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Questions of Swiss Colour and French Numbers





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#1 DIW

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 16:06

I have a couple of questions relating to Continental railways, and after some consideration have posted them here rather than in the general 'Help' section in order to target the questions towards the modellers of the Continental scene.

Swiss Colour
Does anyone know of an on-line list which would indicate which (if any) UK model paint colours would be equivalent to the colours used on Swiss stock? In particular I am looking for a reasonable match for the 1980s shades for:
BLS loco brown
BLS carriage blue
BLS carriage cream
SBB carriage green
BLS carriage green (late 1970s)
SBB loco brown (e.g. class Ae3/5)
SBB loco green (e.g. classes Ae 6/6, Ae 4/4", Re 6/6)

I have had a look through my multitude of back issues of 'Swiss Express' but didn't spot such a list - but of course I could have missed it if there is one there. A look on the Swiss Railway Society's web page didn't answer my question either (although I lost a lot of time following some of the links - especially the one which went to a web cam on a MOB loco).

French Numbers
Does anyone know where I could find information of the tender number allocated to a particular steam locomotive number? I need to order some etched plated for my SNCF 231D, and would rather like to have the correct set for the tender too.

With hopeful thanks in advance,

Dave

EDIT - for the DB IC unit, refer to post 20.

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#2 siloch

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 17:21

Hello Dave,

Just a little help for colors :

The green for the loco and carriage is the same in CFF and BLS. (CFF it's in French the same as SBB in German and FFS in Italian; the 3 swiss languages)
It was a "obligatory" color for all the rolling stock in Switzerland according to the directives of the Ministry of Defence (for summary).
But color has varied over time depending on its composition and the presence of lead and other metals.
It's the same for the brown (loco BLS and CFF) but for another reason ; unless I am mistaken it was a color suggested by the manufacturer.
For the BLS blue it's more complicated, because the color has changed not only for it's composition but for design too. Today, the reference is darker than 20 years ago. For the cream is the same phenomenon, it was more yellow before. Today it is almost white.
For all these reasons, it's difficult to find an exact match. I think it's more accurate you look on pictures.
I hope I've helped a bit and sorry for the bad English, but in Switzerland it is not yet a national language !

Laurent
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#3 MikeTrice

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 18:18

I think if you search you will find references for mapping the Swiss colours to RAL references. Then need to map RAL references to model colours.
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#4 DIW

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 18:33

Hello Laurent,

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your answer.

Your English is excellent, far superior to the French and German I have inflicted upon your countrymen!

I did wonder if the BLS blue and cream had officially changed shade through the years (as opposed to darkening and lightening due to weathering effects). Your answer has confirmed my suspicions.

Your comment that the SBB-CFF-FFS and BLS green was a compulsory colour would suggest that there is a specification for the colour - such as a RAL number? Or a Swiss equivalent (possibly military) to RAL number? Do you know if it is the same green as used for Swiss Military vehicles?

Similarly the brown is likely to be a standard RAL colour (I hope).

In the pictures I took during the 1980s the effects of fading were quite severe on some carriages, so I want to find out if I can easily discover the colour 'starting point', and find a suitable match among the paints available to the UK modeller.

Certainly within the UK modelling scene, colours can cause a lot of debate regarding the correct shade (for example, LNER green is one which springs to mind as a somewhat variable colour according to the contributors to the DeAgostini partwork A1 locomotive). If it is possible to tie the shade to the RAL (or military) specifications then all arguments are avoided!

So, thank you again, you have got me thinking along the lines of RAL colours, and prompted me to find the link above to the RAL chart. Your first post on RM Web has helped me to achieve some progress in my enquiry.

Dave

#5 DIW

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 18:45

I think if you search you will find references for mapping the Swiss colours to RAL references. Then need to map RAL references to model colours.


Hi Mike,

That's just where I was going........but I need to find out the RAL numbers first.

There is always the chance that someone has already done it and matched to the UK modelling colours - here's hoping that Brunswick Green or BR (SR) electric stock green is just the job for SBB green! And if BR coach grey matches to BLS grey, and South West Trains blue to BLS blue, then my paintbox is already stocked. However, I am certainly not going to assume that I would be so lucky as to have the particular already to hand.

Of course by going back to the RAL colour route, there is the possibility of having an aerosol made to match by the local car parts centre for each colour required.

Cheers,

Dave

#6 Franco

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 19:26

French Numbers
Does anyone know where I could find information of the tender number allocated to a particular steam locomotive number? I need to order some etched plated for my SNCF 231D, and would rather like to have the correct set for the tender too.

With hopeful thanks in advance,

Dave


I could try asking my french friends but I should know what number is your 231D
Bye
Franco
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#7 DIW

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 20:21

........what number is your 231D


Hi Franco,

Thank you for your reply. My loco is number 231D539, and the year of interest is 1967. Have a look at the pictures here.

My model is being built in this thread - well I say being built, but progress is rather slow!

Thanks for your help.

Dave

#8 siloch

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 23:12

Dave,

The green of the railroad was not the same as the military vehicles.

The CFF and the BLS too use two lines of paint: RAL and NCS (very common in Switzerland).

Here are some color references :

SBB-Rot (Red from the CFF logo)
RAL 3020

SBB-Schwarz (Black : ex. steam locomotive)
RAL 9005

SBB-Weiss (White : ex. CFF reefer car)
RAL 9010

SBB-Schwarzgrau (Dark grey : modern truck of passenger car)
RAL 7021

SBB-Blau (Blue : New color of the cargo locomotive)
RAL 5002

SBB-Anthrazit (Black grey : ex. lower parts of the electric locomotive)
RAL 7016

SBB-Grün (The CFF/BLS green)
NCS* 8010-B90G
No exact RAL reference. The RAL 6009 tannengrün is the closest

SBB-Braun (Brown of the old CFF/BLS)
No RAL or NCS reference

Hellrot (Orange of the Swiss Express locomotive and car)
NCS 1585-Y80R

Steingrau (Light gray of the Swiss Express locomotive and car)
NCS 3005-G80Y, RAL 7030

Feuerrot (Red of the Locomotive)
RAL 3000

Dienstwagenrot (Red brown : old switch engine, now all in red same as locomotive)
RAL 3009

Rotbraun (Red brown : MOW car)
NCS 4060 Y80R

That's all I can give you.
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#9 MikeTrice

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 18:23

Dave,

The green of the railroad was not the same as the military vehicles.

The CFF and the BLS too use two lines of paint: RAL and NCS (very common in Switzerland).

Here are some color references : ......

What he said.

#10 DIW

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 19:04

Hi Laurant,

Wow that is a great list! I had forgotten about the Dienstwagenrot; it is a different colour again.

I have meanwhile been looking through my Claude Jeanmaire books again, trying to find some clues. I have information on all the dates and dimensions of the tunnels and bridges, and the trackbeds (but, curiously, not the height of the catenary mast although I have managed to obtain a reasonable estimate of that). I have looked again at my BLS loco books, and have all the data on size, power, weight of trains at whaich speed uphill, but no colour!

When I had a look at the NCS colour system I found that 'Dulux' brand paint is based on it - which means that I can find the appropriate colour match strip and compare that to the offerings of Railmatch Paints and Precision Paints when I see them at an exhibition.

For the older colours I have found this device. Just need to go back in time with it for the 1980s BLS coaches! Or, use it to measure the colour on HAG, Roco, Lima and Metropolitan models. Then I saw the price of the device!

Another site I found while inspired by your reply is this one. You may already know it, but it will be useful for my fellow UK-based modellers to know of it (tip for English speakers - look via 'Google translate' if you don't read German).

Thank you for your help. :)

Hi Mike,

Yes. ^_^




Cheers,

Dave

#11 Franco

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 19:49

Turned the question to my french friends, waiting for their reply that I'll let you know as soon as I get!
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#12 MikeTrice

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 21:49

Regarding Swiss RAL colours there are a lot of offical documents relating to the RAL colours in the files section of the SwissRailModeling group. Unfortunately you need to join the group to access the documents. Included is a document showing for each colour a model paint equivalent. http://finance.group...ssRailModeling/
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#13 DIW

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 22:47

Hi Mike,

Thanks you for the info on the Yahoo Group. It came up as a hit when I did a Google search a few days ago, but of course I couldn't investigate further without joining. Your comment makes it clear to me that joining is certainly going to be worth while. Thanks again! :P



Hi Franco,

Thanks you for your help. I hope your French friends have the answer. :unsure_mini:

Cheers,

Dave

#14 DIW

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 19:22

Hi Mike,

I joined the Yahoo group to which you referred, and had a good look around the site. The colour chart pages are interesting. The German origin of the RAL system are well used in the chart which gives the RAL numbers for German stock going back years!

I also took note of your information in there on catenary. There were some good pictures of building the catenary arms; they may well come in handy for me - I'm building BLS. I'll need to dig out some pictures of the relevant section of track to see if any of the SBB arms are close enough to the BLS ones for me to make use of the Sommerfeldt arms. I'm on my own for the masts though; the BLS ones are way higher than the SBB's!.

Cheers,

Dave

#15 siloch

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 15:08

Hi Dave,

Remember that the BLS is composed of the meeting of 4 different companies: BN, GBS, SEZ and BLS. Each had different standards for the catenary.
In addition, functions in different times and different suppliers, the height of the masts, and their composition (wood, solid steel, steel braces) were highly varied and sometimes on the same line (based replacements)! For example, there must have 4-5 different types of masts on the BLS Neuchâtel - Bern line.
Today, with standardization, facilities SBB and BLS are nearly identical.

#16 DIW

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 21:21

Hi Laurent,

Yes indeed! Fortunately the part I will model is very specific, on the Spiez - Interlaken section, around 1984. I want to set the season as late spring - early summer (that will be June), when the meadows have many colourful flowers blooming. I also would like to run the SBB Re 4/4" in pop-art livery, so that sets the year as 1984 - as far as I have found it was painted in that livery in July? 1983 and was painted in standard SBB red before June 1985 (was it February?). The DB ICE mark I was also running to Interlaken by that time (I took a picture of the test run ICE in Interlaken West in 1980) so that is another guest appearance I can have.

So, that ties my month and year; I need to check back through my old photographs to check the catenary arms for the relevant section in that year. I more recently made a video survey of the exact stretch of line. The tunnel portals at either end have been reinforced with concrete since my period of interest, but the rest of the retaining walls and banks have stayed more or less the same.

The catenary masts on the single-line sections in the area have always been (within my own limited time) the very tall H-section steel masts. Prior to the opening of the Autoroute around Darligen, the main road (past the station) gave a super view of the catenary as the road climbed alongside the railway on the Interlaken side!

If I had to choose a different location to model, then the SEZ line would be the choice. The timber industry there would give an interesting assortment of trains - though I would be less justified in running the pop-art Re 4/4" and the DB ICE.

Cheers,

Dave

#17 Gordonwis

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 22:06

Hi Laurent,

(I took a picture of the test run ICE in Interlaken West in 1980)



Not possible - surely the ICE didn't exist in 1980.

#18 Gordonwis

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 22:24

.


Found this pic on the web:

http://www.bahnbilde...~Sonstiges.html


I don't seem to have done so much photting around that area in 1984, I was chasing other things - and currently preparing a non- Fotopic location for some of those 1984 pics.
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#19 DIW

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 21:31

Not possible - surely the ICE didn't exist in 1980.


It looks like you are right Gordon, not even the experimental version until 1982 or later (depending on which reports I read). Wonder what it was at Interlaken, then? When I can get to my photos I'll have another look. I am sure about the year the year though because it is the only year I was in a hotel rather than a campsite. Just as well really, there was only half a day in the whole fortnight that it wasn't raining.

Oh well, as long as the pop-art Re4/4" doesn't meet the DB ICE on my layout.........

Found this pic on the web


That is a lovely picture.

Goodness, on second viewing the loco isn't pristine and shiny! :o They couldn't have known that you would be there that day with your camera.

The catenary masts are just as they have been since I can remember - and as they were last time I looked! (2009)


Many thanks for your comments.

Cheers,

Dave

#20 DIW

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 10:31

Wonder what it was at Interlaken, then?


Now, I've retrieved my slides and fired up the slide scanner (pile of dung that thing, sorry about the picture quality) and this is the DB unit:

3-26-2011_001.JPG

3-26-2011_002.JPG

3-26-2011_003.JPG

When I asked about it, I was told that it was being used to test compatibility and gauging. Note the 'IC' logo on the side.

Now, perhaps those in the know could identify it for me?

Cheers,

Dave

#21 Taigatrommel

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 21:14

Hiya,

It's an ET403 "Donald Duck" EMU- there was a small batch of three built, they were tilting trains for speeding up services on traditional lines. DB decided instead to focus on building Neubaustrecke (NBS, new build lines- ie high speed) and Ausbaustrecken (Rebuilt lines) with improved alignments and non-tilt high speed trains- ie the ICE series. The ET403s later worked Lufthansa Airport Express services, operating "flights" between Düsseldorf and Frankfurt M. with tickets sold by the German national airline. They were withdrawn in 1993, and I think today sit rotting on a private railway somewhere in the north of Germany.
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#22 DIW

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 21:47

Hi Rich,

Thank you for your expertise - I wonder why there was all the trouble to arrange test runs with a set with (on the face of it) rather limited use on the route? Perhaps pursuing possible high-end tourism? The route to Interlaken doesn't lend itself to high speed operation! The ICEs used currently do certainly bring capacity, even though they can't use their speed to advantage.

Thanks again for your help.

Cheers,

Dave

#23 Gordonwis

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 22:34

...


some pix here:

http://www.railfaneu...ic/403/pix.html


Lima did an HO model, currently being revived by Hornby International under the Rivarossi label (at five times the price... Modellbahn shop Lippe Euro 330)

original LIma on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.ch/L...C-/230573589590

Last time I saw one was in 2001 (I think) in Lufthansa livery running down the Rhine
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#24 DIW

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 12:46

Hi Gordon,

Thanks for that info too. Hmm, if I see a set at a good price then maybe.......? Not a high priority though!

I see from your posts in other threads that you are an adviser in the SNCF society. Do you by any chance have any information which could help with my question regarding the number of the tender of SNCF 231D539? (posts 1 and 7 above in this thread).

Regards,

Dave

#25 Taigatrommel

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 22:00

Sods law, I just sold an old Lima one! LS Models are also producing one, which was initially slated for release in the first quarter of this year. It makes the revamped ex-Lima one look a bargain though, as it's set to be in excess of 600 Euros!







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