RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted November 26, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2017 Great progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 I looked at the plan and saw all those lines crossing one another and thought of Zulu sidings.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) There must be so much info buried deep in our subconscious, that comes out every so often without you realising it. Saturday mornings in the late 50's/early 60's saw me walking up to Palmers Green Station to take the local N2 or L1 plus a double quad art set to Kings Cross. I can relive that journey in my head like it was yesterday. Out past the old goods yard on the left and goods shed on the right and on towards the island platform of Bowes Park. A quick stop and then it got really interesting as we joined the LNER main line into Kings Cross with the chances of seeing A4's, 3's, 2's and 1's already gathering speed down the straight mile or two from Hornsey. The sound, the smell, the anticipation never leaves you and I still would love a time machine to take me back to those days. It was always the industrial units (Acme Brushes?) on the left that signalled the excitement of what might appear once you emerged from the two tunnels. Apart from the unusual soundtrack this says it all..... I know, filthy dirty and decrepit, but somehow I loved it.... Edited November 26, 2017 by gordon s 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) Forgot to add this link. How about this map from the 1870's of Kings Cross.... There were a lot of changes made way before my time, but interesting to see how it was originally. Never seen so many wagon turntables... Click on the image to enlarge. https://d240vprofozpi.cloudfront.net/co/GNR/kingsx_map1874.png How did the coal shoots work (bottom centre)? They appear to have some form of traverser with just a couple of tracks feeding twenty or so..... Edited November 26, 2017 by gordon s 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) That trackplan... You're never one to lack ambition are you, Gordon? But having seen you try simpler things and lose interest fingers crossed for this one! All the best Jon Edited November 26, 2017 by The Great Bear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted November 26, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2017 Very nice, very relaxing. Thanks. Nothing wrong with the soundtrack other than the film is old world not new! Paul. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 26, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2017 How about this map from the 1870's of Kings Cross.... Hi Gordon, That's great. Should you care to model Kings Cross as it was in the 1890s, Templot can fetch 60"/mile tiled maps of London for that date, and display them correctly scaled for 00 overlays. You can go on adding rows and columns of tiles to any size: click for larger view I purchased a subscription for Templot from the National Library of Scotland to enable this, but it's not guaranteed to be renewed every year! regards, Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) I'll remember that if ever I win the lottery, Martin and we can build it together.. Saints alive, I've just stumbled on this. It's the only photo or piece of film I have ever see that shows the railway at Palmers Green. The goods yard on the left is now Morrisons supermarket and the good shed on the right behind the signal box is where we used to bunk in via a hole in the fence to play in the disused goods shed.All I need is room around 30' long to model the station and yard. Loads of commuter trains and every Sunday when they were working on the ECML, we'd get all the main line traffic via the Hertford North/ Stevevenage loop.Memories....It even has my old grammar school.The railway is from 2.29 and lasts all of 18 seconds or so. Gold dust! Edited November 28, 2017 by gordon s 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted November 26, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2017 The usual problem is where a forward bogie wheel comes off a curve and is hard over, so much so the wheel catches the end of the open blade and you have a derailment. I'm not sure if I'll use the Peco sideplates and I'll need to give some thought as to either cut away the 12mm ply trackbed across each span, or use additional side girder plates below the Peco ones to lose the 12mm trackbed. Very impressive Gordon. I used to get trouble with wheels striking the point blades so I decided to make the gaps slightly overscale. It doesn't really show except in close-up end-on views, although it makes double slips a little trickier than they should be. Have you considered Wills vari-girders for the bridges? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 My trips into London were in the early seventies and through into modernisation and beyond. A fascinating stretch of line. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 I've always had that plan on my desktop and did look at the possibilities of building it, but a fair bit of compression was required and it meant tight curves either end, so it went on the back boiler. I did get into discussion about the yard etc on the LNER forum some time back. Just need a 30' plus room. A bit more and I'd go for Wood Green. The tunnels would make a perfect access to a large set of storage sidings......and you get to build the Khyber Pass. That led to this pic. Just the thing for my railway room. If only...... Going back to the bridge supports/girders, I have looked at the Wills girder sides and also some from the US made by Central Valley, but suspect I will scratch build something along the lines as the lower girder structure can be used to hide the 12mm thick trackbed. Something akin to post number 4 from Baby Deltic.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/21881-plate-girder-bridges/ 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 The tunnels would make a perfect access to a large set of storage sidings......and you get to build the Khyber Pass. One end of the Khyber pass... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 For those of you wondering what the hell we're talking about, here's a pic I managed to find on the web. It's one of a set of 24, so use the < and > marks each side to trawl through a magnificent set of photos. The Khyber Pass was a man made cutting that ran round the side of the Hertford North loop to rejoin the main lines the other side of the flyover shown as 'Down Enfield' in the signalling diagram above. https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/3502444862/in/album-72157617526193082/ I can recall numerous instances like the first pic. An A4 at full chat running down the centre fast line on it's way up north. Almost surprised there isn't a lanky school boy in short trousers and cap in any of the shots as I was there mid week and most weekends when not at the end of Platform 10. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foulounoux Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 That threw me for a moment as being a slightly younger I only knew the loop from the early 70's onwards I initially assumed kings cross was on the left until I read the labels more carefully I had No idea that there were sidings on that side Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 For some odd ball reason i have one of the additional Down Box nameboards from Wood Green Tunnel Box. There was a story in Steam Railway? some many years back of a 9F coming round the Khyber Pass on near full regulator when a gauge glass failed. The crew were seen to bail out by the Tunnel Box bobby who sent 'Train running away right line' ahead to Southgate.. I can't remember the outcome though i think it was fairly undramatic as it may have blown a fusible plug or similar and wheezed to a stand before Southgate. A terrifying prospect though an out of control 9F. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) Hopefully this link will work, but I managed to find a detailed on line OS map showing the full extent of Palmers Green yard and the good shed where we played as kids. Spent ages last night scrolling down the line through Wood Green towards Kings Cross. Amazed at the detail in the plan as when you enlarge the image, the detail is so good you can easily see pointwork and slips. http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.6174&lon=-0.1113&layers=173&b=1 ....and how about this. The coal sidings forever immortalised in The Ladykillers... http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.5428&lon=-0.1208&layers=173&b=1 That's my morning gone.... Edit: What's really special is that you can change the opacity of the overlay to show a current map underneath and now you can also see how the area has changed and where the railway used to go. Off to Alexandra Palace now..... Edited November 28, 2017 by gordon s 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Seems things are progressing, although I've had to do a bit of tweaking with some of my copper clad turnouts. More of that in a minute..... Ferreted around under my workbench this morning looking for a suitable loco for a run out. To save time, I've just hooked up ET to a Gaugemaster twin DC controller, but of course many of my loco's have decoders fitted with DCC only programmed. Managed to find a couple of Hornby loco's and I must say with pick ups on all wheels (including tender wheels) they ran well over semi clean track. I still have much to do, so no point in a deep clean at this stage. First problem I came across was B2B's, but more after this video of Grimsby Town out for a short run. OK, back to pointwork. I like to think I take care in building pointwork, using all the right gauges and an old Bachmann chassis used as a test mule, so it really irks me when you take a selection of 00 loco's fresh out of their boxes and some bounce around when traversing pointwork. I'm not going to lay all the blame at the manufacturers as there is a wealth of difference running a test chassis through pointwork by hand and a loco that has travelled several feet before the turnout and has no hand pressure at all guiding it round. There is no need for gauge widening when you are working on a turnout on it's own, but add a few feet of curved track and the wheels are free to move away from the perfect line and seem to have a mind of their own. Add to that some B2B's of less than 14.40-14.50mm and you have a morning of diagnostics. The biggest benefit of copper clad though is the ability to tweak rails a fraction of a mm once B2B's have been correctly set. I never move the wing rails or check rails as they have been set by gauges and are correct. All the minor adjustments are with the outer rails or the clearance on the end of the point blade. The usual problem is where a forward bogie wheel comes off a curve and is hard over, so much so the wheel catches the end of the open blade and you have a derailment. So after much cussing and checking with a B2B gauge, the iron was turned off and another test run was undertaken. Those of you with acute hearing will hear the odd click as Grimsby Town traverses the pointwork, so I still have some minor adjustments to make. The goal is faultless running and it's man v machine.... Got a whole week or so with no golf, so I might get some more done. If I do, you'll be the first to know..... Gordon Great to see you back and working on the layout, I see you are having problems with the varying wheel standards not only between manufacturers but also between different models within ranges. The problem as you are aware is not your track building, but the inability of the manufacturers to agree a common set of standards/the tolerances now being far to generous. Could even be wheel sets manufactured outside said tolerances. This is one of the reasons I am going down the EM gauge route, which for me is an easy as most of my locos have Romford/Markit wheels and rolling stock is kit built where the wheels can be widened. Sorry you are missing golf, I have not played for nearly 2 years. However with the exception of the front and back gardens the actual building work has now finished there is a bit of woodwork and final electrics to finish, both of which are dependant on the floor coverings being laid (next week) and it is paint brush time and fitting out the railway room time. There is a driving range just outside the village which I will start attending soon, plus 2 very local golf clubs which I will explore once it warms up Back to locos, for 00 gauge I keep an old Mainline J72 where all three wheel sets have differing B2B measurements, this is my test loco. If it will go through an 00sf turnout anything will 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) Back to locos, for 00 gauge I keep an old Mainline J72 where all three wheel sets have differing B2B measurements, this is my test loco. If it will go through an 00sf turnout anything will Hi John, that's an interesting slant on the same issue. Perhaps my fault was going too much the other way. I have a six coupled Bachmann chassis with Markits wheels that I have deliberately taken out nearly all the side play and checked and rechecked the B2B measurement. Perhaps this is so perfect, it's removed from the reality of RTR stock over the years and I'd be a lot better to take a RTR loco out of the box, check the B2B and then use that as a test mule instead. Certainly food for thought. I do find it frustrating when you take a lot of care building something that works perfectly, only to take a RTR loco out and discover all the faults in B2B's etc. At first I blamed myself and altered the track to suit, but now I check the loco first and make minor tweaks to the pointwork if it really is necessary to accommodate differing standards. As I said earlier, the usual problem is coming off a curve and straight into a turnout. In this situation, the wheels are hard against the outer rail and I've discovered that I've not allowed sufficient clearance in the open point blade, so that bogie and tender wheels catch the pointed end of the blade. East to fix, but annoying just the same. Edited December 1, 2017 by gordon s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Hi John, that's an interesting slant on the same issue. Perhaps my fault was going too much the other way. I have a six coupled Bachmann chassis with Markits wheels that I have deliberately taken out nearly all the side play and checked and rechecked the B2B measurement. Perhaps this is so perfect, it's removed from the reality of RTR stock over the years and I'd be a lot better to take a RTR loco out of the box, check the B2B and then use that as a test mule instead. Certainly food for thought. I do find it frustrating when you take a lot of care building something that works perfectly, only to take a RTR loco out and discover all the faults in B2B's etc. At first I blamed myself and altered the track to suit, but now I check the loco first and make minor tweaks to the paintwork if it really is necessary to accommodate differing standards. As I said earlier, the usual problem is coming off a curve and straight into a turnout. In this situation, the wheels are hard against the outer rail and I've discovered that I've not allowed sufficient clearance in the open point blade, so that bogie and tender wheels catch the pointed end of the blade. East to fix, but annoying just the same. Gordon 2 points here, I learnt from an EM gauge modeller several years ago that all the wheels are set to the same B2B with one gauge (hard to do with Romford's) the track is then built to the wheels specification/B2B's 4 mm scale is a compromise which ever gauge is used, I like to stop most of the movement with the axle the motor drives, but have sideways movement with the other(s). The issue with your loco might be there is not be enough side play in the wheels. We cannot exactly copy the prototype I could be wrong but I feel there must be some compromises, especially in situations of smaller size turnouts and crossings and where there are check rails opposite check rails rather than check rails opposite wing rails. One thing I love telling my managers is a favourite quote from the past. "rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools" it will get me in trouble one day or a fat nose 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 5BarVT Posted November 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2017 That's my morning gone.... What's really special is that you can change the opacity of the overlay to show a current map underneath and now you can also see how the area has changed and where the railway used to go. Off to Alexandra Palace now..... It's a brilliant site isn't it. I have 'used up' many hours following old railways. I once gave the website details to a SouthEastern driver manager and the next day he said 'I got nothing done last night'.Happy wanderings, Paul. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2017 the usual problem is coming off a curve and straight into a turnout. In this situation, the wheels are hard against the outer rail and I've discovered that I've not allowed sufficient clearance in the open point blade, so that bogie and tender wheels catch the pointed end of the blade. East to fix, but annoying just the same. Hi Gordon, When I suggested using a 20p coin (1.8mm) to set the switch opening for 4-SF (00-SF), the assumption was that the track gauge through the switch would be 16.2mm. I believe you use 16.5mm gauge through the switches? In which case you need a slightly wider opening around 2.1mm. Which just happens to be the thickness of a new 10p coin (the older ones are thinner). regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) Ah, that explains things.... Off to get some change.... You've got it in one. I do use a 20p piece, but had completely forgotten that I open it up to 16.5mm within a few inches of the crossing. I have found this an issue before, but only when coming off a curve and straight into a turnout on the curve. Of course all I've done is to move the switch blade inboard and that solves the problem. It fascinating to watch exactly how a wheel behaves under good light in slow motion and thanks to the input from your good self, John and various others, I do understand the relationship between wheels, check rails and gaps, so generally a few minutes with a soldering iron means I can tweak things slightly to get smooth running. Add to this a set of Hornby tender wheels with pick ups that measured fine, but still tripped up and I now check just how true wheels run on their axles. I have got some work done today on the shed access roads and the three line over bridge, but spent far too much time looking at those blooming' maps, not only in terms of track layouts, but really seeing how things have changed over 60 years. I was really chuffed to find that old black building on the left as you start to get close to KX was indeed the Acme Brush Company. Why is it I can remember something I saw the best part of 60 years ago, but now struggle to recall what happened this morning...... ...and how about this? http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.36333333333333&lat=51.5561&lon=-0.1081&layers=173&b=1 Change the transparency and you can see just how much railway infrastructure was taken away over the years in this area. Of course it now houses the Emirates Stadium. Bloomin' Arsenal.... Had fun retracing my steps out of KX and down Cheney Road, Battle Bridge Road and round the gas works. Up Camley Street past the coal drops and then over the Oblique Bridge to drop down to the towpath and bunk into the shed when no one was looking...... Happy Days! Edited November 28, 2017 by gordon s 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 There must be so much info buried deep in our subconscious, that comes out every so often without you realising it. Saturday mornings in the late 50's/early 60's saw me walking up to Palmers Green Station to take the local N2 or L1 plus a double quad art set to Kings Cross. I can relive that journey in my head like it was yesterday. Out past the old goods yard on the left and goods shed on the right and on towards the island platform of Bowes Park. A quick stop and then it got really interesting as we joined the LNER main line into Kings Cross with the chances of seeing A4's, 3's, 2's and 1's already gathering speed down the straight mile or two from Hornsey. The sound, the smell, the anticipation never leaves you and I still would love a time machine to take me back to those days. It was always the industrial units (Acme Brushes?) on the left that signalled the excitement of what might appear once you emerged from the two tunnels. Apart from the unusual soundtrack this says it all..... I know, filthy dirty and decrepit, but somehow I loved it.... https://youtu.be/AvwdYv5Int8 What's amazing is seeing how many ppl are running across/walking across the tracks- simply amazing! Network Rail would go mad! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted November 28, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2017 Had fun retracing my steps out of KX and down Cheney Road, Battle Bridge Road and round the gas works. Up Camley Street past the coal drops and then over the Oblique Bridge to drop down to the towpath and bunk into the shed when no one was looking...... Hi Gordon, You might like to try OpenStreetMap as a background: http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.5564&lon=-0.1088&layers=173&b=4 The thing about OpenStreetMap is that you can edit it yourself. Which can get very addictive. I have spent many hours updating details for my local area, when I should have been working on Templot. All these NLS maps can be imported automatically into Templot backgrounds and scaled to match your track gauge, either as tiled maps, or screenshots. They can also be printed out as part of your templates. For seeing the spread of branch lines across the country in the 1950s, the 25K maps give a good overview (equivalent of the modern OS Explorer maps): http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=51.9996&lon=-0.9989&layers=10&b=6 regards, Martin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Here's a box diagram for FP1... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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