Manchester Central, CLC & GN Warehouses & Castlefield Viaducts

[Horsetan]

I'm strapped into my seat waiting for the ride of my life!!!!! :good: :good:

 

It's going to be bloody massive!

[Michael Delamar]

Ron will you be running the North country continental?

 

something im wondering is what the motive power would have been used between Liverpool central and Manchester central?

because I believe the B16 footballers started at Manchester?

later class 37's where used but I dont think they got to Liverpool, i think the service was cut back to Manchester Picadilly at that time?

Edited November 1, 2012 by michael delamar

[Dagworth]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20158919

 

Andi

[Poggy1165]

something im wondering is what the motive power would have been used between Liverpool central and Manchester central?

because I believe the B16 footballers started at Manchester?

later class 37's where used but I dont think they got to Liverpool, i think the service was cut back to Manchester Picadilly at that time?

 

I think the most likely power at this period would be an ex-LMS 2-6-4t. Not sure whether Stanier or Fairburn. Not my period and my memories don't go back quite that far. Between Central and Guide Bridge, originally an A5, later an L1, then as per above, with the occasional substitution of a B1 or LMS Crab. No shortage of interesting motive power at this location, at least not until the diesels won.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Poggy1165

[Ron Heggs]

Ron will you be running the North country continental?

 

something im wondering is what the motive power would have been used between Liverpool central and Manchester central?

because I believe the B16 footballers started at Manchester?

later class 37's where used but I dont think they got to Liverpool, i think the service was cut back to Manchester Piccadilly at that time?

Originally, the unofficially named 'North Country Continental' was the boat train from Hull & Harwich through to Liverpool. When Manchester Central was about to close circa 1967, the service was transferred initially via Manchester Piccadilly, which then became the terminus of the service when Liverpool Central closed. The service eventually ran between Harwich & Manchester Piccadilly

 

I think the most likely power at this period would be an ex-LMS 2-6-4t. Not sure whether Stanier or Fairburn. Not my period and my memories don't go back quite that far. Between Central and Guide Bridge, originally an A5, later an L1, then as per above, with the occasional substitution of a B1 or LMS Crab. No shortage of interesting motive power at this location, at least not until the diesels won.

During this period, from Guide Bridge the train was also provided with electrical traction into Sheffield Victoria

[Ron Heggs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...hester-20158919

 

Andi

After 16 years, it looks like another 15 years before a possible completion - Considering that it has already been left derelict for 43 years, that's not a good reflection Manchester's usual progressiveness

 

I think one the problems holding this project back, is that the viaduct is on the south-west edge of the central area of the city not an area which will draw many people to it

Edited November 2, 2012 by Ron Heggs

[the penguin of doom]

 

Originally, the unofficially named 'North Country Continental' was the boat train from Hull & Harwich through to Liverpool. When Manchester Central was about to close circa 1967, the service was transferred initially via Manchester Piccadilly, which then became the terminus of the service when Liverpool Central closed. The service eventually ran between Harwich & Manchester Piccadilly

 

 

During this period, from Guide Bridge the train was also provided with electrical traction into Sheffield Victoria

 

That's interesting Ron. I never realised Hull had a "boat train" so to speak. The only one I'd heard of up till now was the "Hook Continental" which I think ran from Harwich to Manchester.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Grovenor]

I think one the problems holding this project back, is that the viaduct is on the south-west edge of the central area of the city not an area which will draw many people to it

It would have been earlier, but the whole area has been regenerated and the canals revitalised and it is now a popular destination, check it out on Google street view.

Keith

[65179]

Ron will you be running the North country continental?

 

something im wondering is what the motive power would have been used between Liverpool central and Manchester central?

because I believe the B16 footballers started at Manchester?

later class 37's where used but I dont think they got to Liverpool, i think the service was cut back to Manchester Picadilly at that time?

 

 

The Harwich boat trains weren't hauled by B17s through to Manchester in BR days or to be more precise the through running from Ipswich to Manchester using B17s didn't resume on the Continental post-war (B17s still appeared at Manchester Central whilst still allocated to the LNER GC section though). From some point in 1950 the B17s worked south from Sheffield Victoria, before that post-war there was an intermediate leg with an Immingham D11. I'm still looking for a 1950 view of a B17 at Manchester Central!

 

A B1 was normal motive power for the trip over Woodhead until the MSW electrification and then A5s etc was used as per Poggy1165 's comments with the possible addition of one of Gorton's K3s.

 

The bit you are interested in Michael (Liverpool-Manchester) was most interesting just before Ron's period. In early BR days the Liverpool-Harwich or the separate Liverpool-Hull trains could have been hauled by LNER D9, D10, D11 or D16 4-4-0s or LMS 2P and 4P 4-4-0s (and the odd Black 5). As Poggy1165 states Stanier and Fairburn 2-6-4Ts alongside Black 5s would have been most common in Ron's period.

 

The above is a gross simplification and isn't an exhaustive list.

 

 

That's interesting Ron. I never realised Hull had a "boat train" so to speak. The only one I'd heard of up till now was the "Hook Continental" which I think ran from Harwich to Manchester.

 

 

The North Country Continental was the unofficial title for the Harwich-Liverpool (originally splitting into two with one portion going Harwich-York). The Hook Continental was confusingly one of the London Liverpool Street-Harwich boat trains rather than Liverpool-Harwich.

 

Simon

[the penguin of doom]

Thanks Simon.

 

Out of curiosity more than anything, could you, (or others), elaborate on traction for the Harwich to York section and any boat trains passing through Hull.

 

Ron - a bit of a hijack above, so sincere apologies.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Ron Heggs]

I'm still looking for a 1950 view of a B17 at Manchester Central!

 

Simon

Hi, Simon

 

The only pictures I can find of B17's at Manchester Central are LNER 2841 Gayton Hall in mid. 1930's, and LNER 2864 Liverpool in 1946

 

Ron

[Ron Heggs]

Thanks Simon.

 

Out of curiosity more than anything, could you, (or others), elaborate on traction for the Harwich to York section and any boat trains passing through Hull.

 

Ron - a bit of a hijack above, so sincere apologies.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Hi, Sean

 

No problem - this all interesting info

 

Ron

[65179]

Thanks Simon.

 

Out of curiosity more than anything, could you, (or others), elaborate on traction for the Harwich to York section and any boat trains passing through Hull.

 

 

No problem. I'm on the brink of a house move so most of my reference material is boxed up and inaccessible at the moment so what follows is mostly from memory. The Continental seems to have started out as predominantly a Harwich-York service in (I think) GER days with the Liverpool portion only becoming the more important one later (this may have been at the same time that use of one engine (B12 then later B17) on the Ipswich-Manchester section started in 1927). The splitting of the train at Lincoln with a portion going on to York seems not to have been resumed when the boat train started running again in 1948, but may have stopped before WWII. There is a photo stated to be the York portion behind a GC B4 4-6-0 in 1938 in an article on the Harwich Boat trains in the March 1999 Steam Days, which if accurate may point to the York portion lasting until the outbreak of WWII. Certainly, the RCTS Locomotives of the LNER volume covering the B4s has this as a Lincoln B4 job from about 1935.

 

I've not heard of the Liverpool-Hulls being referred to as boat trains, but in late LNER days and BR days and prior to MSW electrification these were worked by Gorton, and possibly Darnall B1s, (over the Manchester-Sheffield section at least - RCTS Locomotives of the LNER refers to a Mexborough B1 being used somewhere as well). GNR Atlantics were used for a period in the 1930s. My main interest is a couple of miles south of Ron's magnum opus so I don't know what happened at the eastern end after electrification or if a loco change took place at Sheffield Victoria earlier I'm afraid.

 

Sorry I can't give more info.

 

Simon

[65179]

Hi, Simon

 

The only pictures I can find of B17's at Manchester Central are LNER 2841 Gayton Hall in mid. 1930's, and LNER 2864 Liverpool in 1946

 

Ron

 

Thanks Ron. I've also seen 1930's views of 2816 and 2841 at Chorlton, but the only BR era photos I've seen are either at Gorton or running-in turns at London Road sadly.

 

Simon

[Michael Delamar]

am I right in thinking the North country continental didnt have a loco nameboard?

[Ron Heggs]

am I right in thinking the North country continental didnt have a loco nameboard?

Michael, you are correct

 

The train had neither a loco headboard nor carriage boards - it was an unofficial name which came into prominence after the First World War

 

Ron

[the penguin of doom]

Thanks for clearing up the above post Simon.

 

Some verz interesting points.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Blandford1969]

Hi Ron,

 

You can also

Hi, Simon

 

The only pictures I can find of B17's at Manchester Central are LNER 2841 Gayton Hall in mid. 1930's, and LNER 2864 Liverpool in 1946

 

Ron

 

Hi Ron,

 

You can add 2809 Quidenham onto the list of B17s at Manchester. Sadly I can't seam to be able to attach the scan of the negative at the moment. Look forward to seeing more progress on this impressive layout.

 

regards

 

Duncan

[Blandford1969]

Hi Ron

Edited November 11, 2012 by Blandford1969

[robrailltd]

This area has changed so much again over the last 6 months with Stanchions going up from Castlefield Junction to Ordsall lane and onto the Chat Moss!

[Michael Edge]

I travelled between Liverpool and Sheffield fairly regularly from 1959 to 1968, in steam days normal motive power was an LMS 2-6-4T (Stanier or Fairburn) to Manchester Central, another of the same would then couple on the back of the train for the trip round to Guide Bridge wher an EM2 or EM1 would couple on to go to Sheffield Victoria. In the case of the boat train, a B1 was the usual change at Victoria (the B17s had all gone by 1959), I did see an occasional Britannia on this but I don't recall anything other than tank locos (always chimney first by the way - they used to get to fairly high speeds on the CLC) for the Liverpool - Guide Bridge legs.

Michael Edge

[Joseph_Pestell]

There were Hull-Liverpool "boat trains" but outside the scope of this Manchester Central thread. They transported emigrants from Central and Eastern Europe to the USA. In Hull (and Liverpool?) they were escorted through the streets in large groups surrounded by police for fear that they would pass on exotic illnesses to the local population.

[Ron Heggs]

Have been doodling with design ideas for the lift which will be used to lower the train shed trackwork from below the platforms when maintenance/access is required, as the roof structure will not be removable

 

The board which will carry the tracks will be 2000mm x 800mm

 

The lift will need to keep the board horizontal, raise/lower it from 300mm AFL to 1150mm AFL, and keep it accurately in register with the platforms and tracks on the main layout board

 

A scissor lift appears to be the best design with vertical guides

 

A motor/gearbox drive will be employed with a threaded rod horizontally mounted to move the scissor legs together/apart and the board up/down

 

The metal bars carrying the bush and nut for the threaded rod will pivot at each leg to allow the legs to move and the rod to remain horizontal

 

 

Fixed castor wheels will be fitted at each end of each leg, and run in guides at floor level and under the board

 

The centre pivot axle will be guided to move only vertically by centrally mounted guides at each side of the lift. This will ensure that the wheels will remain at equal distance from the centre, and thus keep the board level

 

At upper points where the board is close to the main board metal angle guides will ensure accurate track registration

 

Microswitches will be employed to enable vertical movements to be limited at upper and lower levels

[BernardTPM]

You've been watching too many episodes of 'Stingray' and 'Thunderbirds'! Brilliant!

The only thing I would say is that it mght be a good idea to have some kind of 'stop' to ensure trains don't roll off the end when the tracks are lowered.

[artizen]

I bet you've already thought of this - why not have a trap door arrangement so the board is held with two drawbolts and the other side is hinged? You are only going to be cleaning track or fixing electrical faults. This way the board is presented vertically so that both sides can be accessed when dropped?

 

Still with me? Clear as mud? I just think the motor-driven screw drive arrangement is capable of giving you many grey hairs if it fails.