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Waverley passenger train formations and diagrams


DaveArkley
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After trying to squeeze a 2mm scale St Boswells into my availble space, I've given up trying for a prototype and have fallen on the mythical station on a real line approach.

 

I'm planning to build 'Cruikglen', a station in a similar location to Hawick which never really existed. I do plan to run two timetables based on Waverley traffic. One will be based around 1956/57..the second around 1964/65.

 

 

 

I've done some research on the passenger train formations of the time:

 

 

St Pancras - Waverley 1955 21:05 from St Pancras - A3 hauled on Waverley

 

All Stanier stock

 

 

Full brake

 

Sleeping composite

 

Sleeping composite

 

Sleeping third

 

Sleeping first

 

Corridor composite

 

Corridor composite

 

Corridor third

 

Corridor third

 

Corridor third

 

Full brake

 

 

St Pancras -Waverley 1964 21:20 from St Pancras - Peak hauled on Waverley

 

All Mark 1 stock

 

 

Full brake

 

Sleepingsecond

 

Sleepingfirst

 

Compositecorridor

 

Compositecorridor

 

Secondcorridor

 

Secondcorridor

 

Secondcorridor

 

Full brake

 

 

Anyone disagree with this so far, and can you guys point me to references for other through and stopping train formations in the appropriate years.

 

 

Thanks in advance

Dave

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From Photos the 'standard' formation for stopping services on the Waverley Route seems to have been:

Brake 2nd + composite + second + brake 2nd [often with a few 4 wheel vans attached to the rear]

 

The are some formations on the Edinburgh & Lothians Website. Except for the Waverley/ Thames Forth Express & the sleeper ones they are from photos so I can't guarantee they're 100% accurate, but your sleeper formations seem to match the ones given. One thing to note about both the St Pancas through trains is they reversed at Leeds. So if the formation given is at London the leading end of the train there will be the rear on the Waverley Route.

 

Note: The non Waverley Route trains on the above page are from printed sources.

 

Jeremy

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From Photos the 'standard' formation for stopping services on the Waverley Route seems to have been:

Brake 2nd + composite + second + brake 2nd [often with a few 4 wheel vans attached to the rear]

 

The are some formations on the Edinburgh & Lothians Website. Except for the Waverley/ Thames Forth Express & the sleeper ones they are from photos so I can't guarantee they're 100% accurate, but your sleeper formations seem to match the ones given. One thing to note about both the St Pancas through trains is they reversed at Leeds. So if the formation given is at London the leading end of the train there will be the rear on the Waverley Route.

 

Note: The non Waverley Route trains on the above page are from printed sources.

 

Jeremy

 

 

Thanks Jeremy, thats a really useful link

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  • 5 weeks later...
Guest Max Stafford

This gen couldn't have arrived at a better time for me thanks. A little compression will be required for my own purposes but all very, very useful. Your modelling periods more or less coincide as my own! :yes:

 

Dave.

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  • 3 weeks later...

With Dave A's passenger formations suitably morphed into the wider WR passenger services thread, I have been doing a bit of photographic reserach into diagrams over the line.

 

What seems to have been a general rule is that the loco working the 1M10 0930 Edinburgh - Carlisle 'Waverley' portion of the Up Thames-Clyde, load 4, would work back on 1S65, the1538 Carlisle - Edinburgh portion of the same day's Down Thames-Clyde/ Forth.

 

For example, on 28th December 1968, we have pictures of eBFYE 1536 working 1M10 and 1S65. This soon-to-be-RTR loco has gathered a bit of a cult following on the WR! Two days before, she (or sister 1547) had worked the Boxing Day special Hawick - Edinburgh that ran in place of 1S65 (was there no service in England but a limited service in Scotland?)

 

A week earlier, on 21st December 1968, we see D192 work 1M10 0930 Edinburgh - Carlisle portion, and 1S65 the 1538 back. This involved the Peak with the unique depot special squared-off headcode - at one end only - by a process of elimination. On the same day 5069 worked the 0920 2S52, and 5315 the 1300 2S52. On the last Friday of all, these two were powered by 5311 and 5131 respectively.

 

On 4th January '69 D160 took the last 1S65, I'm guessing she worked the penultimate 1M82 up sleeper and in so-doing left the Waverley for the last time.

 

There are a couple more sightings that I believe we can attribute loco id's to now, with a degree of certainty. The anonymous, random headcode eBFYE Brush at Melrose I'm now claiming as D1547 on 1M10 on 31st December, as we see her again at Stainton on 1S65 that afternoon. On 24th December I'm prepared to believe that 1S65 seen at Stainton is powered by named D89, and that is actually the date of the undated shot of the same loco heading south at Lochpark on 1M10, that morning.

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With the advent of new Graham Farish mk1s I'm keen to adopt a new rake, some of the above postings give me a good idea and actually confirm some of the likely stock used in a mk1 rake.

 

However, I'm certainly not a coaching guru and need as much advice as possible.

 

So unfortunately I am restricted to rakes of probably 6 carriages due to (who said N gauge was great for long trains!! :() space and storage siding restrictions.

 

So question is what services would have constituted 6 carriages or 7 at an absolute push.

 

General context of the question is north end of the line, mid to late 60s.

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1967-68, winter timetables enable you to accommodate everything except the Sleepers, which loaded to 8 or 9. The Waverley had been reduced to a portion to and ex-Carlisle that loaded to 4 bogies with Type 4 superpower - real stuff of trainsets but with genuine prototype inspiration! These were ironically the same length as or shorter than the semi-fasts 2M52 and 2S52, which routinely had a CCT or other scabby looking rascal of a parcel truck in the mix. 1M01 and 1S65 presumably rocketed along the line, turning in some of the best passenger performances on record.

 

Northern end, don't forget you have the first Hawick - Edinburgh, the 0658, which was a loco kick-out on I guess load four again - await clarification on that point. The remainder of your short-haul stuff that way is Met-Camm or Gloucester.

 

Summer timetables, even in the line's twilight years, give you a full-fat Waverley that's technically 8 coaches max, but can be a justified and prototypical 7. As a rule of thumb you'll want to differentiate your class 1 from the semis while still accommodating her snugly in the fiddle yard, so I'd be for loading the Waverley to 6 bogies and 2X52 to load three plus van.

 

Dave will possibly be along shortly to push back the era to the early decade. B) Meanwhile, I'll get you the exact consist for 1S64 as it was during the Last Summer.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Max Stafford

Some observations conducted from photographs;

 

15/04/1961:Edinburgh-Carlisle Class 1 Loco (A1 60162), PMV, GUV, BSK, SK(?,)CK, SK(?,)BSK. (All pass stock Mk1).

 

02/09/1960: 3:22 (PM) Carlisle-Edinburgh: Loco (A1 60159), (Gres)BSK, (Mk1)CK, (Gres)SK, (Gres)BSK, 12t swinger.

 

14/06/1958: 2:36 (PM) Carlisle-Edinburgh: Loco (A3 60095), BSK, CK, SK, BSK, (all Gresley), Thompson non-gangwayed composite.

 

Mk1s seem to become, well, standard from 1963 onward.

 

It was by no means uncommon in the steam era to have a non-gangwayed vehicle tucked in behind the loco, usually a Gresley type but as illustrated above Thompsons too.

 

Hawick - Carlisle services in this period could produce all manner of LNER and latterly LMS non-gangwayed vehicles.

 

Dave

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  • 2 weeks later...

Page 48 in BR to BEECHING VOL 3 The Routes of the Thompson & Peppercorn Pacifics has a pic of A2/1 60507 Highland Chieftain at Caldew Jct Carlisle with a mid-morning London to Edinburgh express, it is dated 1949/50 & most of the formation of ex L.M.S coaches are still in Crimson Lake but the 3rd coach in is an L.M.S design porthole composite in Blood & Custard , also in the formation is an ex L.M.S pre-war 12 wheel dining car in the same livery .

 

On the same page is a pic of A2 60535 Hornets Beauty dep Carlisle in Sept 1963 with a mid-afternoon 4 coach stopping train to Edinburgh .

 

Stewart .

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  • 2 months later...

The elusive school train.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The school train stopped running the summer of 1962. I started at the High School in 1963. Paul's brother Tony was the year above me and he was in the first year on the buses.

 

Another person you could ask about the school trains is Sandra Inglis, who lives in details removed to protect personal data in Newcastleton. She might have been the year above Paul Davidson.

 

The train left the Holm at 08.00 ( I can provide you with times taken from a copy of the working timetable which I have at home).

 

As I understand it one of the locos came off banking duties and worked the school/ workers train between Newcastleton and Hawick. The return working of the coaches was on the 18.15 from Hawick, which was mainly used by mill workers returning home in the evening. According to the working timetable I have, after dropping the coaches in Newcastleton yard, the loco ran light to Carlisle.

 

About 1961, the railway cut the service on the Waverley route - a pair of Edinbrugh-Carlisle trains was taken off including the one which left The Holm about 4pm and took school children up to Steele Road, Riccarton and Whitrope (after the closure of Riccarton School). There was even somebody who travelled form Shankend to school in the Holm. After this point, the few Riccarton kids had to catch a train home about 2pm. But the Patterson family moved to Newcastleton (Thomas Patterson still lives in Newcastleton, so you could ask him about Riccarton school). I can give you approximate dates when people left Riccarton, gleaned from the Valuation Rolls.

 

Back to the school train. About 1961, I think the mill times changed, and the trains no longer suited the workers. Nichols started running what we called the workers' Bus - 08.00 from the Holm and returning at 17.15. There was also another Workers Bus run by Dodman's Garage. It left the Holm at 07.00 and also returned at 17.15. Rob Wilson was one of the drivers and he still lives in the Holm. I think the 0700 bus worked back to the Holm and opicked up school kids from the Hermitage area for Newcastleton School. And wiorked from The Holm to Hawick via Hermitage with school kids in the afternoon. I think Dennis Elliot was the driver.

 

 

Now, it gets more complicated. The Workers' Bus signalled the end of commuting by trains. All the remaining workers deserted the train, and the evening Hawick to Newcastleton train was withdrawn. At this point the school train was reduced to a single coach, leaving the Holm at 08.00, It returned to the Holm on a mid afternoon freight train and was dumped off in the siding. This was the situation immediately prior to the withdrawal of the school train in 1962.

 

Starting in August 1962, the Council had the problem of how to get the Riccarton kids to school in Hawick. So they attached a coach to a Kingmoor - Millerhill freight. It used to go through The Holm about 7.20, and picked up at Riccarton about 07.53. I think the coach must have returned on an afternoon freight. This arrangement lasted for two or three years, but by 1965 or '66, there was nobody left at Riccarton. I can give you details of this.

 

My father said that Baroness Elliott was to blame for the demise of the school train and therefore of the Waverley route. You might ask him about this.

 

Ironically, if the school train had still been running when the Newcastleton school secondary department shut, it would have been picking up about 60 or 70 passengers each day. They could have run the 0920 ex Carlisle a couple of hours early. but I guess that was too creative for those days.

 

There were 2 school buses in my day. A fat bus leaving at 08.00, and the 'Country Bus- which left at 07.50. One bus sat in the school playground overnight ( it was always freezing in the winter, and disgustingly flithy). The two drivers came down on a bus from Hawick leaving about 07.00 and this bus carried a few passnegers e.g. school teachers working in the Holm who lived in Hawick. In the evening, they returned on one bus about 5pm

Edited by 'CHARD
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Roy, that is an incredible contribution, and rewards repeat reading. Thank you.

 

I hope you don't mind, but to keep us street legal I have removed the details of one contact to protect their personal data somewhat. I also took the liberty of running a rule over some speeling mistooks, I guess the tail end had been hurriedly typed.

 

However, one thing I didn't amend was reference to the 'fat bus.' I'm assuming this was local slang for - a double-decker?

 

The period that interests me is when the single coach was going up and down the route tucked inside the loco on freight trains. But I know fine well that several others - no, read a baying mob of reivers - will be along shortly to dissect the info for period ending July '62. This is fantastic stuff.

Edited by 'CHARD
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Referance is made to Baroness Elliot. One of the reasons the schools and other facilites in the Borders were in such a poor state of repair was that the the noble lady and her ilk saw it as their duty to avoid spending public money in the Borders.

 

This may have been why our local general hospital was untill the early 1980's a ramshackle series of huts built during the Great War in the middle of nowhere.

 

 

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Pre-Grouping working arrangements.

 

From a detailed examination of working timetables it would seem that there was a major reconfiguration of workings around the time of WW1. Prior to that it would seem that with the exception of the three, yes three, Midland expresses, trains from Carlisle terminated at Riccarton, and a shuttle service operated thence to Hawick. Similarly with the Border Counties, hence Riccarton was a more significant shed than Hawick with a bigger allocation. So that I can pinpoint the date of change can anyone help me with copies of WTTs from 1910 to 1923?

 

roygraham

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  • 3 weeks later...

A link from Chris to 68E in the '50s took me back to IrishSwissErnie's collection and this old favourite:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5793667319/

 

This is truly the master-shot that just keeps on giving. Hidden in plain view is a highly unexpected sight: that the leading vehicle is in fact a bun-truck. For some reason I was struck by the ghosting of some lettering amidships on the blue lower bodyside, then I noticed the central door and lack of windows. Rather glad now, as this provides the perfect excuse to vary the consist of 1M91 and include catering.

 

>> skips with joy towards the shortbread <<

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Too damn right she does, in fact I didn't think there was catering on 1M91 - will have to re-check the extract I have from the LM formation book. Certainly their absence tends to bear this out in photos. In the equivalent winter portion, 1M01 aka 1M10, it was definitely absent, as the load was normally the same as a Class 2, without characteristic head or tail traffic.

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Guest Max Stafford

Nice. I'm also curious as to the identity of the 0-6-0 in the background. It looks more like a J35 than J36 though.

 

Dave.

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