RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2011 I'm reaching the stage now where I need the paintjob doing on my Comet coach kit.All photos of the livery I have are from BR days.The livery is the same choc/cream double lined Great ~ Western as Bachmann do their Colletts. Does anyone know of any online reference/photos to show where the numbers and restaurant letters go.Would the word 'kitchen' be applied to the relevant door as well ? Heres a brake compo on the SDR in the livery I want. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_coach_E164_BCK_7377.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2011 What diagram is it Rob? The location of the words Restaurant varies sometimes central sometimes offset, and in some cases appears twice on the same side. From the pictures that I have access to I can't see the word kitchen applied to the relevant door, this appears to have been something introduced by BR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 23, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2011 What diagram is it Rob? The location of the words Restaurant varies sometimes central sometimes offset, and in some cases appears twice on the same side. From the pictures that I have access to I can't see the word kitchen applied to the relevant door, this appears to have been something introduced by BR. H57, Kris thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2011 Ha, typical, I don't think that I have an early image of those only ones in BR service. I shall have a hunt later but don't hold your breath. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I don't know which diagram you have done, but if you can find a copy of Russell's Appendix 2, it has pictures of the following coaches/diagrams in Hawksworth livery: 9543 H15 (double-lined, Great <crest> Western) Waist lettering - number, Restaurant Car, number 9548 H16 (double-lined, Great <crest> Western) Waist lettering - number, Restaurant Car, number 9564 H25 (double-lined, Great <crest> Western) Waist lettering - Third (on door), number, Restaurant Car, number, First (on door) 9572 H27 (double-lined, Great <crest> Western) Waist lettering - number, GWR, First Class, Restaurant Car, Third Class, GWR, number 9574 H29 (double-lined, <crest> only) Waist lettering - number, GWR, Third Class, Restaurant Car, First Class, GWR, number 9575 H29 (single lined, <crest> only) Waist lettering - number, GWR, First Class, Restaurant Car, Third Class, GWR, number 9606 H38 (single lined, <crest> only) Waist lettering - number, GWR, Third Class, Restaurant Car, First Class, GWR, number Kitchen appears to have only been used on dedicated kitchen cars, not on restaurants. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2011 Kitchen appears to have only been used on dedicated kitchen cars, not on restaurants. Just as an addition note Where the kitchen branding appears, this is in place of the main restaurant branding rather than on doors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 23, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thanks very much you both especially Adrian.I have that book and failed to look at the earlier diagrams.It seems the restaurant car branding was directly above the coat of arms.I was hoping a well known coach painter of this parish would give us his professional views.He must have done one surely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hawksworth livery on Restaurant cars is a tricky area especially for the H57's. They were the last GWR Restaurant design entering service from November 1938 and would have been last in line for a repaint. With the war starting less than a year into their lives it is unlikely they were repainted into the Hawksworth livery. During the war most of the entire GWR diner fleet became run down with some stored out of use post war on the Henley branch. As post war services attempted to return to normal the GWR diners were refurbished, mainly by private contractor Hamptons. Being the last build and possibly in the best condition, the H57 refurbishment came late. 9672 was photographed at Newton Abbot in 1947 still unrefurbished with it''s 1930's single lining still intact. (HMRS 20120, photo published GWR Diners part 3, Modellers Backtrack December 1992). It might help that the H57's design was based on the H33 in terms of layout etc with the current modern style of windows and an additional set of third class eating. There is an excellent clear shot of refurbished H33 in Hawksworth livery (HMRS20112) to follow as a guide.This same shot appears in part 2 of the above article. Depending on your time period beware of H57 9673 which formed part of Eisenhower's SHAEF train being fitted with airbrakes and used extensively in Europe, not returning to England until 1946. Again can I recommend the David Geen three part series published in Modellers Backtrack which carries full external/internal plans for the H57 (and all the other diagrams). I keep suggesting to David that he expands the articles and publishes them as a book, this is the first and only time all the information has been put together in one place, but he never has the time. Hope this helps Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I may have painted a few H57's in my time but with some 280 4mm coaches a year passing through at one time I just cannot remember individual coaches. With no official photos to go off, I would look at another GWR diner with similar layout for insignia layout. As Mike W. points out, these were in storage during WW2 and may have re-entered traffic after the war with just a spruce up. The IA video "Decades of Steam : The 1940s" is worth looking at for GWR coaching stock liveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 24, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hawksworth livery on Restaurant cars is a tricky area especially for the H57's. They were the last GWR Restaurant design entering service from November 1938 and would have been last in line for a repaint. With the war starting less than a year into their lives it is unlikely they were repainted into the Hawksworth livery. During the war most of the entire GWR diner fleet became run down with some stored out of use post war on the Henley branch. As post war services attempted to return to normal the GWR diners were refurbished, mainly by private contractor Hamptons. Being the last build and possibly in the best condition, the H57 refurbishment came late. 9672 was photographed at Newton Abbot in 1947 still unrefurbished with it''s 1930's single lining still intact. (HMRS 20120, photo published GWR Diners part 3, Modellers Backtrack December 1992). Depending on your time period beware of H57 9673 which formed part of Eisenhower's SHAEF train being fitted with airbrakes and used extensively in Europe, not returning to England until 1946. Hope this helps Mike Wiltshire Thanks Mike.Do you think the other H57s might have had the livery I want then ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2011 Robin. You could try contacting Robert Dudley-Cooke of Kingstorre fame. I'm sure he won't mind. Do you want me to ask him if it's OK to give you his phone number/email address? Sincerely, Phil @ 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 24, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2011 Robin. You could try contacting Robert Dudley-Cooke of Kingstorre fame. I'm sure he won't mind. Do you want me to ask him if it's OK to give you his phone number/email address? Sincerely, Phil @ 36E I'm not familiar with him but an email address would be good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Had a long conversation with David Geen last night. He has gone though his photographs and GA's and cannot find any record of H57 restaurants in Hawksworth livery. Swindon issued painting diagrams and he cannot find one in the register, but there are several drawings that exist that are not included in the register for some reason so draw your own conclusions here. He confirmed my previous post to the fact that as the last build if any did get a repaint it would have been well into 1947. The H57 were the last batch to be sent to Hamptons as mechanically they were in the best condition. Earlier designs had been returned by then and could take up the premier services. The H33 photograph being a typical example. Due to the time period taken for refurbishment, it is likely that some/all the H57's were not returned until after nationalisation, in which case it would they would have been painted in full Hawksworth livery with without GREAT (CREST) WESTERN. 9672 photographed in Collett era livery in 1947 would not have been returned until well into 1948, after nationalisation. We have both been hitting the books to try and find a H57 in service in the 1946-8 period but without success. David is going check with his Great Western Study Group Colleagues to see if they have anything in their collections. I'll report back next week Regards Mike Wiltshire Thanks Mike.Do you think the other H57s might have had the livery I want then ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 As I have said often, the cut off point for GWR choc & cream painting appears to have been around Apri/May 1949, after which the painters opened their new tins of blood and curstard. GWR insignia was not applied after the first few days of nationalization. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 For anyone who has been following this thread, the two photographs I mentioned previously appear in large format, printed in Great Western Journal no 50 (Summer 2004) page 107 and 110. The issue contains a detailed shot of a H33 in Hawksworth livery and also the H57 in 1930's Collett livery taken in 1947 and detailed workings of the diners. Regards Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 For anyone who has been following this thread, the two photographs I mentioned previously appear in large format, printed in Great Western Journal no 50 (Summer 2004) page 107 and 110. I have just found the same photo and it looks like 9672 (H57) is not double lined in the style of the Bachmann collett coaches but only has single lining separating the chocolate and cream. I would suggest getting a copy if you are looking for reference material. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Hawksworth livery on Restaurant cars is a tricky area especially for the H57's. They were the last GWR Restaurant design entering service from November 1938 and would have been last in line for a repaint. With the war starting less than a year into their lives it is unlikely they were repainted into the Hawksworth livery. During the war most of the entire GWR diner fleet became run down with some stored out of use post war on the Henley branch. As post war services attempted to return to normal the GWR diners were refurbished, mainly by private contractor Hamptons. Being the last build and possibly in the best condition, the H57 refurbishment came late. 9672 was photographed at Newton Abbot in 1947 still unrefurbished with it''s 1930's single lining still intact. (HMRS 20120, photo published GWR Diners part 3, Modellers Backtrack December 1992). It might help that the H57's design was based on the H33 in terms of layout etc with the current modern style of windows and an additional set of third class eating. There is an excellent clear shot of refurbished H33 in Hawksworth livery (HMRS20112) to follow as a guide.This same shot appears in part 2 of the above article. Depending on your time period beware of H57 9673 which formed part of Eisenhower's SHAEF train being fitted with airbrakes and used extensively in Europe, not returning to England until 1946. Again can I recommend the David Geen three part series published in Modellers Backtrack which carries full external/internal plans for the H57 (and all the other diagrams). I keep suggesting to David that he expands the articles and publishes them as a book, this is the first and only time all the information has been put together in one place, but he never has the time. Hope this helps Mike Wiltshire Mike, Could you advise what issues of Modellers Backtrack , the David Geen articles are in please? Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Mike, Could you advise what issues of Modellers Backtrack , the David Geen articles are in please? Khris Just spent the day with David and the articles came up in conversation. others and myself have been encouraging him to put the three articles, together with further information and photographs that has come to light since, in a book, card cover approx 100 pages style. Encouraging signs. Watch this space. Three articles published in Modellers Backtrack - August/September 1992 (vol. 2 no. 3), October/November 1992 (vol. 2 no. 4), December 92/January 93 (vol. 2 no. 3). Regards MIke Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Mike, Could you advise what issues of Modellers Backtrack , the David Geen articles are in please? Khris A full set on eBay at the moment. The covers with the 9F, the signal and the Black 5/cattle wagon are the issues you want/ http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Modellers-BackTrack-Volume-2-Full-Set-6-Magazines-Apr-May-92-Feb-Mar-93-/300601175199?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item45fd39ec9f Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 A full set on eBay at the moment. The covers with the 9F, the signal and the Black 5/cattle wagon are the issues you want/ http://www.ebay.co.u...=item45fd39ec9f Mike Wiltshire Thanks Mike, Much appreciated. khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Just spent the day with David and the articles came up in conversation. others and myself have been encouraging him to put the three articles, together with further information and photographs that has come to light since, in a book, card cover approx 100 pages style. Encouraging signs. Watch this space. Please put me down for a copy too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 I may have painted a few H57's in my time but with some 280 4mm coaches a year passing through at one time I just cannot remember individual coaches. With no official photos to go off, I would look at another GWR diner with similar layout for insignia layout. As Mike W. points out, these were in storage during WW2 and may have re-entered traffic after the war with just a spruce up. The IA video "Decades of Steam : The 1940s" is worth looking at for GWR coaching stock liveries.hang on, Coachman. We aren’t expecting you to recall all 280 coaches, just the GWR restaurant coaches! You must do better take your pick of these. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 hang on, Coachman. We aren’t expecting you to recall all 280 coaches, just the GWR restaurant coaches! You must do better take your pick of these.i’m sure I put in some emojis for you to laugh at, where have they gone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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