just back from the Christmas visit to Parents and I see that I have missed quite a bit of discussion here.

Yes the Flywheels did come with the kit as you now know.... Although personally I shall not be fitting them as I will be chipping this and as stated above I have found that a flywheel and DCC are not really necessary.
Even when using DC control a chip will give a nice snmooth acceleration and Deceleration without a flywheel.

Sadly I have not got a long enough period of time in the next week to progress with this kit so not a lot may happen for the next few days.

Cheers

Andy

#30 two tone green

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 14:28

Hi Andy, welcome back.

I'll be using the Lok Sound decoders in mine, XL or standard V3.5 not sure yet. I suspect the standard one will do as the current draw should be within its capabilities. Used one in my Bachmann Brassworks 08 and it seems to be ok.

Will get the flywheel as I said before and see whats happens. Using a chain drive and the slack in the drive system to me seems to be the biggest problem and the 'notched' effect of the sprocket as it turns and takes up the slack. Not used this drive system before and want to see just what it does. I know lots of others use it and seem to say its ok but I do like to see for myself.

I'm finishing off a brake van first as I don't want to get into the bad habits again of having tens of things on the go all at once and not finishing things. Hopefully the flywheel and CD with instructions will arrive i the new year and I can make a proper start on it.

Thanks again Andy, have a great time over the next few days.

#31 boxbrownie

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 19:33

Will get the flywheel as I said before and see whats happens. Using a chain drive and the slack in the drive system to me seems to be the biggest problem and the 'notched' effect of the sprocket as it turns and takes up the slack. Not used this drive system before and want to see just what it does. I know lots of others use it and seem to say its ok but I do like to see for myself.

I was a little concerned about the same issue before using this type of drive, but upon investigation I have found the delrin link drive is engineered extremely well and the is no percivable "notching" (and nor should there be if designed and manufactured correctly) as drive is transferred to other axles, the biggest issue I have found is taking up the slack so the chain does not flap around on the anti-thrust side, although this is more a nice to have and more elegent rather than a service requirement.

I too will be using a standard Loksound chip and not the XL on my 108, I measured the exact same Canon motor in the JLTRT bogies and it drew just under half an amp under light load with a stall current of about 1 amp, well within the capabilities of the smaller Loksound chip.

#32 two tone green

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 21:25

Hi David,

Thanks for the comments about the delrin drive system. As you have experience in this, when reversing, does the slack in the system cause a lurching as the sprocket and chain change direction and allow a 'free wheeling effect' before both bite and the train starts to move?

As for the decoder, yes your ratings sound about right so will more than likely opt for the standard V3.5.

Sorry Andy, we seem to be moving away from your original topic.

#33 Andy Siddall

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 11:33

Not a problem at all as this discussion does relate quite happily to the finished article and also the question of which chip to fit and the slack in the Delrin must be the most asked questions about the power side of these models.

Mine will be chipped with a standard Loksound v3.5, not the XL.
My 129 is chipped with a standard decoder and I had 4 Mk1's behind it yesterday with no troubles at all, so for hauling itself and a trailer car around I would expect no problems.
The only advantage I have found with the XL chips is the screw terminals and more function outputs which is a godsend in a lot of Diesels with Tail, Marker and Headlights.

As for the Delrin Drive, I have a couple of old PWP/RJH diesels that have delrin Drive and have never had a problem with slack take up as it is such a short length of quite fine link chain.
Once you have the minimum amount of chain length that you can get away with joining up, then if you really wish to take the slack out of it, i would personally make a little tensioner out of plastikard and maybe even spring it if required.
Though personally I cant see the point as after building the motor bogie on the last page and powering it from a 9v battery, it ran very smoothly.

If I get chance I will pit pick-ups to it before our club running session on Sunday and see if I can get a bit of video for you.

Cheers

Andy

#34 two tone green

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 11:44

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the info on the drive system.

Don't forget that wit the 21pin ESU Loksound there is the option to use the breakout board that increases the functions available. Have fitted one to my Bachmann Brassworks 08 awaiting fitting of marker lights, white and red, and smoke unit. The board makes mounting the decoder and speaker easier as well as all the wiring is done easily on the board with nothing to do on the decoder other than push it onto the pins on the board.

I'm getting the 108 sound decoder in the next week and will use two speakers, one in each car to make it sound as if there are two engines running.

#35 boxbrownie

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 16:56

I have just started building the power bogie this evening, although I awaiting confirmation of which type of solvent to use as the bogie moulding appear to be a "soft" poly of some kind, not sure cyano will be a good solution.

As to the delrin slack, I have never experienced any lurching at all, the main axle obviously starts to move first then a fraction later the trailing driven axle joins in, never a problem. As I said I prefer to take up the slack mainly for neatness than engineering reasons, for example the delrin drive on my Class 40 without any tensioner fitted can hang down almost to track level, not a nice look from a low angle! :blink:

I rechecked the power draw last night with the canon motor with normal helical spur gearing and light running was just .2 amp - moderate load was .5 amp - full stall load .9 amp, easily within the remit of the smaller 3.5 decoder.

#36 two tone green

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 17:36

Hi Dave,

Good point, what adhesive to use. I was looking at the bogies this morning thinking I would just play a little and was about to use cyano and was distracted by lunch and stopped. let me know could you what you end up using. I had assumed that the bogies were ABS and that ABS glue or super glue would be ok but will await news on this now.

Unless of course that is Andy happens to pop by as he has already taken the plunge and built his.

Shawn replied to my mail today and will pop the flywheel and CD instructions in the post soon.

#37 boxbrownie

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 21:31

I had a reply from Shawn saying the the bogies are indeed ABS and he uses EMA solvent, which is good news as thats my prefered solvent too!

Tonight I have built the power bogie, went together sooo easy....just like it says on the tin I guess :D

At present it is running in on the rolling road, soon to be reversed. I found for the power bogie being a mix of brass sheet and ABS I used Zap-a-Gap thick cyano, and it works a treat on the mix of materials, I did also tap the two plastic pegs on each bogie side to take 2mm nuts, I then applied the cyano and screwed the nuts on to hold it all together, after which a little runny cyano on the threads secured the nuts permanently, no fear of anything coming adrift there I hope.

The delrin drive can be made exactly the correct length to not give any "slop".....I just connected the links together with the chain off the gears then eased the chain onto the gears ala bicycle chain method.....perfect.

Attached Thumbnails

  • delrin drive showing tension 3.jpg
  • power bogie on rolling road 1.jpg


#38 Andy Siddall

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:18

Morning All...

Nice bogie you have there David, good to see yours coming along so well.

With regard to the solvent used, as well as EMA, Carrs Butanone also seems to do the trick quite well.

Not a lot happening still at the moment as modelling time is still sporadic due to the holidays and I really want a good few hours together in order to get my teeth into the cab fronts (not literally mind :)). Today may see the fitting of pickups to the bogies so they can have a test run around the club track on Sunday.

As a small diversion I have started a couple of Parkside Blue spot fish vans which are going to be painted blue as SPV to add to my parcels rake, I shall put pics of the build of these on my BR Blue thread rather than cluttering this one up.

Cheers

Andy

#39 Andy Siddall

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 17:29

Evening all,

Slow progress on the 108 I am afraid, I have been working on finishing the sides while deciding how to go about the ends. I would like to use the small destination boxes but I would also like to illuminate them, the only problem being that the box is a white metal casting with a brass overlay. Either I will have to settle for not lit or do a bit of surgery.

I have attached a picture for David showing the easybuild brake shoe fixed to the bogie sideframe, it is just glued on with butanone like everything else.
(please excuse the rubbish, phone camera photo!)

19_Bogie.jpg

In between work on the 108 sides, I have been experimenting with the fitting of lights and a removeable tail lamp to my BCK.

The internal wiring to the tail lamp and a socket for the ceiling lights. All of the wiring will be connected under the coach with a function only decoder in the 1st class loo!
BCK_1.JPG

The tail lamp in it's socket.
BCK_2.JPG

The Socket on the rear of the coach.
BCK_3.JPG

The tail lamp is a square bodied LED, with the lens filed flat, with a styrene rod 'chimney' and brass strip handle.
BCK_4.JPG

The male connector for the roof lights.
BCK_5.JPG

12v LED strips have been used for the interior as an experiment. Although I now think that should have used individual LEDs per compartment and saved these for the opens.
BCK_6.JPG

Cheers

Andy
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#40 boxbrownie

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 20:17

Andy, if they are similar to the LED strips I bought from Maplin a while ago they are BRIGHT B) I have used them for station lighting on my Japanese N gauge layout and they give the perfect cool light for modern strip lights, I am worried they might be a bit too cool for the poor old tungsten bulbs used on the 108s, will be interesting.

As for the brake shoes, thats how I figured the EB set would look like. Unfortunately they are quite wrong in as much they have no "drop arm" and also seem to be a bit underscale, I think maybe a set of loco tender brake shoes and arms might do the trick, if I can find a tender that had 3'1" wheels and there are shoes made for them!

I wanted to put the cross bars that are such a prominent feature of these bogies and for that need the drop arms on the shoes, hey but thats the fun eh? :rolleyes:

I have been experimenting this evening with narrowing a Roxey gearbox so I can fit it below the power bogie brass stretcher, as I have found that the standard gear set are barely in mesh and any weight put upon the bogie causes nasty noises as the mesh changes. I think I can adapt the Roxey box as a "supplementary" support gearbox and run the primary driven axle in the gearbox bearings.....but this is all trial and error presently....I may just reinforce the stretcher if my Heath Robinson gearbox mod fails :D

Oh I just love the tinkering.

#41 Andy Siddall

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 23:17

David, I know what you mean about the brakeshoes personally I have them on the 129 and Mk1s and it's one of those things that just doesn't bother me too much, I ran the motor bogie around the club test track on sunday without problems and didn't see an issue with weight causing the mesh to change but I shall investigate further.

The LED strips I got from Rapid electronics, who I use for all of my bits and pieces, they do a few different types of strip with differing LED spacing. I think they will be too bright as well but as I am running them through a function only decoder I can really bring them down and as for the colour they are warm white tungsten(ish) matched ones. As i work in the TV lighting industry I tend to find that the colour temperature of the light source is my primary concern. :D

Cheers

Andy

#42 boxbrownie

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 07:54

I'm a "pro" too.....so Kelvin is a good mate of mine :lol: Thats interesting about Rapid LEDs coming in different temps, I must admit although they are only up the road a little from me I have only used them a few times but when I have they have been......well as thier name suggests fast and excellent components too, but I missed thier strip lighting.

I pondered over the brakes shoes a while I admit, but as this is going together so easy I thought I'd take a bit more time over adding a few details (and as I am building the bogies first, these came in for the first scrutiny.....I may get tired and later loose interest and just throw the bodies together though :D )

The meshing is by no means a big issue, certainly the power bogie runs nice as it is (but its does run noisier in one direction than the other which tends to indicate a mesh change, and the only reason I can see is the slight flexability of the brass/ABS construction).....its just me fiddling and trying to make things more difficult than they could be, just in case.

#43 Andy Siddall

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 18:40

Hi All,

Not much to report today, between getting the Volvo MOT and preparing for work next week, I have only really managed to get a bit of paint on the window frames and the lining done on 2 sides.

As to the BCK lighting experiment, the LED strips were a success however they are better suited to an Open coach as there are just too many light sources per compartment. I have now made my own little circuit boards out of stripboard each with 1 LED soldered to it. I will place one of these over the middle of each compartment and place a couple or three over the corridor as I think that will give more of a bulb lit look.

The only problem now is that I will run out of LEDs so it's time to build an order for Rapid...

Cheers

Andy

#44 boxbrownie

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 19:11

Thats good to hear those Rapid LEDs work well, did you turn the wick down or are they Ok "out of the box"?

Tonight in the shed I tried my little experiment with the modified Roxey gearbox.....but alas I need another mill or so of the width and I don't think the gearbox will take any more fiddling without me buggering it up completely. I did a more careful check on the meshing with the standard set-up and mine is certainly trying to unmesh in one direction under load, so I am not giving up on the gearbox idea but I just need to find someone who makes a 40:1 box with a max width of 12mm for 7mm scale. I seem to recollect seeing something about a narrow gearbox in the past but like all these things it appears to have the avoidance skill of Osama Binladen :D

I am going to get there, determined now :angry:

How do you get the time Andy, I haven't even looked at the body yet.....

#45 Softvark

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 19:21

I've also used those Rapid lighting strips on my JLTRT BCK and SO (Rapid are also literally around the corner from me!) and they have worked really well. I turned down the brightness with, I think, a 330R resistor and I reckon the colour temp to be pretty good.

The price is attractive as well.

Julian

#46 Andy Siddall

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 00:35

Hi David and Julian,

I certainly turned the wick down. On the first attempt I used a 12-14v LED Strip with a function only decoder and popped a 33k resistor in line with them (I personally don't like turning the decoder output down as should you ever need to reset to factory default and forget.........:blink:) and the more I thought about it I am not particularly fussed about switching the lights, so I am going to use a rectifier and voltage regulator circuit to give me 5v in future.

David, I get the time as I am Freelance and have had no work yet this year, however the year starts in earnest on Tuesday so I think the build will slow again. Saying that if you are doing a Blue Grey unit, it is always worth starting the sides first as you can be doing other things like bogies while the paint is drying...
I also seem to recall that it was Roxey that either did or still do a narrow gearbox as Tim Hughes from meteor suggests one for his LNER Y1 kit, although I have never seen one advertised on the roxey site it coukd be worth contacting Dave and asking!

Cheers

Andy

#47 boxbrownie

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 00:49

I spoke to Dave last week when I ordered a set of his excellent steel wheels for the 108 power bogie experiment, he has no narrow boxes I am afraid.

I am leaning towards just plain blue...then again who knows, if the winds changes I might go blue and grey :D I only ever recall seeing them in plain blue on my line here, and thats the usual inspiration for building or buying a particular loco so maybe I had better stay with what I remember? :rolleyes:

#48 boxbrownie

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 18:12

I ordered a bundle of Slaters brake shoes today, although I have not seen a piccy of them from the description the nice lady at Slaters gave me they sound about right :blink: who knows.....well I will in a few days!

Slowed down here too, the wet weather has kept me indoors along with a very busy work week, just not feeling the "build bug" in the evenings :(

I had a go at strengthening the power bogie brass stretcher with two lengths of brass square section tube....its all stiff now, ooo'er missus :lol:

Seems to be much better with very similar gear noise in both directions, always a good indication.

#49 Andy Siddall

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 06:44

Hi David,

It will be interesting t see if the Slaters brake blocks are up for the job as the more I look at the bogies I have the more I would like to see prominent brake gear.
As for progress, I am now back into leaving the house at 7am and walking back in at around 9pm so I can't see a lot happening for the next few weeks especially as I have other duties planned for the weekends.

Cheers

Andy

#50 boxbrownie

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 08:05

Andy.....real life sucks when it gets in the way of modelling eh? :lol: I think I am lucky if I manage to get more than 3 hours a week solid modelling....roll on retirement.

I'll pop some piccies up as soon as I get the brakes here, hopefully by the weekend.







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