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Early diesels





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#1 Ray H

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 17:04

I believe that early diesel multiple units appeared minus yellow panels i.e. with just the speed whiskers. What was the situation with diesel locomotives? I've just acquired a class 25 for use on my early 60's layout and wonder whether the small yellow panel on the front is correct.

Thanks

Ray

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#2 Pennine MC

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 17:13

A question often asked, hence the absolute answer will be tucked away in one of the many old threads but small yellow panels were definitely being applied by 1962 with the earliest possibly in 1961. Assuming the 25 is the Bachmann model (later 25/1), it will be correct as that body type didn't appear until early 1963 so would have the yellow from new

As for DMUs, the earliest livery variation was actually plain fronts - whiskers came after that

#3 Ray H

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 17:20

Many thanks.
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#4 Russell Saxton

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 19:50

I think Feb 1962 was the date of introduction. All 24s were delivered without them and the first few 25s. After about 5180 they had them from new.

#5 Pennine MC

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 19:53

... and the first few 25s. After about 5180 they had them from new.


Russ, I know the 25/0s didnt have them but was never sure about the earliest 25/1s - are there any pics?

#6 Russell Saxton

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 20:07

It might be as soon as 5176. Also the very last few 25/0s may have had panels from new. I don't (but would love to) know!

#7 AMJ

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 22:03

There are also photos available of Deltics without SYE. Some items look better without the yellow others just seem to look right.

I like rats and so you can't have too many - espescially if sound fitted.

#8 Dave777

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 07:06

Yes, Deltics look just wrong without them...

http://www.amazon.co...98185437&sr=8-1

Although I always think Class 33s in plain green look superb. Weird isn't it?! :P

#9 James

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 07:19

Yes, Deltics look just wrong without them...

My dad would tell you that 37s, 40s and Deltics were ruined once warning panels were applied to their green liveries!
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#10 Baby Deltic

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 07:35

I think yellow ruined the look of class 21's.

#11 The Stationmaster

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:15

My dad would tell you that 37s, 40s and Deltics were ruined once warning panels were applied to their green liveries!


I'm inclined to agree with your dad - in fact it ruined the appearance of most locos I think although it blended in reasonably well on the Hymeks which had looked a bit dour without it. But the true ruination came with the full yellow ends - awful!
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#12 stewartingram

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:27

Yes, Deltics look just wrong without them...

http://www.amazon.co...98185437&sr=8-1

Although I always think Class 33s in plain green look superb. Weird isn't it?! :P


Nooooo - just style!

#13 robertcwp

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:38

The first 25/1 D5176 was not outshopped until January 1963 (per the D&C book on Sulzer diesels by Brian Webb) so it seems likely that yellow panels were applied from then onwards. Bachmann have modelled this version, albeit with grilles looking more like those on a 24.

The final 25/0 D5175 (a version looking more like a later 24 and not modelled by Bachmann) appeared in April 1962 so might have been out early enough not to have had a yellow panel. D5164 delivered in early Autumn 1961 did not have one.

Some Class 33s were still without yellow panels in 1968, such as D6583.

#14 Oldddudders

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:46

I'm inclined to agree with your dad - in fact it ruined the appearance of most locos I think although it blended in reasonably well on the Hymeks which had looked a bit dour without it. But the true ruination came with the full yellow ends - awful!

It's an age thing, Mike - we just have to live with it! Entirely in your corner on this one - if there had been a splurge of repainting diesels in their original livery, instead of spraying everything in the dreary blue and appalling yellow ends, the railway would have looked much smarter. I don't doubt yellow ends saved lives, but nowadays safety systems for protecting on-track personnel are much tighter, so perhaps they could be done away with?
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#15 The Stationmaster

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:08

It's an age thing, Mike - we just have to live with it! Entirely in your corner on this one - if there had been a splurge of repainting diesels in their original livery, instead of spraying everything in the dreary blue and appalling yellow ends, the railway would have looked much smarter. I don't doubt yellow ends saved lives, but nowadays safety systems for protecting on-track personnel are much tighter, so perhaps they could be done away with?



Well they can at least be much reduced in area nowadays if the Group Standard is exploited to the full. And yes - full agreement on all your other comments including the one about the age thing (because that way we can remember what we've lostPosted Image)



#16 Poor Old Bruce

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 14:41

I don't doubt yellow ends saved lives, but nowadays safety systems for protecting on-track personnel are much tighter, so perhaps they could be done away with?

Yellow ends could be done away with now that all train have headlamps - best day's work somone ever did IMO, much easier to see the things coming.

Getting back to the OT, full yellow ends were being applied by 1968 (don't know the earliest but probably covered on here somewhere) but small yellow ends lasted a while longer. I have photos of four peaks all in different liveries taken on the same day in August 1968, only one was FYE.

#17 Fat Controller

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 16:11

Here's two photos from Robert Carroll's excellent site, taken three months apart in 1967:-
http://www.flickr.co...cwp/5448347796/
http://www.flickr.co...cwp/5448347582/
I was somewhat surprised to see a loco without any yellow that late on.

#18 Pennine MC

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 16:40

I was somewhat surprised to see a loco without any yellow that late on.


As Robert says above, 33s in particular lasted quite late, in some cases into 1968 at least. I've droned on about this before but my contender for the last all-green main liner would be 8033, which I believe lasted into late 1968 or possibly early '69

#19 Russell Saxton

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 21:56

8033 was reported in December 1968's Railway Observer as being devoid of any yellow panels but the last concrete evidence I have is February 1967. It's sadly among those I do not have a repaint date green to blue for.

As for 33s at least 6507/9/44/83/5 had no yellow ends of any kind into1968 and there were a few dozen running in 1965/66.

I don't know which loco was the very last to run in plain green, highly likely to be 8033 but just as possible to have been a 33.

#20 Russell Saxton

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 22:00

On a related topic i have just done an article for Railways Illustrated covering blue locos with yellow panels of which there were quite a few.

Classes involved were 22, 25, 27, 35, D600s, 42, 47, 52 and from electrics, 73, 76, 77, 81-86.



#21 slilley

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 20:58

Yellow ends could be done away with now that all train have headlamps - best day's work somone ever did IMO, much easier to see the things coming.

Getting back to the OT, full yellow ends were being applied by 1968 (don't know the earliest but probably covered on here somewhere) but small yellow ends lasted a while longer. I have photos of four peaks all in different liveries taken on the same day in August 1968, only one was FYE.



The impetus for this livery variation came initially from the Head of Accident Prevention. Full yellow fronts first became policy following the BR Board meeting of 10 June 1966. As part of this the Chief Engineer (T&RS) Department agreed with to paint several locomotives including at least one Brush Type 4 with an enlarged yellow front. . With regard to the adoption of full yellow fronts on locomotives still in green the Chief Engineer (T&RS) asked the General Manager Workshops on 22nd February 1967 to paint green locos with full yellow fronts in future where their paintwork only needed touching up and they were not being repainted blue.

#22 Pennine MC

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 22:52

8033 was reported in December 1968's Railway Observer as being devoid of any yellow panels but the last concrete evidence I have is February 1967. It's sadly among those I do not have a repaint date green to blue for.



It does appear in the Andrew Fell '20s in colour' book Russ, outshopped GFYE at Crewe on 26.1.69 so it probably remained green a while after that; my contention would be that it entered shops all-green sometime after the RO sighting (late 68 or possibly very early 69). Like you though, I'd love to see a photo.

Other than this and 33s, I do recall seeing mention of an all-green 22 in the RO in 1966, which is pretty late. Just browsing Brian Dickson's 'Diesel Days Scotland' however, on p110 there is a shot of D5310 with no yellow, said to be taken on 14.6.66. I'm a bit doubtful on it, but it is a Colin Gifford shot and seems to coincide with his 'heyday', so to speak. Anybody any thoughts?

#23 Enterprisingwestern

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:28

I don't know which loco was the very last to run in plain green, highly likely to be 8033 but just as possible to have been a 33.


I photographed a plain green D3583 on Crewe shed on 21/12/69, probably a strong contender?
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#24 Russell Saxton

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:25

The impetus for this livery variation came initially from the Head of Accident Prevention. Full yellow fronts first became policy following the BR Board meeting of 10 June 1966. As part of this the Chief Engineer (T&RS) Department agreed with to paint several locomotives including at least one Brush Type 4 with an enlarged yellow front. . With regard to the adoption of full yellow fronts on locomotives still in green the Chief Engineer (T&RS) asked the General Manager Workshops on 22nd February 1967 to paint green locos with full yellow fronts in future where their paintwork only needed touching up and they were not being repainted blue.



Oh, where have you been all my life? I have been trying to get the exact date for the decree to paint green locos with FYE for years! I knew it was circa Feb 1967 but it could have been a month either side.

#25 Russell Saxton

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:32

I photographed a plain green D3583 on Crewe shed on 21/12/69, probably a strong contender?



3176 was all over BLACK until repaint to blue in june 1969 but that is the latest I have heard of one without yellow. You say you photographed it- could i ask politely if you could post it here or email me a copy? I'd be very grateful.







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